viktor said:

Malkuthian said:

You should be removed from the forum.
Why is moderators accepting this lousy behavior?

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English speaking culture places a high value on freedom of speech. We don't generally try to silence a person's right to talk just because we disagree with them.

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bennylava said:

airclay said:

bennylava said:

It all boils down to this:

Capitalism is not about destruction. There may be things that get destroyed along the side, but that's not what capitalism is. Capitalism is the great altruistic experiment in human history. That's where the right really goes wrong, when they talk about schumpeter's creative destruction. Capitalism has done more for tolerance and diversity than any government could ever dream of. The reason branch ricky signed jackie robinson, was because he thought he could make money off of him. Who even gives a shit about why, the result was obvious. And the cause was capitalism.

In a certain moral calculus, bill gates has done much more for humanity than mother teresa. Not to say she wasn't a great human being, she was. But bill gates was responsible for the hiring of millions of people, the wealth of millions of people, and changing the lives of millions of people.

But to take a look at the left for a moment..

The left would be perfectly happy for EVERYONE to be able to have a 1998 Nokia cell phone. The right would like to see everyone at some point, be able to have access to an iphone 12. (or insert preferred futuristic phone here). We're not going to get to the iphone 12, if we keep removing the money from the people who actually put up the money to complete the iphone 12. As well as all of their competition which helps make it happen. Capitalism is inherently altruistic, because its about the notion that if I don't give you something that you want, I will starve. Socialism is about the idea that if you don't give me something that I want, I will starve you. Its inherently selfish. So this idea that socialism is this great moral good, is just a lie.

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is there some highschool right wing forum that has it in for the shroom lately or is this thread coming to fuckin fruition?

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Hey that's a good counter argument!

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Tipote said:

The burden of proof is on you. You make the statement and you cannot back it up. I have already tried searching myself and can't find anything.

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Quote:

some of you guys on here really struggle with the idea that exploring and understanding the reasons behind something DOESNT mean you justify it. I did not once justify gender imbalances, what an absurd statement.

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Quote:

First of all, I've already provided you twice with statistics from earlier in the crisis that contradict your "60% are economic migrants" quote
Secondly,

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Quote:

“More than half of the people now coming to Europe come from countries where you can assume they have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status… more than half, 60 percent,” said Frans Timmerman, vice-president of the European Commission, citing what he said were new, unpublished figures from the EU border agency Frontex.

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Quote:

He also said this..

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There is no proof that bringing back border controls will help to ease the situation in terms of reducing the number of refugees,” Timmerman told NOS. He said it would be a “huge risk” which may result in “enormous economic consequences” and yet will not produce any positive outcome.

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No, i have never once pretended it is 100% refugees. it is a refugee crisis and a migrant crisis, it is a crisis.

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Quote:

I will say again..
allowing people to come is not the root cause of why people are coming.

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60% of these people are not even refugees and you believe that allowing them to just walk in, is not the route cause of this?
Of course it fucking is. Even the refugees would not be coming in such numbers if the doors were not left wide open.
They would be staying in the immediate vicinity of there own demographics, because they would have no other choice.

Quote:

Can you show me that this is the case? I can understand where you are coming from but I don't think what you are saying is represenative of what is happening generally. I disagree with all refugees or muslims or whatever being housed all together, ghettoisation does not help integration.

Also the existence of a ghetto in a town is not ethnic cleansing. People move out because they choose to, not because they are forced to.

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Quote:

I am looking at the situation for what it is, but I'm actually trying to think of solutions where as you and others are just headless chickens running around panicking and that helps nothing.

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In some places has the management been superb? absolutely.

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UNDERSTANDING REASONS IS NOT JUSTIFYING

Identity is important and so its understandable that one might want to mix with people of a similar background.

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Integration is a long process. At first when moving to a new country, you might stay in areas familiar to you culturally. Studies show that with greater economic mobility, as people make money they move out of these areas. After time, these communities become more and more intertwined and integrated into society.

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"filling the EU with misogynists" - do you ever notice how loaded all the language you use is?

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Quote:

Apologies, I read it wrongly. My point returns in asking you what you think that would do for the EU to have a cut off Greece being filled by refugees. Concentrating the problem is not helpful, cutting it off and assuming you are insulated from it is delusional.

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Quote:

because its the largest REFUGEE crisis since the second world war?
"oh the poor refugees" - I hope you are never a refugee because you would swallow your words so fucking fast. My father ran refugee camps all over the world, I've worked with refugees and continue to do so. Part of my family were refugees.

