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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22826837 -

qman said:
Tipote said:
qman said:
We are talking about EU/US military intervention in the Middle East.



how is that left wing?



Never said it was, but "left wing" politicians were also on board.

Again, I ask where are these TRUE left wing economic polices and politicians?  It's in theoretical land.



i agree that the left is almost nonexistant in Europe compared to the right wing or centre. There are pockets emerging though in Spain, Greece, UK, Netherlands and on the rise.

yes "left wing" politicians were on board. as was discussed earlier, "left wing" policians conformed to the Western agenda of neoliberal economic policies and of the global war on terror etc, which were right wing policies.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22826842 -

The Ecstatic said:
zappa is under the impression that if we just crush everyone hard enough, other nations and peoples will cede defeat forever.

Convenient viewpoint for an extremely hawkish neocon.  Im sure Krystol,  Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and the rest of the gang agree.



:lol: yes, exactly.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22826856 -

Tipote said:
zappaisgod said:
Tipote said:
what wimpyness do you mean?



That we didn't kick their asses completely in 1980, 1990 and when Reagan ran away from Lebanon.

Is it the right thing to do to accept these people?  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum-worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee-boy-15-arrested-murder.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

http://www.allenbwest.com/2015/10/mainstream-media-wont-tell-you-why-sweden-is-now-rape-capital-of-the-west/

I could go on.  Take none of them in.  They are vipers.



I know you would prefer to wipe out the who middle east so discussion is pretty limited with you.

Those criminals should be deported. Other countries are not insulated from this war, despite you wanting to think the opposite. This should make people to wind down the military industrial complex which directly profits off this destruction.

accepting refugees is not a choice, its a duty. Its the ethical thing to do. just as stopping the war is.



"accepting refugees is not a choice"

It clearly is a choice, history proves that fact.

"its a duty"

Nope, it's still a choice. Charity starts at home.

"Its the ethical thing to do"

Potentially, but you don't shoot yourself in the foot to do the "ethical thing", it's more complicated than a broad generalization.

"just as stopping war is"

Some wars are ethical, history proves that fact.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22826874 -

qman said:
Nope, it's still a choice. Charity starts at home.



why is it not a duty? to help other people when they are in need, we need that sometimes. There were thousands of European refugees in the middle east during the war.

Quote:
"Its the ethical thing to do"
Potentially, but you don't shoot yourself in the foot to do the "ethical thing", it's more complicated than a broad generalization.




Yes i would support a better management of this crisis, a big obstacle to doing that is Turkey who are using it as leverage.
it is possible for many of the worst aspects to be eliminated.

Quote:
Some wars are ethical, history proves that fact.



well we are talking about the wars specifically in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, were they ethical?


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22826888 -

Tipote said:
qman said:
Nope, it's still a choice. Charity starts at home.



why is it not a duty? to help other people when they are in need, we need that sometimes. There were thousands of European refugees in the middle east during the war.

Quote:
"Its the ethical thing to do"
Potentially, but you don't shoot yourself in the foot to do the "ethical thing", it's more complicated than a broad generalization.




Yes i would support a better management of this crisis, a big obstacle to doing that is Turkey who are using it as leverage.
it is possible for many of the worst aspects to be eliminated.

Quote:
Some wars are ethical, history proves that fact.



well we are talking about the wars specifically in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, were they ethical?



"were they ethical?"

That's a good question and I'm not going to judge those conflicts whether they were "ethical" or not.  I don't think the US should be involved in those areas of the world in the first place.

I'm sure some people could make a decent argument that removing Saddam from power was the "ethical" thing to do, my opinion is still the US should stay out of it.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22826930 -

qman said:
Tipote said:
zappaisgod said:
Tipote said:
what wimpyness do you mean?



That we didn't kick their asses completely in 1980, 1990 and when Reagan ran away from Lebanon.

Is it the right thing to do to accept these people?  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum-worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee-boy-15-arrested-murder.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

http://www.allenbwest.com/2015/10/mainstream-media-wont-tell-you-why-sweden-is-now-rape-capital-of-the-west/

I could go on.  Take none of them in.  They are vipers.



I know you would prefer to wipe out the who middle east so discussion is pretty limited with you.

Those criminals should be deported. Other countries are not insulated from this war, despite you wanting to think the opposite. This should make people to wind down the military industrial complex which directly profits off this destruction.

accepting refugees is not a choice, its a duty. Its the ethical thing to do. just as stopping the war is.



"accepting refugees is not a choice"

It clearly is a choice, history proves that fact.

"its a duty"

Nope, it's still a choice. Charity starts at home.

"Its the ethical thing to do"

Potentially, but you don't shoot yourself in the foot to do the "ethical thing", it's more complicated than a broad generalization.

"just as stopping war is"

Some wars are ethical, history proves that fact.



