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InvisibleZippoZM
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A basic acid base extraction. HELP
    #2292151 - 02/01/04 06:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well i have been thinking about this extraction for a while and had some questions about it.

now as far as i understand this is how it works.
lets use salvia as an example.

now you take your dry leaves, and crush them up good. now you pour your grain alcahol over the leaves let it sit, filter and save the solution.

so now you have 190 proof salvia extract inside of everclear.
now from this you could evaporate till you have a sticky goo of sorts containing salvanorin and a bunch of other shit.

now barring the evaporation

couldn't you force the salvinorin to form a precipatate by adjusting the ph of the alcahol solution (which i think is acidic to a basic solution), making the salvinorin non soluable?

then you could filter off the crystal, and discard the liquid.

now that is what i think would work. please correct me if im wrong in any way.

also what sort of easy to find chemicals can be used in such a procedure safely


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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Offlinellamaboy
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Re: A basic acid base extraction. HELP [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2293058 - 02/02/04 03:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

alcohol isn't acidic. In an a/b extraction, with the acid it turns the alkaloid into a salt, which makes it polar and thus soluble. now, when you add the base to the solution it creates a freebase which is not soluble in a polar solution which causes it to precipitate. with the alcohol extraction i'm not sure if the salvinorum is in a salt form. if it's not in a salt form, then adding a base will not cause it to precipitate. if you wanted to clean off the "goo" you could add a non polar solvent to the mix(which should have been done before hand) to clean out all the tannins and clorophyl that were extracted along with the salvinorin in the alcohol. i'm not sure if salvinorin itself would be soluble in a nonpolar solution though. if it is, then this method wouldn't work. but i'm pretty sure that adding a base to your solution wouldn't cause the salvinorin to precipitate.

i have never worked with salvia, thus i am not aware of it's solubility characteristics.


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: A basic acid base extraction. HELP [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2293146 - 02/02/04 04:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i was just using salvia as an example to better
understand the process better. basically i am trying to understand the principal, not just how to do it, so that i can gain some practical chemical knowledge

also i would like to know what GC/MS is, i come across the abreviation often while reading the microgram journals. is it another extraction process? if so how does it work?


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: A basic acid base extraction. HELP [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2293555 - 02/02/04 10:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

GC/MS gas chromtagraph (sp?)/mass spectrum is not an extraction it's a way to test purity ect. of various chemicals, extracts, whatever, and gives you a read out of peaks that you compare and will let you know how many diffrent chemicals are in whatever your testing and relative purity, very expensive equipment but all colleges have them.

the principal of an a/b extraction is that salts are soluable in acidic polar solutions and freebases are soluable in non-polar solutions, you extract a number of things from plant matter on first polar soak, then you defat with a non-polar to get rid of some garbage, so then all the salts are still in the polar, you make the solution basic causing the salts to become insoluable in the polar and add a non-polar to extract out the base, this leaves behind somemore garbage you don't want, finally you can either just evaporate the solvent if you want a freebase or alternatively if you want a salt you can either tiltlate with con. H2SO4, extract back into an acidic polar solution and let evaporete, or bubble with dry HCl gas.


--------------------
There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: A basic acid base extraction. HELP [Re: John]
    #2294311 - 02/02/04 03:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

okay, i understand most of that, but let me break it down so that i can be sure of what i think i know.

Lest assume that the plant material being used is salvia, and were extracting salvanorin

1)
Quote:

you extract a number of things from plant matter on first polar soak




1) soak material in a polar solution and filter off excess liquid. leaving you a solution with a bunch of crap in it and some goo on the filter paper.

2)
Quote:

then you defat with a non-polar to get rid of some garbage, so then all the salts are still in the polar




2) now take your goo, and mix with a non polar solution. this will disolve your salvanorin into solution and when filtered you will catch a bunch of (unwanted) goo on your filter paper. (is this goo the "fats"?)

3)
Quote:

you make the solution basic causing the salts to become insoluable in the polar and




3) here i sort of lost you.
what i think you are saying is that you add a base the solution , making the salvanorin insoluable in the solution that was created in step 2.

couldnt you stop here, and filter off the pure salvanorin?

4)
Quote:

add a non-polar to extract out the base



what does this step do? it seems un-necissary, but i think that i am missing somthing.


hanks for your help J-tryptamine and everyone else

also what are some good common chemicals that can be used

i need somthing to basify,

a polar solvent, --- i could use water, but would prefer somthing that evaporates quicker

a non polar solvent.--

i have acess to consumer grade acetone and grain alcahol.


