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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24462257 -

Yeah and I'm with you there. My experience with antifascist action is that it is mostly focused on preventing the public expression of such ideology.

The main departure is that I don't believe in the effectiveness of the carceral state, nor do I have a desire to rely on police protection. Direct action baby.

Yes, this has the potential to devolve into vigilante lynch mobs - not ideal - but I don't think that the police force is free of fault either. I prefer the option that doesn't reduce my ability to act.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #24462273 -

This is why I dont like decentralized groups though, the outliers should never get in the group, or they should be kicked out and disowned by officials from a group. Along with having rules about when one type of action or another is justified.

Violence or disruption though, is impossible to justify in the US atm. There are no centralized violent fascists here, only the occasional drunk skinhead or some such. If we had a serious problem and the gov did nothing about it, then I would definitely condone it being ended by non-government entities, but nothing remotely close to that exists out here and a few racist/fascist groups are on terrorist watch lists

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24462370 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Yeah and I'm with you there. My experience with antifascist action is that it is mostly focused on preventing the public expression of such ideology.

The main departure is that I don't believe in the effectiveness of the carceral state, nor do I have a desire to rely on police protection. Direct action baby.


:facepalm:

I hope that you enjoy figuring out what "direct action" actually entails, way too late for that knowledge to actually do you any good.  This incompetent, childish bullshit is exactly why Antifa is doing way more harm than good.  Antifa isn't protecting anything.  They're just egging on violent confrontations that they are neither prepared for nor that they appear capable of even comprehending in the first place.  I mean jesus, Antifa can't even hit people with a stick the right way.  They'd be torn up like thin shit if any of the people they attacked actually knew how to play hit-with-stick.  A hot day is probably enough to take out a lot of the people in the Antifa crowd though.  Most people (in general) these days appear to be too stupid to even avoid dehydration, left to their own devices.

Antifa must put a lot of effort into finding a way to give the Trumpsters the moral highground, in my opinion.  Otherwise it's possible that it just comes naturally to the people who get wrapped up in that crap.

Edited by chibiabos (07/06/17 06:36 PM)

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24462389 -

Repertoire89 said:
If you're with family (like your kids or wife), I think someone making threats or pulling a knife justifies lethal force. Not sure how that translates.

Its all pretty difficult to determine


Yeah...You usually have to put a lot of effort into getting somebody to pull a weapon out on you.  This is veering into "twenty-seven ninjas" territory.  I say that it's veering in that direction because somehow you've got it in your head that homicide (which will probably end up just being straight up murder) is a proportional response to somebody belching mean, scary words at you.  Even if they follow you there are so fucking many ways to deal with it that will:
  • Hurt less

    and

  • Make life a lot less complicated

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Mad_Larkin]
    #24462475 -

I accept your surrender.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: ANTIFA [Re: chibiabos]
    #24462502 -

People kill strangers without any provocation all the time.

Its a matter of context, and as far as having to protect kids go, the line is moved. I wasnt afraid when either knife was pulled on me, words were enough to deescalate the situation, but if someone were to threaten my kid and I had reason to take them serious, yeah that may justify lethal force.

Its hard to imagine a scenario where that would be necessary, my point being more that you can take more risks with yourself than with the lives of people you're responsible for.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24462507 -

Repertoire89 said:
People kill strangers without any provocation all the time.


Very rarely.

And acting like having a weapon somehow reduces danger when you're doing risky things means that your family is not safer on account of you being armed and willing kill somebody.  Having a gun isn't going to stop somebody from ambushing you.  Fortunately you're pretty unlikely to be ambushed.  Your more likely to shoot your dick off than you are to be ambushed.

Edited by chibiabos (07/06/17 06:24 PM)

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: chibiabos]
    #24462527 -

chibiabos said:
Repertoire89 said:
People kill strangers without any provocation all the time.


Very rarely.



In civilian US maybe, I never limited the scope of context.
This is a general moral question, which could cover genocidal massacres to terrorists, muggers and serial killers

People kill without provocation all the time in the grand scheme of things, if you want to dismiss the possibility, why discuss the subject at all? We were talking about potentially violent encounters.



As far as gun control, make another thread, this is already straying off topic enough.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24462557 -

Repertoire89 said:
In civilian US maybe


Pour vous.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: chibiabos]
    #24462569 -

You know there are courses for reading comprehension out there, you could be reading adult literature in only a few years.

Yes there is a world out there, the holocaust was real, so was the genocide in Rawanda and 911, none of those people asked for it. Not to mention your every day mugging gone wrong.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: chibiabos]
    #24462767 -

chibiabos said:
  They're just egging on violent confrontations that they are neither prepared for nor that they appear capable of even comprehending in the first place.  I mean jesus, Antifa can't even hit people with a stick the right way.  They'd be torn up like thin shit if any of the people they attacked actually knew how to play hit-with-stick.  A hot day is probably enough to take out a lot of the people in the Antifa crowd though.  Most people (in general) these days appear to be too stupid to even avoid dehydration, left to their own devices.