I still cant believe that people are still so blind to the fact, that most of the people coming in to Europe are not even refugees. Every one is fucking brainwashed.

The EU commissioner has today stated, that two thirds of all of the people entering Europe, are not refugees and do not qualify for refugees status. Thats over 60%.

Almost two thirds of refugees entering Europe are NOT fleeing war, EU Commissioner claims

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22826970 -

Tipote said:
zappaisgod said:
Tipote said:
what wimpyness do you mean?



That we didn't kick their asses completely in 1980, 1990 and when Reagan ran away from Lebanon.

Is it the right thing to do to accept these people?  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum-worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee-boy-15-arrested-murder.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

http://www.allenbwest.com/2015/10/mainstream-media-wont-tell-you-why-sweden-is-now-rape-capital-of-the-west/

I could go on.  Take none of them in.  They are vipers.



I know you would prefer to wipe out the who middle east so discussion is pretty limited with you.

Those criminals should be deported. Other countries are not insulated from this war, despite you wanting to think the opposite. This should make people to wind down the military industrial complex which directly profits off this destruction.

accepting refugees is not a choice, its a duty. Its the ethical thing to do. just as stopping the war is.



"accepting refugees is not a choice"

It clearly is a choice, history proves that fact.

"its a duty"

Nope, it's still a choice. Charity starts at home.

"Its the ethical thing to do"

Potentially, but you don't shoot yourself in the foot to do the "ethical thing", it's more complicated than a broad generalization.

"just as stopping war is"

Some wars are ethical, history proves that fact.



I still cant believe that people are still so blind to the fact, that most of the people coming in to Europe are not even refugees. Every one is fucking brainwashed.

The EU commissioner has today stated, that two thirds of all of the people entering Europe, are not refugees and do not qualify for refugees status. Thats over 60%.

Almost two thirds of refugees entering Europe are NOT fleeing war, EU Commissioner claims



Tip has been shown a million times these invaders aren't even refugees, it makes no difference.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22826990 -

qman said:
Tipote said:
zappaisgod said:
Tipote said:
what wimpyness do you mean?



That we didn't kick their asses completely in 1980, 1990 and when Reagan ran away from Lebanon.

Is it the right thing to do to accept these people?  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum-worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee-boy-15-arrested-murder.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

http://www.allenbwest.com/2015/10/mainstream-media-wont-tell-you-why-sweden-is-now-rape-capital-of-the-west/

I could go on.  Take none of them in.  They are vipers.



I know you would prefer to wipe out the who middle east so discussion is pretty limited with you.

Those criminals should be deported. Other countries are not insulated from this war, despite you wanting to think the opposite. This should make people to wind down the military industrial complex which directly profits off this destruction.

accepting refugees is not a choice, its a duty. Its the ethical thing to do. just as stopping the war is.



"accepting refugees is not a choice"

It clearly is a choice, history proves that fact.

"its a duty"

Nope, it's still a choice. Charity starts at home.

"Its the ethical thing to do"

Potentially, but you don't shoot yourself in the foot to do the "ethical thing", it's more complicated than a broad generalization.

"just as stopping war is"

Some wars are ethical, history proves that fact.



I still cant believe that people are still so blind to the fact, that most of the people coming in to Europe are not even refugees. Every one is fucking brainwashed.

The EU commissioner has today stated, that two thirds of all of the people entering Europe, are not refugees and do not qualify for refugees status. Thats over 60%.

Almost two thirds of refugees entering Europe are NOT fleeing war, EU Commissioner claims



Tip has been shown a million times these invaders aren't even refugees, it makes no difference.



:werd:

The EU needs to take a very hard stance against this shit now. IMO. We've got no choice. Enough is enough.

There just taking the piss.

They've only just managed to work out, what the general populace have know all along. Idiots. Most of them are just free loaders, thats now evident.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22827149 -

There's never going to be an end to it.

The political elite want to destroy all nationalist sentiments to pave the way for a global government.

In a global world, solidarity on the basis of ethnicity will not be permitted.

The first step is for the white man to lose his homeland in Europe.

Then the Asians in the Far East can have racist screamed at them for 50 years until they also accede to colonisation from the Third World.

With no nationalist or ethnic sentiments left, the path to a global government will be easy.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor] * 4
    #22827180 -

That sounds like something that belongs in the conspiracy forum.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22827187 -

Bubbles85 said:
qman said:
Tip has been shown a million times these invaders aren't even refugees, it makes no difference.



:werd:

The EU needs to take a very hard stance against this shit now. IMO. We've got no choice. Enough is enough.

There just taking the piss.

They've only just managed to work out, what the general populace have know all along. Idiots. Most of them are just free loaders, thats now evident.



I never said that some people who arent refugees are taking advantage of these movements of people combined with the incompetence of EU management. That does not mean that accepting genuine refugees is a mistake, it shows the EU as a whole and individual states are terrible at managing it.