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Quote:

why can't i talk about refugees? I have not pretended once that there are rapists, criminals, economic migrants etc coming in too. Refugees will be the ones accepted to stay, the rest can be deported. Refugees who are accepted and break the law can also be deported.
Again.... two words you fail to understand "refugee" and "crisis"

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You think people just went to Germany for hand outs? They were welcomed for the most part, at least at first, and there is best chance of getting a job, why not go there?

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But nonetheless, in your view I have a real degree, a shiny one at that.

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Starter said:

Malkuthian said:

Quote:

But nonetheless, in your view I have a real degree, a shiny one at that.

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You do?
That's good - now feel free to answer the math questions bigbadwoofie and tipote fled from. That is if you can pull yourself away from wanting censorship and bans because you're butthurt.

I'll post the answers on my Wednesday evening (AEST). If you do have that shiny new degree you will know full well math melts the libby argument of letting 'em in. It also proves leftist ideology is incapable of sound immigration policy and governance.

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The Ecstatic said:

Starter said:

Malkuthian said:

Quote:

But nonetheless, in your view I have a real degree, a shiny one at that.

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You do?
That's good - now feel free to answer the math questions bigbadwoofie and tipote fled from. That is if you can pull yourself away from wanting censorship and bans because you're butthurt.

I'll post the answers on my Wednesday evening (AEST). If you do have that shiny new degree you will know full well math melts the libby argument of letting 'em in. It also proves leftist ideology is incapable of sound immigration policy and governance.

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lol @ trying to use math to justify an opinion on social issues.

There's a lot more factors at play than fiscal policy.

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qman said:

"I would prefer that there were no refugees to come to Europe"

Well, thank you for your honestly.

I will return the honestly as well, I wouldn't have a problem with legal immigration into the EU or US IF we had a shortage of labor.  The fact of the matter is, we have the complete opposite in all developed economies, we have an massive excess pool of labor relative to demand.

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Quote:

In the short term, the macroeconomic effect from the refugee surge is likely to be a modest increase in GDP growth, reflecting the fiscal expansion associated with support to the asylum seekers, as well as the expansion in labor supply as the newcomers begin to enter the labor force. The effect is concentrated in the main destination countries (Austria, Germany, and Sweden). The impact of the refugees on medium and long-term growth depends on how they will be integrated in the labor market. International experience with economic immigrants suggests that migrants have lower employment rates and wages than natives, though these differences diminish over time. Slow integration reflects factors such as lack of language skills and transferable job qualifications, as well as barriers to job search. In the case of refugees, legal constraints on work during the asylum application period also play a role. Factors that make it difficult for all low-skilled workers to take up jobs, such as high entry wages and other labor market rigidities, may also be important, as may be welfare traps” created by the interaction of social benefits and the tax system.
...
Reducing restrictions on their geographical mobility (including those linked to housing) would allow them to move to where labor demand is high. While this can raise legitimate concerns among native workers that they will face lower wages and higher unemployment, past experience indicates that any such adverse effects are limited and temporary. 

Rapid labor market integration is also key to reducing the net fiscal cost associated with the current inflow of asylum seekers. Indeed, the sooner the refugees gain employment, the more they will help the public finances by paying income tax and social security contributions. Their successful labor market integration will also counter some of the adverse fiscal effects of population aging.

from here: https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/sdn/2016/sdn1602.pdf

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Quote:

Rationalizing the current set of economic circumstances with "the rich made it this way" so that justifies bringing even more poor people really doesn't cut it.

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Quote:

"Cultural diversity" can work under optimal economic conditions, but that rarely happens in human societies, usually there are tremendous struggles for the working class.

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viktor said:

Tipote said:

viktor said:

Tipote said:

ive said very clearly that i'm not saying let everyone in.

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Well, they're going to keep coming, so at some point you have to close the borders.
The question is when. Do we keep taking in 'refugees' until France, for example, is 50% Muslim? They are already 12% Muslim.
Are the French permitted to remain more than 80% French, in your opinion?
When are Europeans allowed to decide enough is enough and close their borders, according to you?

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are you saying you can't be muslim and french?
I've already spoken about restricting access on the borders, with a route to resettlement through the right channels.

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So you can't answer my question about how large the proportion of Muslims in Europe is going to be allowed to get.

When the European far right strike back against the Muslims, they will also destroy your kind while they're at it. This is why you ought to think a little bit harder about this than what you have done thus far.

If you keep insisting that millions more poorly educated Muslim men flow into Europe you might as well just admit that you want the far right to come back to power.

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viktor said:

Hell, Tipote could just look at the example of white people. When white people came to New Zealand at first, they integrated very well. Early whalers often married into Maori tribes, for example.