I've noticed this as well, and critiqued it in another thread.  Both the dumbshit ninja team, and the scumbag biker team are terrible at melee combat tactics.  They all need to either hang it up, or read a few books.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24462874 -

I dunno, I thought Based Stickman's method was pretty effective :rofl:


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: schwarg]
    #24462946 -

both sides are ineffective at fighting as a group.  The best I've seen or read about either side doing is to attempt to isolate targets and drag them behind the lines.  I also read about a ninja leading a biker who was chasing him into an ambush.  If they insist on fighting it out with sticks and shields, they should learn a few formations and use them.  Same thing if it escalates further.  If everyone insists, they should at least learn to do it right.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24463269 -

ballsalsa said:
both sides are ineffective at fighting as a group.  The best I've seen or read about either side doing is to attempt to isolate targets and drag them behind the lines.  I also read about a ninja leading a biker who was chasing him into an ambush.  If they insist on fighting it out with sticks and shields, they should learn a few formations and use them.  Same thing if it escalates further.  If everyone insists, they should at least learn to do it right.


Then one man brings a gun and fires then everyone brings guns, enjoy the lethal street riots.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24463298 -

Cinnamon said:
ballsalsa said:
both sides are ineffective at fighting as a group.  The best I've seen or read about either side doing is to attempt to isolate targets and drag them behind the lines.  I also read about a ninja leading a biker who was chasing him into an ambush.  If they insist on fighting it out with sticks and shields, they should learn a few formations and use them.  Same thing if it escalates further.  If everyone insists, they should at least learn to do it right.


Then one man brings a gun and fires then everyone brings guns, enjoy the lethal street riots.


I'm not in favor of that, but if that's how it has to be, then they should take the time to learn how to do it right.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #24463320 -

ballsalsa said:
Cinnamon said:
ballsalsa said:
both sides are ineffective at fighting as a group.  The best I've seen or read about either side doing is to attempt to isolate targets and drag them behind the lines.  I also read about a ninja leading a biker who was chasing him into an ambush.  If they insist on fighting it out with sticks and shields, they should learn a few formations and use them.  Same thing if it escalates further.  If everyone insists, they should at least learn to do it right.


Then one man brings a gun and fires then everyone brings guns, enjoy the lethal street riots.


I'm not in favor of that, but if that's how it has to be, then they should take the time to learn how to do it right.




ENGAGE PHALANX


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24463992 -

ballsalsa said:
both sides are ineffective at fighting as a group.  The best I've seen or read about either side doing is to attempt to isolate targets and drag them behind the lines.  I also read about a ninja leading a biker who was chasing him into an ambush.  If they insist on fighting it out with sticks and shields, they should learn a few formations and use them.  Same thing if it escalates further.  If everyone insists, they should at least learn to do it right.


Although I don't know for sure as I'm not located in the States, I suspect that a large majority of people who have been participating in antifascist action since Trumps election are young and inexperienced with this type of direct action. The "antifa" name has received widespread attention since the inauguration, not only to people on the right but also those on the left who may agree with the approach.

I think this because I agree, there has been too much sloppiness from antifa groups in the USA recently.

Although I'm glad that those opposed to antifa seem set on convincing others (and themselves) that antifa is solely composed of skinny kids, as under estimating your opposition only hurts you, for the benefit of this thread I want to point out that anarchists have been engaging in street fighting for decades; not only against other civilians but often the police and other state forces as well. It would be ludicrous to think that nothing has been learned from these actions.

If you're interested in reading some radical literature on the topic, Bodyhammer: Tactics and Self-Defense for the Modern Protestor is a short pamphlet that gets into to the creation and use of shields, as well as proper group formations. A more indepth view can be found with the Black Bloc Tactics Communiqué by the Anti-Racist Action & The Green Mountain Anarchist Collective.

Medieval warfare is definitely being mined from useful tactics. I wonder if Cinnamon understands how apt that picture is. 

But, of course, much of this knowledge hasn't been seen in many of the recent antifascist demonstrations in the USA. Mostly just chaotic street melees and bravado. This hasn't gone unnoticed and the inexperienced individuals are learning; both from taking part in actions both successful and unsuccessful, as well as listening to the old timers that they have likely made connections with. If you notice, the near weekly street brawls have died down. The fourth of July just passed, did you hear of any street fights? I assure you the 'trolls' were out there goading for one. 

You've seen how the alt-right protests have developed over the months, why would you assume anarchists would be static in their approach. Lack of hierarchy may have its disadvantages, but stagnancy definitely isn't one.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #24464036 -

You idolize this group far too much.

there's absolutely nothing admirable about what they do.
You say the roman formation picture is apt, except for the inconvenient problem in order to pull of any kind of tactics requires leadership and organization, two things anarchists don't understand or utilize.