The key word in what the EU commissioner said was "now"

Quote:
More than half of the people now coming to Europe come from countries where you can assume they have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status … more than half, 60 percent.



These are opportunists taking advantage of the situation, you always will get this. This does not mean that 60% of all the arrivals were economic migrants.

Obviously these people will be deported, that is the responsibility of our governments. Germany alone has been trying to make its deportation system even more efficient so that those who are denied refugee status can be repatriated and that those people trying to come from kosovo or macedonia are sent back.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor]
    #22827191 -

viktor said:
There's never going to be an end to it.
The political elite want to destroy all nationalist sentiments to pave the way for a global government.
In a global world, solidarity on the basis of ethnicity will not be permitted.
The first step is for the white man to lose his homeland in Europe.
Then the Asians in the Far East can have racist screamed at them for 50 years until they also accede to colonisation from the Third World.
With no nationalist or ethnic sentiments left, the path to a global government will be easy.



you make it sound awfully simple.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor]
    #22827207 -

viktor said:
There's never going to be an end to it.

The political elite want to destroy all nationalist sentiments to pave the way for a global government.

In a global world, solidarity on the basis of ethnicity will not be permitted.

The first step is for the white man to lose his homeland in Europe.

Then the Asians in the Far East can have racist screamed at them for 50 years until they also accede to colonisation from the Third World.

With no nationalist or ethnic sentiments left, the path to a global government will be easy.



I know, it makes perfect sense in reality when you look at what is actually happening. America will be next.

Most people scream conspiracy when this is spoken of, but its actually blatantly fucking obvious to any one who has the brain capacity to open there eyes and look at the current situation and the last 4 decades of EU history, surrounding multiculturalism and immigration. NWO, starting with the destruction of each country's individual national identity :shrug:

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22827216 -

Bubbles85 said:
viktor said:
There's never going to be an end to it.

The political elite want to destroy all nationalist sentiments to pave the way for a global government.

In a global world, solidarity on the basis of ethnicity will not be permitted.

The first step is for the white man to lose his homeland in Europe.

Then the Asians in the Far East can have racist screamed at them for 50 years until they also accede to colonisation from the Third World.

With no nationalist or ethnic sentiments left, the path to a global government will be easy.



I know, it makes perfect sense in reality when you look at what is actually happening. America will be next.

Most people scream conspiracy when this is spoken of, but its actually blatantly fucking obvious to any one who has the brain capacity to open there eyes and look at the current situation and the last 4 decades of EU history, surrounding multiculturalism and immigration. NWO, starting with the destruction of each country's individual national identity :shrug:




This sounds a lot like the shit hammerskins used to spout out at punk shows.

I'm not connecting that with you but, the similarities are uncanny.


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22827219 -

Tipote said:
Obviously these people will be deported, that is the responsibility of our governments. Germany alone has been trying to make its deportation system even more efficient so that those who are denied refugee status can be repatriated and that those people trying to come from kosovo or macedonia are sent back.



I would like to think you are right Tipote, unfortunately tho, the political elite seem fucking clueless. They should be deported, they have no right to be here.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22827265 -

The Ecstatic said:
zappa is under the impression that if we just crush everyone hard enough, other nations and peoples will cede defeat forever.

Convenient viewpoint for an extremely hawkish neocon.  Im sure Krystol,  Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and the rest of the gang agree.



Worked quite nicely in Germany and Japan.


--------------------

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Enlil]
    #22827447 -

Throw in a couple of third world wars and then maybe...:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Icelander]
    #22827797 -

Icelander said:
I have a friend who used to post here who is currently living in Sweden and has been for at least 6  years or more. I asked him about this subject and his reply is worthy of this thread.

"​​


Quote:
It's a big issue with many sub-issues. I've been following it closely for years. I'll answer your questions one by one:

>Hey what's your take on the rise of the far right in Europe?

The far-right is an interesting term in itself. On the one had it is used by the media and many pundits to a priori dismiss people who can be identified with the far-right (guilt by association, shaming, demonization: good people agree with us, bad people think like the far-right). This encourages the idea that a PC elite control discourse and politics, thus bolstering support for the far-right. (I'm sure you recognize this basic pattern from your observations of mankind and US politics.)

On the other hand, one should ask themselves whether so-called the far-right is always far-right. What I see are parties and interest groups that mainly stand to the right of established ideology, in particular on immigration, nationalism vs. globalism, political correctness, and so on. Few of these parties and interest groups are fascist as they are often called. The majority of them are simply populist and often xenophobic. However, a large segment of the far-right sympathizers are in fact ideologically aligned with social democrats (who feel there is no better choice than the far-right at this point).

