airclay said:

which really rounds us back out to everybody wanting to play world police but nobody wants to clean up the mess when it comes time.

If we are to believe these refugees simply should not be assimilated in our societies; what other options are available? I've heard keeping them in their respective countries. But let's really think about that. To do so you'd be talking about keeping a forced perimeter around a country to keep people from leaving war torn areas and forcing them to stay in areas of violence. Is there other ideas about this or other suggestions completely? I would keep in mind that simple monetary aid is very hard to follow and ensure it actually reaches citizens.

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qman said:

Tipote said:

qman said:

Tipote said:

refugees are not invaders.

Aus signed the 51/67 convention.

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You do realize that the UN is a complete joke that no one really respects?  Why should Germany give two shits about it?

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The UN is a joke only because there is no accountability. the UN is a joke because there are clear double standards depending on what the US wants.

The point of the UN was to prevent global war and to prevent the situations we now face. The UN consistently fails for multiple reasons but whats the problem with international law/conventions?

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If you can't enforce international law/conventions, they're not worth the paper they are written on, once again another example of theoretical land.

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The military history of the US for the last 50 yrs begs to differ. It must be nice to be able to say that while the other side of the mouth (not you particularly but most right leaning americans) supports keeping other countries in line by force to follow those worthless papers.

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Is that a double standard?  Of course, that's the benefit of having the biggest gun on the street.

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qman said:

If you can't enforce international law/conventions, they're not worth the paper they are written on, once again another example of theoretical land.

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airclay said:

Fair enough, I can see that. Where do you suggest they go? Turkey has taken a fair share so let's help them settle in isreal, jordan and saudi arabia? I could actually get with that as well, I mean we already send those countries tons of money.

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qman said:

If I have a problem in the US, I'm not going to Japan, it's either Mexico or Canada.

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Bubbles85 said:

Some? 60% is alot more than some. I would also argue the fact, that the people who do not qualify for refugee status, have been rocking in illegally right from the start.

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Quote:

In other words, citizens from countries that usually obtain protection in the EU account for fully 75% of illicit arrivals by sea this year. Crunch the numbers further and we find that at least 81% of those migrants entering Greece can expect to receive refugee status or some other form of protection in the EU. The figure for those entering Italy, who are a far more diverse bunch, is 46%. Many Nigerians, Bangladeshis and Gambians, among others, fail to obtain protection after crossing the Mediterranean (see chart 2).
....
These numbers capture only those entering (and detected) by sea—some European countries, Germany in particular, have a separate problem of asylum-seekers travelling overland from Balkan countries like Kosovo, Serbia and Albania, the vast majority of whom are denied protection—and cover only “first-instance” decisions. Still, the headline numbers suggest that the vast majority of illegal migrants reaching Europe will be eligible for protection once they arrive


from here: How many migrants to Europe are refugees?

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Quote:

It seems to me, that people keep purposely derailing the issues, around the very large majority of people who should be deported, or stopped from entering Europe, by using the word refugee as a way to categorizing every single migrant coming here within that group. Which is far from the truth.

I have not heard any member on this forum, reject calls to help GENUINE refugees.

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viktor said:

qman said:

If I have a problem in the US, I'm not going to Japan, it's either Mexico or Canada.

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But according to Tipote, once you're a refugee you have the right to free citizenship in any country that signed the refugee convention. So you might as well make it a good country.

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Tipote said:

qman said:

If you can't enforce international law/conventions, they're not worth the paper they are written on, once again another example of theoretical land.

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so would you support greater impartiality, empowerment and independence of the UN?

The UN is vastly US-funded and the money and the structure of decision making make the serious issues an impossibility to deal with. To have an effective UN, you need countries individually supporting the UN. Israel stops UN officials from visits to Israel, if Iran did that then everyone would know about it and there would be consequences.

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Tipote said:

viktor said:

qman said:

If I have a problem in the US, I'm not going to Japan, it's either Mexico or Canada.

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But according to Tipote, once you're a refugee you have the right to free citizenship in any country that signed the refugee convention. So you might as well make it a good country.