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: A basic acid base extraction. HELP [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2294406 - 02/02/04 04:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i need somthing to basify, NaOH (lye) red devil at hardware stores for unclogging drains or at hobby shops for soap making, altertantivly you could use non-sudsing non-scented ammonia

a polar solvent, --- i could use water, but would prefer somthing that evaporates quicker
too bad use water

a non polar solvent.-- naptha, tolouene, xylene, coleman camper fuel (without rust inhibitor)

1) soak material in a polar solution and filter off excess liquid. leaving you a solution with a bunch of crap in it and some goo on the filter paper.


you want to keep the water, you can throw out the plant materal and stuff in the filter, something i forgot to mention is for most extractions you're gonna want the water to be around pH 4 or so use muratic acid for this (hardware store in the pool section)

2) now take your goo, and mix with a non polar solution. this will disolve your salvanorin into solution and when filtered you will catch a bunch of (unwanted) goo on your filter paper. (is this goo the "fats"?)


the plant materal has been thrown out at this point, you add a non-polar to the acidic water and lighty agitate, let settle and siphon off the solvent and dispose of it, keep the water. this takes some of the garbage out, sometimes it's not even needed.

3) here i sort of lost you.
what i think you are saying is that you add a base the solution , making the salvanorin insoluable in the solution that was created in step 2.


you will have an acidic solution of water (not solvent) at this point, you then add a solution of NaOH to the water and raise to around pH 13 should be alright, this will cause the salts (water soluable) to convent to freebase (non-polar soluable) you then add the solvent (non-polar) and agitate lightly, the freebase will go into the solvent at this time. you then siphon off the solvent and keep it this time, you then have two choices, you can evaporate the solvent and have the freebase of whatever your extracting, the thing with that is somethings you do not want the freebase of, like mescaline for example is caustic to skin in freebase form you need to proceed like i explained above to form the salt. things like DMT you want in freebase form.


--------------------
There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.


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Offlinellamaboy
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Re: A basic acid base extraction. HELP [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2294729 - 02/02/04 06:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i think there are some things that you're missing. you don't filter between steps...almost all of these steps are carried out in an aqueas phase. there is no need to use a polar solvent that has a low evap point as you would do in a polar/non polar extraction.when you make the solution acidic this is to make the material soluble in a polar solvent. when you defat, you add a non polar solvent to this polar solution. the fats that were extracted into the acidic solution will then go into this nonpolar solvent. this non polar layer is then discarded(there is no filtering or evaporation yet). you then make the solution basic pH 12-13. if you don't have any litmus paper, or a pH meter, you can tell that it has reached the correct pH becuase the solution will be an oily colour. when you add the base, you will immediatly start to see a percipitate form where the base was added. when you swirl the solution, the percipiate will then disolve again. you will reach a point where the solution is saturated with the percipitate, sorta looking like an ashy mess. go past this point with a little bit more of base, and it will turn an oily brown colour. during this step, heat and gas are going to be produced, so make sure that the container that you are using is not sealed, as it can explode. there is still no filtering at this point or evaporation. the percipitate is now soluble in a non polar solvent. you add you non polar and mix. i personally wouldn't shake the mix to hard. i few inversions and let rest. if you mix to hard, you will create an incredibly nasty emuslion(possibly). use a sep funnel and remove the non polar layer, and save. repeat this step a few times. you now evap the non polar solvent.


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OfflineTeon
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Re: A basic acid base extraction. HELP [Re: llamaboy]
    #2297093 - 02/03/04 01:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Someone PM'd me and asked to add my two cents tot his thread, but to be honest, I don't see anything here that really needs to be added.

jtryptamine, as well as others, have layed it out pretty well here.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, have ever been, or will at any future time will be participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any legal statue; be it local, state, or federal law. All posts are works of fiction, and are intended for entertainment purposes only.

Don't just assume anything I or anyone else says is true. Test it for yourself. See if it's true.
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Offlinefelixhigh
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Re: A basic acid base extraction. HELP [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2297314 - 02/03/04 02:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i have not read it all but i'm going to add a probably unecessary reminder (moron proof).
salvinorin is VERY potent. don't throw out the dish if you don't see 'a crystal' there.
scrape it somewhere with little air movement. i wanted to see you pinpoint dose this one...
i'd bet before exhaling one should be in another world already!


FH


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