I think the far-right has in part arisen because there has been a power vacuum with the collapse of previously stronger social democratic and liberal parties who have alienated themselves from their voter bases (in favor of identity politics, globalist ideology and EU agendas), and because politics and media have moved far away from what people are experiencing while at the same time the media, police and power elite are in many cases, like in Sweden, are covering up what is in fact going on with the immigration crisis. With this in mind, I think the far right would largely lose voters if the ruling organs would come back to Earth, listen to their voters, and stop covering up the truth and so on.

You also have to look at the rhetoric and how quickly things have changed. Ignoring the roots of several far right parites in Western Europe, you can see that their suggested polices on immigration are in fact to the left of where left parties were just fifteen to twenty years ago. The official line has shifted, the people see it and they're upset. You get fired and crucified in the (social) media if you have the wrong opinions on the immigration issue. I'm not even talking about blatant racism and so on, but simply being opposed to official policy or having experiences that conflict with the mediated reality and received ideology you are expected to believe in.

>Are things getting crazy over there?

Yes. Things have been getting increasingly polarized, censored, desperate. Rapes, violent attacks and racial tensions are increasing. Housing shortages, economic problems, the EU is collapsing, immigrants wind up in unassimilated/unintegrated ghettos, Swedish infrastructure for instance is retracting and collapsing (police have to spend more and more time dealing with migrants and answering calls at shelters), gangs of migrant men from North Africa roam around Stockholm's central station on thieving and groping. They police have come forward and admitted to the problem, but no laws have been changed and nothing has been done to sway this problem. Refugees sit around watching TV at centers all day waiting to learn Swedish, get a job (there are none for low-skilled workers), etc. Fights break out, Christian and homosexual refugees get beaten up by Muslim refugees. Fight after fight. People walk into the Swedish Migration Agency and pour lighter fluid on themselves and the staff, but are stopped. Refugees and migrants don't listen to female social workers, break windows, etc. There are gypsy/Romani beggars everywhere in Sweden for a few years now. I've seen Romani people stealing and robbing others in the streets, but all the media writes about is how they need pity (and free health care, free dental care, etc., etc.), and if you call that into question you're a racist.

>Are the Muslims being scapegoated because a common enemy is needed to distract from economic woes?

To some extent, yes. Some people simply don't like foreigners or Muslims at all. I have worked with many and know several and believe I can see both sides. I think the naive humanism in the West has been extremely suicidal and dangerous. However, people are waking up to the fact that all of humanity is not one, and that cultures are in fact radically different and many of the so-called universal values of humanism and democracy indeed took hundreds of years to make reality and are not givens to the majority of people arriving here today. Just now are people getting a wake-up call: ah, yes, people from different conditions are in fact radically different. These differences of values, religion, background, education, views of women, etc., cannot be overcome by goodwill and a language course with a few well-meaning instructions about local law and mores. (And the only people who dare deal with the issue are the far-right and the so-called far-right.) Then there's the ghost of Islamic terrorism that has people on edge, including Europl's statement yesterday that ISIS is planning large-scale attacks throughout Europe.

I find it greatly amusing that the far-right is considered such a danger when the establishment itself has to extensively lie to and misinform the populace in order to maintain order. They are very much like the description and fears of their opposition.

My citizenship to a country on the otherside of the Atlantic may come in handy. My reading and insights indicate that 2016 is going to be much rougher than 2015 for Western Europe."





Wow, I would love to meet this fella. That was one of the best posts I've seen around here in a long time.

I think, at least here in America, the left is beginning to understand that it needs to hone its message and ideals, as they have grown out of whack. For instance, defending the Charlie Hebdo attackers. Another example is the feminist garbage that gets trotted out so often by big name political figures, and has no basis in reality.

Left and right cannot be so rigid and narrowly defined as the media would like us to believe they are. You're suppose to pick one side and line up with their positions on a slew of unrelated issues, and then hate the other side for not agreeing with the leadership of your own.

Democracy has been hijacked in this way. We have allowed our critical thinking skills to take a back seat to the spoon fed models that we are given. Maybe because it is easy, and our lives are busy. I don't know, but when you talk to the average person on the street, they are not very well informed on political events, or ideology. Most people don't even have an acceptably mediocre understanding of these things. The world is quite confusing, and has grown smaller and faster. I'm sure that plays a part also.

Anyways, great post!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Enlil]
    #22828054 -

Enlil said:
That sounds like something that belongs in the conspiracy forum.



History and politics are basically one conspiracy after another. The English conspired against the native Americans to take their lands. Then America conspired against Britain to launch a revolutionary war. Then Hitler conspired against the English. Then we conspired against the Russians.

I don't doubt there are Islamofascists conspiring to get their fighters into Europe right now, just as there are Eurofascists conspiring to get the Muslims.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor]
    #22828159 -

How can hitler conspire to do anything?  It takes at least two people for a conspiracy.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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