Bubbles85 said:

Tip, regarding you're point about refugees dying in the med. That is  not the fault of the EU and should not be considered as such. It annoys me when i see this plastered all over left wing media programming, all most blaming the EU for these deaths.

Using guilt to force people to accept the views of "leaders" like Merkel.

Like i said, Turkey is not at war and is a safe country for these people to stay in. No one is forcing them to come to Europe, they seek out people traffickers by choice and make that journey of their own free will.

There are many country's in the immediate vicinity of Syria that are safe. These people do not need to put their lives and the lives of their family's in danger, by getting in those boats to attempt to come to Europe.

---

qman said:

It's a calculated risk many are willing to take, but it's still a choice rather than a desperate act to save their life.

---

Bubbles85 said:

I've got to say that i agree with you're point of view here. I think that the EU are being forced to pay a very high price for some thing that may not even work.

The worst part, is not the financial aspect, but the fact that Turkey are using this crisis to push for EU state membership and visa free travel for its citizens within the EU.

This could potentially prove to be the biggest threat of all, to European national security, given the current flow of Islamic State terrorists in the region.

The Turkish government are known to be turning a blind eye to Jihadists in the country and giving these people free movement around Europe is a big mistake.

---

Bubbles85 said:

Tip, regarding you're point about refugees dying in the med. That is  not the fault of the EU and should not be considered as such. It annoys me when i see this plastered all over left wing media programming, all most blaming the EU for these deaths.

Using guilt to force people to accept the views of "leaders" like Merkel.

---

Quote:

Like i said, Turkey is not at war and is a safe country for these people to stay in. No one is forcing them to come to Europe, they seek out people traffickers by choice and make that journey of their own free will.

There are many country's in the immediate vicinity of Syria that are safe. These people do not need to put their lives and the lives of their family's in danger, by getting in those boats to attempt to come to Europe.

---

Tipote said:

what was said in that video was actually accurate. The British have invaded more than half the world

its not an irrelevant point. Its true that the industrial revolution was built largely on the backs of colonial resource theft. Apparently youre in denial too.

Britain has actually played a huge role in fuelling extremism in ex colonial states, its not necessarily all of Britains fault obviously.

The women speaking does speak English, but they speak Urdu in their Urdu meet ups (many Urdu speakers speak like 4 other languages fluently). I go to French meet ups, doesnt mean I cant speak English.
There were people of mixed ability there but what they were all saying was that people should learn English. The point she made was a wider one about the nation being in denial of its history. Immigration has enriched our countries historically. But the negatively perceived legacy of immigration is remembered more than the negative legacy of colonialism. we cant talk about colonialism because you can only see it in different grades of white guilt.

Demonising communities helps nothing for integration. Saying that they are oppressed because they wear the veil or just because they are muslim women, is ffar from accurate. Reaching out to these communities goes a long way. A great point was made in the video about trying to combat terrorism among these communities with that website they were shown.. but if its all in English and the people are told that a lack of English leads to extremism then whats the fucking point of that website?

---

qman said:

Again, why does a person choose to move to a country that they hate so much?  They don't like it's history, culture, or current polices, yet they still live there with their families.

---

who said they hated the UK???

LOL so, if you dont like something you should leave? Dissent is not allowed? There is nothing about the US history, culture of current policies that you dont like??

Quote:

Once they have the nice Western lifestyle without assimilating to the domestic culture, they continue to bitch about how the native population is demonizing immigrants.

---

Quote:

One would think instead of shitting on the hand that feeds them, they would be grateful for living in a first world nation, instead they remain resentful and unappreciative.

---

They seemed to be doing fine. They werent shitting on the hand that feeds them
NO CRITICISM ALLOWED. YOU SHUT UP YOU FOREIGNERS!! Who says they aren't grateful of living in the West? Some in that video were born and bred in the UK, they are British but alienated all the same.

I'm resentful and unappreciative of my government, should I self-deport?

Tipote said:

qman said:

Again, why does a person choose to move to a country that they hate so much?  They don't like it's history, culture, or current polices, yet they still live there with their families.

---

who said they hated the UK???

LOL so, if you dont like something you should leave? Dissent is not allowed? There is nothing about the US history, culture of current policies that you dont like??

Quote:

Once they have the nice Western lifestyle without assimilating to the domestic culture, they continue to bitch about how the native population is demonizing immigrants.

---

making points about how their community is demonised isnt bitching exactly. Its making a factual point.

integration is the focus in Europe, not assimilation. The vast majority of immigrants do integrate. Yes, there are some who do not integrate. Demonising their entire communities won't help that.

Quote:

One would think instead of shitting on the hand that feeds them, they would be grateful for living in a first world nation, instead they remain resentful and unappreciative.

---

They seemed to be doing fine. They werent shitting on the hand that feeds them
NO CRITICISM ALLOWED. YOU SHUT UP YOU FOREIGNERS!! Who says they aren't grateful of living in the West? Some in that video were born and bred in the UK, they are British but alienated all the same.

I'm resentful and unappreciative of my government, should I self-deport?

---

qman said:

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with one's government and it's current polices, but if I choose to live in China, why would I start bringing up things that China did hundreds of years ago to discredit the nation of today?  Can't you see that a person that does that has an agenda?  They are pissing on the hand that feeds them.