So you end up with a cluster of aimless individuals, no one to direct the energy, so what do they do?
Trash the street, attack at random.


I saw a hilarious video of ANTIFA attacking a supporter of their own group because they mistook him for a Trump supporter, he ended up pleading with them he was a Bernout lol.

That group needs to dissolve, there's no legitimate reason for its existence apart from providing angsty kids an excuse to lash out and destroy things people worked hard to attain.


If these protests continue it is a matter of time before it becomes armed conflict in the streets and I hate to say it but there's probably many more people proficient with weapons on the right, than the left and the problem is the anarchists will have to come up with more lethal means to catch up.

It's really sitting at the point of the 'shot heard around the world', takes one retard to start shooting and it all kicks off, LA riots 2.0.


Humanity had anarchy before, it didn't work, it's how we arrived at civilization with leadership and organization.
How you think devolving back into it will work I have no idea.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24464060 -

Repertoire89 said:
This is why I dont like decentralized groups though, the outliers should never get in the group, or they should be kicked out and disowned by officials from a group. Along with having rules about when one type of action or another is justified.


This does exist, to some extent. An obvious example would be anarchist resistance to infiltration from agent provocateurs and snitches. Behaviour that continually undermines the objective would also, I can only assume, be rejected. The response doesn't come from an overseeing figurehead though, rather it will be through community response that this will happen. For example, in the case of government agents, trusted communication networks (built over time by working with other affinity groups) are used to spread the message around once a local group discovers the tumor in their own community, allowing for a coordinated movement-wide response.

In the case of antifascist members acting out by indiscriminately attacking other people, cross-network shunning likely won't be the first response, instead you can expect the rest of the affinity group to address the issue with their own solution. In the case of an individual ignoring this, or an entire affinity group practicing indiscriminate violence, you can expect an eventually movement-wide shun will happen.

As for rules, don't expect a law book full of rules to ever find widespread acceptance amongst anarchists, but that doesn't mean basic notions of what is acceptable and what is unacceptable don't exist. But, I think when you say rules about whether one action or another is justified, you are referring to the dichotomy of nonviolent and violent action. There is an anarchist concept of diversity of tactics that says such a distinction is impossible to make. Nonviolence is more desirable than violence as a means, but the choice of means will almost never be pure, and will involve such complexities that the simple distinction between violence and nonviolence does not suffice as a guide. The degree of disorder in civil disobedience should not be weighed against a false ‘peace’ presumed to exist in the status quo, but against the real disorder and violence that are part of daily life, overtly expressed internationally in wars, but hidden locally under that facade of ‘order’ which obscures the injustice of contemporary society.

It's an involved topic that deserves its own thread but if you're interested the book Disobedience and Democracy: Nine Fallacies on Law and Order is probably a classic text on the subject. Even the more recent communiqué, The Coming Insurrection says "Weapons are necessary: it’s a question of doing everything possible to make using them unnecessary…the prospect of Iraq-style urban guerilla warfare, dragging on with no possibility of taking the offensive, is more to be feared than to be desired. The militarization of civil war is the defeat of insurrection".

Quote:
Violence or disruption though, is impossible to justify in the US atm. There are no centralized violent fascists here, only the occasional drunk skinhead or some such. If we had a serious problem and the gov did nothing about it, then I would definitely condone it being ended by non-government entities, but nothing remotely close to that exists out here and a few racist/fascist groups are on terrorist watch lists


Since January, white supremacist extremists conducted four attacks, one plot, and three stockpiling incidents across the United States. Also since January, the Federal government cut funds for groups that counter violent white supremacy, seeking to shift focus on violent Islamists.

It may not seem like a problem to you, but to the folks that are being targeted, it is a problem. Statistically, one death isn't a major thing, but one death is major to the community that suffers it.

At what extent would you consider it to have finally become a problem?


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24464079 -

Cinnamon said:
You idolize this group far too much.


I could care less about the antifa label, it's the underlying tactics I embrace.

Quote:
You say the roman formation picture is apt, except for the inconvenient problem in order to pull of any kind of tactics requires leadership and organization, two things anarchists don't understand or utilize.


You can believe that if you want, but non-hierarchical leadership and organization is possible. Look at what's happening in Hamburg right now. Probably 30,000 militants working together, including coordinating food, transport, and sleeping arrangements. Do you really think this would be possible with zero organization or leadership roles?


Quote:
Humanity had anarchy before, it didn't work, it's how we arrived at civilization with leadership and organization.
How you think devolving back into it will work I have no idea.


Anarchism doesn't refer to a static concept. Methods of hierarchical organization have evolved, so too have non-hierarchical methods. Hierarchical leadership and organization have been fraught with abuses, corruption, and exploitation. I see no reason to cling to it as a paragon of civilization, nor do I see any reason to conclude outright the anarchy will be a devolution.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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