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Basically, yes i think so. In the US for example, the refugees could be citizens after about 5 years if they choose to, or they can just return back to Syria if things get better.

the problem arises therefore if a conflict goes on for a long time. Mentally you cant just be waiting and waiting to see if war will stop in your country, you just have to get on with things and build a life in a new country. They have an incentive to work, become strong and to promote peace in the country from the safety of the Syrian diaspora. If peace comes, many but not all will go back since identity and family roots are important psychologically.

after a generation or two in another country, full integration and assimilation happens. Its just particularly difficult with muslims due to the culture of fear and islamophobia in the west these days.

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"after a generation or two in another country, full integration and assimilation happens"

Only in liberal fantasyland, Muslims have been in the EU since the 1950's and it's been a complete disaster that's only getting worse.

"due to the culture of fear and islamophobia"

Yeah, blame the victim mentality.

zappaisgod said:

They are fucked by law.  Idiots.  The US is not fucked by law.  It is fucked by an unwillingness to enforce the existing law by leftist shitbags.

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Bigbadwooof said:

It's funny how, despite that confident attitude, he's wrong 99% of the time.

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That confident attitude worked really well for him for a time, until smarter people than him showed up and handed his ass to him 99% of the time. 

Tipote said:

The Australian model is not transferable to Europe and its also shit. There are numerous atrocities going on in Aussie offshore detention centres. The policy has been denounced by most of the world.

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Tipote said:

Bubbles85 said:

Some? 60% is alot more than some. I would also argue the fact, that the people who do not qualify for refugee status, have been rocking in illegally right from the start.

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I dont think the 60% figure is applicable for the whole influx. People are just taking advantage of it. Those that come are deported if not recognised as being entitled to protection under the law.

Quote:

In other words, citizens from countries that usually obtain protection in the EU account for fully 75% of illicit arrivals by sea this year. Crunch the numbers further and we find that at least 81% of those migrants entering Greece can expect to receive refugee status or some other form of protection in the EU. The figure for those entering Italy, who are a far more diverse bunch, is 46%. Many Nigerians, Bangladeshis and Gambians, among others, fail to obtain protection after crossing the Mediterranean (see chart 2).
....
These numbers capture only those entering (and detected) by sea—some European countries, Germany in particular, have a separate problem of asylum-seekers travelling overland from Balkan countries like Kosovo, Serbia and Albania, the vast majority of whom are denied protection—and cover only “first-instance” decisions. Still, the headline numbers suggest that the vast majority of illegal migrants reaching Europe will be eligible for protection once they arrive


from here: How many migrants to Europe are refugees?

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Quote:

It seems to me, that people keep purposely derailing the issues, around the very large majority of people who should be deported, or stopped from entering Europe, by using the word refugee as a way to categorizing every single migrant coming here within that group. Which is far from the truth.

I have not heard any member on this forum, reject calls to help GENUINE refugees.

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No, i think the opposite is true. These people are being termed things like "rapeugees" or "fake refugees", "infiltrators" etc etc, it actually paints it as being mostly young terrorist rapist men flooding in. It's painted like there are no genuine refugees. I dont think i can remember a situation where you have said you supported accepting some refugees.
did qman say he would accept genuine refugees? he still sees them as primitive and therefore impossible to assimilate.

What about young children? The kindertransport during the war which saved thousands of jewish children by sending them to England, was a great success. These people grew up from a young age in the UK and were fully assimilated.

I'm glad that we can agree that there are genuine refugees and they need refuge. Yes there are also people who aren't refugees and there are also refugees who are criminal. These are all legitimate problems and need to be dealt with effectively. We can probably also agree that the EU governments have managed with the entire crisis badly and they continue to do so.

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Starter said:

Tipote said:

The Australian model is not transferable to Europe and its also shit. There are numerous atrocities going on in Aussie offshore detention centres. The policy has been denounced by most of the world.

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It fucking works and keeps 'em out! Being brutal to them is the language they understand so small violins. Yup, Tony Abbott was telling the Euro'tards what to do and they didn't listen. Now they have this Islamic invasion.

In a world of exploding population not all are worthy to live and certainly not welcome in the first world where we must protect our way of live by all means necessary.

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