When the numbers of white people got large enough they didn't have to integrate anymore and they just took over.

Exactly the same thing is happening in Europe. Already the numbers of Muslims in certain areas is so high that it's essentially now conquered territory, because the natives do not have permission to go there.

I don't know why he thinks Europe getting invaded in 2016 is any different to NZ getting invaded in 1840. It's the same story.

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viktor said:

I'm so happy that NZ is letting in Chinese, Indians, Samoans instead of Muslims. Hopefully we continue this far-sighted policy and avoid the horrors that Europe is now facing.

People like Tipote appear to have very little grasp of history. They appear to be more concerned with what 'should' happen than what actually has and is happening.

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viktor said:

Starter said:

This is perhaps the greatest paradox of the leftists, which is why they're now being called 'regressive leftists'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left

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It's good that there's a name for that sort of person. It makes them easier to understand.

The thing is, I'm a leftist. I consider most of the rest of the left to have betrayed what the left is about (making sure the native working class gets a fair share of the fruits of its labour).

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bennylava said:

It all boils down to this:
Capitalism is not about destruction. There may be things that get destroyed along the side, but that's not what capitalism is. Capitalism is the great altruistic experiment in human history. That's where the right really goes wrong, when they talk about schumpeter's creative destruction. Capitalism has done more for tolerance and diversity than any government could ever dream of. The reason branch ricky signed jackie robinson, was because he thought he could make money off of him. Who even gives a shit about why, the result was obvious. And the cause was capitalism.
In a certain moral calculus, bill gates has done much more for humanity than mother teresa. Not to say she wasn't a great human being, she was. But bill gates was responsible for the hiring of millions of people, the wealth of millions of people, and changing the lives of millions of people.
But to take a look at the left for a moment..
The left would be perfectly happy for EVERYONE to be able to have a 1998 Nokia cell phone. The right would like to see everyone at some point, be able to have access to an iphone 12. (or insert preferred futuristic phone here). We're not going to get to the iphone 12, if we keep removing the money from the people who actually put up the money to complete the iphone 12. As well as all of their competition which helps make it happen. Capitalism is inherently altruistic, because its about the notion that if I don't give you something that you want, I will starve. Socialism is about the idea that if you don't give me something that I want, I will starve you. Its inherently selfish. So this idea that socialism is this great moral good, is just a lie.

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Bubbles85 said:

viktor said:

You are right, but the "let 'em all in" crowd don't do maths.

I knew people like Tipote when I was in Europe 15 years ago. I pointed out that basic mathematics tells us that if we keep taking in a set number of Muslims a year, and if the Muslims already here breed at a higher rate than the natives, eventually there will be a Muslim majority here.

It's maths so simple a seven year-old could understand it. But none of Tipote's kind seemed to be able to recognise this.

15 years ago the rhetoric was that the immigrants would soon stop coming of their own accord and the Muslim population in Europe would level off at about 2-3%.

Obviously, the exact opposite happened.

So when the same sort of person now tells me that the millions of Muslims flooding into Europe will all integrate and become valued members of society I don't trust them. They were wrong when they said the Muslim population would level out, and they are wrong when they say the Muslim population will integrate.

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This seems to be the simple concept that Tipote and the rest on the left supporting this, do not seem to be able to grasp. Or rather i should say, purposely skate around and ignore.

Its all well and good saying that the refugees make up 0.1% of the over all population of Europe. But this is completely missing the fact, that Europe has all ready been subject to mass Third World immigration for the for the last five decades.

The small percentage of refugees and even higher number of illegal economic migrants coming in to Europe within this crisis, are just adding to an all ready, very large over all percentage, of Third World immigrants that are all ready here.

Europe IS going to become a predominately Third World inhabited continent within this century, due to Liberal, Left Wing immigration policies, if this is allowed to continue.
That is the point here. That is why there is such a backlash to this particular crisis, because its made that fact a reality, that people can see with there own eyes.

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Bubbles85 said:

Tipote said:

The burden of proof is on you. You make the statement and you cannot back it up. I have already tried searching myself and can't find anything.

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I don't need to back up what I know I've all ready said just to appease you

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Quote:

Quote:

“More than half of the people now coming to Europe come from countries where you can assume they have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status… more than half, 60 percent,” said Frans Timmerman, vice-president of the European Commission, citing what he said were new, unpublished figures from the EU border agency Frontex.

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If you think that fixating on the word "now" suddenly means that economic migrants have only just started to arrive, then that is rediculous.
You constantly fixate on the smallest points to try to prove you're "opinions" to be true, because in reality, the truth goes against you're Liberal ideals. Liberal ideals that are bringing Europe to its knees. Europe has been bringing boats in to its shores, filled with economic migrants from Africa for example, right from the start of this mess.