---

Malkuthian said:

qman said:

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with one's government and it's current polices, but if I choose to live in China, why would I start bringing up things that China did hundreds of years ago to discredit the nation of today?  Can't you see that a person that does that has an agenda?  They are pissing on the hand that feeds them.

---

Or maybe they bring up those issues to defend themselves against the hate directed towards them, saying they are a retarded barbaric people from a retarded barbaric country. When receiving this hate, they explain that one of the reasons behind their current state of development is their history, in which the western world has played a big part. We can not simply blame them for their current needs, because we have played a part in creating this situation. When we blame them, they respond with this argument.

They don't bring up the history based on hate.
They bring up history as a defense against hate.

This is what I would deduce based on the given information.

---

qman said:

"defend themselves against the hatred"

It's a simple question in regards to being fluent in English, couldn't one say that they are trying to improve their language skills?

This question had NOTHING to do with geopolitics, it had to do with learning English!!  Is it hateful to encourage the people that currently reside in a nation to learn the native language?  No it's not.

There's a reason why they were hyper defensive, it's because they're full of anger and hatred at the UK history and culture. My proposal to these women, go back to Pakistan and live a happy life, the UK and Western culture isn't meant for people with your mentality.

---

qman said:

it had to do with learning English!!  Is it hateful to encourage the people that currently reside in a nation to learn the native language?  No it's not.
.

---

Malkuthian said:

qman said:

"defend themselves against the hatred"

It's a simple question in regards to being fluent in English, couldn't one say that they are trying to improve their language skills?

This question had NOTHING to do with geopolitics, it had to do with learning English!!  Is it hateful to encourage the people that currently reside in a nation to learn the native language?  No it's not.

There's a reason why they were hyper defensive, it's because they're full of anger and hatred at the UK history and culture. My proposal to these women, go back to Pakistan and live a happy life, the UK and Western culture isn't meant for people with your mentality.

---

Here's an idea: perhaps they answered in the context of the current situation in it's whole; maybe they said what they needed to be said based on how they are treated / spoken about, when given the opportunity to speak.

If the entire concept of my existence were being questioned and someone asked me about my language skills, I would probably do the same...

What you consider to be to topic they answered to, might not be all that relevant, compared to what perspective they had when answering.

The main point is that it's ridiculous for you to judge their answer based on the idea that they answered like you think they should have.

---

Malkuthian said:

qman said:

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with one's government and it's current polices, but if I choose to live in China, why would I start bringing up things that China did hundreds of years ago to discredit the nation of today?  Can't you see that a person that does that has an agenda?  They are pissing on the hand that feeds them.

---

Or maybe they bring up those issues to defend themselves against the hate directed towards them, saying they are a retarded barbaric people from a retarded barbaric country. When receiving this hate, they explain that one of the reasons behind their current state of development is their history, in which the western world has played a big part. We can not simply blame them for their current needs, because we have played a part in creating this situation. When we blame them, they respond with this argument.

They don't bring up the history based on hate.
They bring up history as a defense against hate.

This is what I would deduce based on the given information.

---

Bigbadwooof said:

You know, there is another interesting point to be made here. The West gave the middle east economic opportunities it would have never had without us. Thanks to us, the middle east has enough money for Saudi Arabia to fund public free college! They could be one of the best educated countries in the world, but everyone wastes their education on religion. Like 80% of them go to college for religious studies!

In Kuwait they have so much money that when you get married the government gives you $20,000 to start your life.

Religion is the biggest reason these countries are so far behind. It's the reason for their terrorist tribalism. It's the reason American leaders can find justification for invading their lands.

---

WOAH! The West giving economic opportunities to the middle east?? What do you mean?

The US buys oil just like many other countries all over the world, the US buys less and less from the Gulf states. The Saudis sell a product, and other countries buy that product. That means it has a lot of money! This relationship is not the same between the US and all middle eastern states.
Saudi Arabia also buys billions of dollars worth of military hardware from the US and UK. Trade is trade, they just happen to have a resource people want and until recently sold for high prices.
Many of the arab countries that were oil rich gave many benefits to their people. In Libya, people had many benefits to travel anywhere in the world and study for free, the same is true for Saudis.

In the Gulf states, its about Wahabi islam coupled with huge wealth and very rapid exposure to modernity.

Terrorist tribalism? Justification for invading their lands?? WHat? Great powers will always find a "justification" to invade other countries. Religion has been used as a tool for this aim - sectarianism has been purposely fuelled throughout the Middle East. This is just basic divide and conquer. In some cases, religion has helped insulate communities from extremism. Many communities have had Christian, Jewish and various Islamic sects all living together harmoniously..until interference and separation. It is sectarianism as a tool used by outside powers and by leaders in the region to separate people. Even Syrian communities are showing quite a lot of resilience in the face of sectarianism considering how badly stroked the flames of sectarianism have been. Christian militias and Muslim militias are working together even now.

Islam has had militancy within it fueled by legitimate reasons - invasion. Islam is a huge mobilising force in the face of foreign invasion and occupation. After decades of this, combined with wahabi ideology fuelled with oil money, trends in Islam are becoming increasingly extremist. While Religion will always play a part, I think politics is more of a significant factor in all this. Can you provide a source about 80% studying religion? Is that in Saudi Arabia?

I just watched the last republican debate oh my god... its basically a bunch of people saying how far up Israels bumhole they can stick their tongue, how many troops they will send to Syria and how Islam hates America. That polarises things even more. Reminds me of a post I saw the other day..