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Quote:

Quote:

No, i have never once pretended it is 100% refugees. it is a refugee crisis and a migrant crisis, it is a crisis.

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Yes, that is being exacerbated by Liberal immigration policy.

Quote:

I will say again..
allowing people to come is not the root cause of why people are coming.

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60% of these people are not even refugees and you believe that allowing them to just walk in, is not the route cause of this?
Of course it fucking is. Even the refugees would not be coming in such numbers if the doors were not left wide open.
They would be staying in the immediate vicinity of there own demographics, because they would have no other choice.

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Quote:

Quote:

In some places has the management been superb? absolutely.

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Quote:

Quote:

Integration is a long process. At first when moving to a new country, you might stay in areas familiar to you culturally. Studies show that with greater economic mobility, as people make money they move out of these areas. After time, these communities become more and more intertwined and integrated into society.

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When immigration is properly managed i would probably agree. However, the mass migrations that you so strongly advocate, causes the exact opposite to happen. Which is what we now see happening right across Europe. People are not integrating, they are being torn apart.

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Quote:

Hundreds of masked men marched through Stockholm's main train station on Friday evening, reportedly beating up refugees and anyone who didn't appear to be ethnically Swedish.

Wearing all-black balaclavas and armbands, the men "gathered with the purpose of attacking refugee children," Stockholm police spokesperson Towe Hagg said.
...
After the attack, the Swedish Resistance Movement, a neo-Nazi group, released a statement claiming the attack had "cleaned up criminal immigrants from North Africa that are housed in the area around the Central Station".
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At least 10,000 unaccompanied child refugees have disappeared after arriving in Europe, according to the EU’s criminal intelligence agency. Many are feared to have fallen into the hands of organised trafficking syndicates.

In the first attempt by law enforcement agencies to quantify one of the most worrying aspects of the migrant crisis, Europol’s chief of staff told the Observer that thousands of vulnerable minors had vanished after registering with state authorities.

Brian Donald said 5,000 children had disappeared in Italy alone, while another 1,000 were unaccounted for in Sweden. He warned that a sophisticated pan-European “criminal infrastructure” was now targeting refugees. “It’s not unreasonable to say that we’re looking at 10,000-plus children. Not all of them will be criminally exploited; some might have been passed on to family members. We just don’t know where they are, what they’re doing or whom they are with.”

The plight of unaccompanied child refugees has emerged as one of the most pressing issues in the migrant crisis. Last week it was announced that Britain would accept more unaccompanied minors from Syria and other conflict zones. According to Save the Children, an estimated 26,000 unaccompanied children entered Europe last year. Europol, which has a 900-strong force of intelligence analysts and police liaison officers, believes 27% of the million arrivals in Europe last year were minors.

“Whether they are registered or not, we’re talking about 270,000 children. Not all of those are unaccompanied, but we also have evidence that a large proportion might be,” said Donald, indicating that the 10,000 figure is likely to be a conservative estimate of the actual number of unaccompanied minors who have disappeared since entering Europe.
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The police agency has also documented a disturbing crossover between organised gangs helping to smuggle refugees into the EU and human-trafficking gangs exploiting them for sex work and slavery.
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Europe’s chaotic approach to the migration crisis led last week to calls for Greece to be removed from the open-borders Schengen zone, a development that a senior UN official has described as a “new nadir” in the EU’s approach.

Writing in the Observer, the UN special representative on migration, Peter Sutherland, said such a move would “effectively transform it [Greece] into an open-air holding pen for countless thousands of asylum seekers. The idea is inhumane and a gross violation of basic European principles”.

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A right-wing German politician has said that police should be ready to shoot migrants to prevent them entering the country illegally.

Frauke Petry, said desperate measures were needed to tackle the problem.

"I don't want this either. But the use of armed force is there as a last resort," said Ms Petry, head of the Eurosceptic Alternativ für Deutschland party.

Her remarks, which were published in the Mannheimer Morgen newspaper, drew widespread condemnation, the BBC reported.

The country’s police union said its members would never shoot at migrants.

Thomas Oppermann, a member of the centre-left social democrats, added that the last politician to order troops to fire at migrants was Erich Honecker, the leader of East Germany.
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Forty percent of Germans want Chancellor Angela Merkel to quit over her refugee policy after nearly 1.1 million refugees have arrived in the country in the past year, according to a new poll.

The poll for Focus magazine, conducted by the independent opinion research institute Insa, showed on Friday a sign of rising dissatisfaction with Merkel's welcoming stance towards asylum seekers fleeing conflict and economic hardship in the Middle East and Africa.

Yet, 45.2 percent out of the 2,047 German citizens questioned said they did not believe Merkel's refugee policy was a reason for her to resign.

It was the first time the pollster had asked voters whether Merkel should quit. The survey was conducted between January 22 and January 25.

Another poll also released on Friday, by the Elector Research Group, showed support for Merkel's conservative bloc was steady at 37 percent - as recently as September they were on 42 percent.

Support for the Social Democratic Party (SPD) was also unchanged at 24 percent.

The three ruling parties - Merkel's Christian Democrats, their Bavarian allies, and the SPD - are eager to show voters that the government is in control of the refugee crisis before three states vote in March and a general election next year.

Merkel has pledged to "tangibly" reduce the number of refugees and asylum seekers arriving this year with a range of measures in Germany, on the European level and with the help of international partners such as Turkey.

She struck an accord late on Thursday with her fractious left-right coalition to tighten asylum policies, notably by making it easier to send back arrivals from North Africa and by delaying family reunifications.

Earlier this week, the cabinet approved measures that are meant to make it easier to deport foreign criminals - a separate package that ministers drew up amid outrage over the New Year's Eve assaults in Cologne, which have been blamed largely on foreigners.

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Britain First has been denounced by every major Christian denomination in the UK, The Huffington Post UK can reveal today, a week after the far-right group held a so-called 'Christian patrol' targeting Muslims in Luton.

Representatives of 14 churches and Christian groups have variously described the political party as "extremist", "self-serving" and "blasphemous" and condemned its actions as "hi-jacking the name of Jesus Christ to justify hatred and spread fear".

Britain First claim to be defenders of "traditional British Christian values" and Leader Paul Golding has regularly invoked religious rhetoric to justify their actions.

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A confrontation over immigration between the far right and anti-fascists in Dover has turned violent.

Hundreds of police struggled to keep the two groups apart during Saturday's protest and they clashed in the port town.

Three people were arrested and weapons including a knife, knuckle duster and hammers were seized.

Groups including the EDL and the National Front organised the march to protest against immigration, with some carrying flags saying "refugees not welcome".

Unite Against Fascism (UAF) and the Kent Anti-Racism Network (KARN) organised a counter-demonstration.

Police in riot gear and dog handlers stemmed the violence, but at one point officers were pushed back by left-wing activists in black hooded tops and with covered faces who broke through their lines.

Kent Police described the protest as a "fast-moving and ongoing incident". One person suffered a broken arm during the protests and five others were injured, though not seriously. Another man reportedly had a brick thrown at his face.

A female reporter for LBC who was covering the protest said that one far-right demonstrator threatened her, telling her she should be raped and that she should not be able to have children.

The far right march began at around 1pm at Dover's market square but quickly turned into a confrontation with bricks being thrown between the two sides.

The march ended with speeches being given, where people decried the arrival of "third world scum" in Britain. One speaker even told black Labour MP Diane Abbott, who had addressed the anti-fascist demonstrators, to "pack her backs and go back where she came from".

Before the demonstration the South East Alliance, which describes itself as an "angry, white and proud" street movement, advertised the protest on its Facebook page, saying: "Remember we are there for a purpose. To highlight certain issues we face. We are not there to have a kick-off with the red scum but we do know they will attack us and we shall defend ourselves without hesitation."

And following the march the National Front posted on its own Facebook site, saying: "A big well done and thank you to all white nationalists who attended Dover today to save our country from invasion. Respect to all in attendance."

The anti-fascist demonstrators played down the size of the other camp, insisting the far right members were outnumbered by the police.

There were estimated to be around 150 anti-immigration protestors. Campaign group Hope Not Hate said there were so few, the police directed them off the road and on to the pavement.

Police activated "stop and search" powers in Dover on Saturday and seized a variety of weapons in the town and at the motorway services.

A spokesman said: "More than 20 weapons were seized in total at Dover and the M20 services, including a lock-knife, knuckle duster, poles adapted to cause harm, pieces of wood, glass, hammers and bricks.

"Kent Police would like to thank the local community for its cooperation and patience throughout the demonstrations."

Before the march there was an incident at a service station in Maidstone, in which anti-fascist protestors' buses were attacked.

The coaches had their smashed windows and Nazi symbols graffitied on them, as protestors travelled to oppose a far right march in Dover.

Britain First, the far right anti-Muslim political party, staged a separate march in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire on Saturday, which passed without incident. Despite the party's significant online following, the march attracted few supporters.

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