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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22806990 -

What we have today is certainly not capitalism.  It more resembles fascism.

In many European intellectual circles fascism used to be called "a Capitalist reaction to socialism"  meaning, socialists create massive power centers and control over the economy in which the fascists come and take over. 

In terms you guys might understand;  capitalists capitalise on the centralized government and and economic centralized power which the socialists set up and create.  This is how fascism comes to be.  And national socialism, while perhaps well intentioned, has the practical result of empowering fascism. Thus is how hitler rose to power.



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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Edited by Shins (01/21/16 02:53 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins]
    #22807026 -

as a Capitalist and libertarian, I aim to prevent thus great danger of fascism.  The best way I know is to reduce centralized power in government.  Centralized power has also been identified as the main factor which leads to fascism.

It's not like I hate the poor and love the rich, it's the fact that socialism is incredibly dangerous, and on top of that, it's not even economically sound.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins]
    #22807033 -

Shins said:
What we have today is certainly not capitalism.  It more resembles fascism.

In many European intellectual circles fascism used to be called "a Capitalist reaction to socialism"  meaning, socialists create massive power centers and control over the economy in which the fascists come and take over. 

In terms you guys might understand;  capitalists capitalise on the centralized government and and economic centralized power which the socialists set up and create.  This is how fascism comes to be.  And national socialism, while perhaps well intentioned, has the practical result of empowering fascism. Thus is how hitler rose to power.




This was what I suggested earlier about Stalin vs Lenin & Trosky.

They set-up a machine, compromised its integrity during the civil war, and along comes Mr.Rainbow

:stalin:



If not him, someone else. If they didn't compromise their system, someone else would have.
And of course, if they weren't socialist, it would have happened anyways :shrug:

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Repertoire89]
    #22807079 -

Exactly.  Socialism is a perfect example of the law of unintended consequences


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins]
    #22807093 -

Auto-Summary
This forum post critiques the false dichotomy often presented by leftists, which pits communism and fascism as the only choices for societies, dismissing capitalism. The author argues that both fascism and communism are forms of statism and socialism, with the main difference being the target of oppression: the proletariat in communism and the race in fascism. Both systems claim to protect the "common good" while actually enslaving individuals, whether through collectivist ideals or racial supremacy. The post emphasizes that the real issue is individual rights versus totalitarian government, not rich versus poor. It also discusses how both systems use sacrifice and the concept of the "public good" to justify their rule, and how they differ stylistically in their promises and rhetoric. The author concludes by warning against the collectivist mindset that seeks to sacrifice the individual to the state, urging readers to fight for individual rights instead.

sm



For many decades, the leftists have been propagating the false dichotomy that the choice confronting the world is only: communism or fascism—a dictatorship of the left or of an alleged right—with the possibility of a free society, of capitalism, dismissed and obliterated, as if it had never existed.

“The Presidential Candidates 1968,”
The Objectivist, June 1968, 5



[Some “moderates” are trying to] revive that old saw of pre-World War II vintage, the notion that the two political opposites confronting us, the two “extremes,” are: fascism versus communism.

The political origin of that notion is more shameful than the “moderates” would care publicly to admit. Mussolini came to power by claiming that that was the only choice confronting Italy. Hitler came to power by claiming that that was the only choice confronting Germany. It is a matter of record that in the German election of 1933, the Communist Party was ordered by its leaders to vote for the Nazis—with the explanation that they could later fight the Nazis for power, but first they had to help destroy their common enemy: capitalism and its parliamentary form of government.

It is obvious what the fraudulent issue of fascism versus communism accomplishes: it sets up, as opposites, two variants of the same political system; it eliminates the possibility of considering capitalism; it switches the choice of “Freedom or dictatorship?” into “Which kind of dictatorship?”—thus establishing dictatorship as an inevitable fact and offering only a choice of rulers. The choice—according to the proponents of that fraud—is: a dictatorship of the rich (fascism) or a dictatorship of the poor (communism).

That fraud collapsed in the 1940’s, in the aftermath of World War II. It is too obvious, too easily demonstrable that fascism and communism are not two opposites, but two rival gangs fighting over the same territory—that both are variants of statism, based on the collectivist principle that man is the rightless slave of the state—that both are socialistic, in theory, in practice, and in the explicit statements of their leaders—that under both systems, the poor are enslaved and the rich are expropriated in favor of a ruling clique—that fascism is not the product of the political “right,” but of the “left”—that the basic issue is not “rich versus poor,” but man versus the state, or: individual rights versus totalitarian government—which means: capitalism versus socialism.

“‘Extremism,’ or the Art of Smearing,”
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 180



The main characteristic of socialism (and of communism) is public ownership of the means of production, and, therefore, the abolition of private property. The right to property is the right of use and disposal. Under fascism, men retain the semblance or pretense of private property, but the government holds total power over its use and disposal . . . .

Under fascism, citizens retain the responsibilities of owning property, without freedom to act and without any of the advantages of ownership. Under socialism, government officials acquire all the advantages of ownership, without any of the responsibilities, since they do not hold title to the property, but merely the right to use it—at least until the next purge. In either case, the government officials hold the economic, political and legal power of life or death over the citizens . . . .

Under both systems, sacrifice is invoked as a magic, omnipotent solution in any crisis—and “the public good” is the altar on which victims are immolated. But there are stylistic differences of emphasis. The socialist-communist axis keeps promising to achieve abundance, material comfort and security for its victims, in some indeterminate future. The fascist-Nazi axis scorns material comfort and security, and keeps extolling some undefined sort of spiritual duty, service and conquest. The socialist-communist axis offers its victims an alleged social ideal. The fascist-Nazi axis offers nothing but loose talk about some unspecified form of racial or national“greatness.” The socialist-communist axis proclaims some grandiose economic plan, which keeps receding year by year. The fascist-Nazi axis merely extols leadership—leadership without purpose, program or direction—and power for power’s sake.

“The Fascist New Frontier,”
The Ayn Rand Column, 98



Look at Europe . . . . Can’t you see past the guff and recognize the essence? One country is dedicated to the proposition that man has no rights, that the collective is all. The individual held as evil, the mass—as God. No motive and no virtue permitted—except that of service to the proletariat. That’s one version [communism]. Here’s another. A country dedicated to the proposition that man has no rights, that the State is all. The individual held as evil, the race—as God. No motive and no virtue permitted—except that of service to the race [fascism]. Am I raving or is this the cold reality of two continents already? Watch the pincer movement. If you’re sick of one version, we push you into the other. We get you coming and going. We’ve closed the doors. We’ve fixed the coin. Heads—collectivism, and tails—collectivism. Fight the doctrine which slaughters the individual with a doctrine which slaughters the individual. Give up your soul to a council—or give it up to a leader. But give it up, give it up, give it up. My technique . . . . Offer poison as food and poison as antidote.

“The Soul of a Collectivist,”
For the New Intellectual, 76



[Adolf Hitler on Nazism and socialism:] “Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be regulated by the party as the representative of the general good. There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual belongs to himself. This is Socialism—not such trifles as the private possession of the means of production. Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape? Let them then own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the party, is supreme over them, regardless whether they are owners or workers. All that, you see, is unessential. Our Socialism goes far deeper . . . .

“[T]he people about us are unaware of what is really happening to them. They gaze fascinated at one or two familiar superficialities, such as possessions and income and rank and other outworn conceptions. As long as these are kept intact, they are quite satisfied. But in the meantime they have entered a new relation; a powerful social force has caught them up. They themselves are changed. What are ownership and income to that? Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings.”

(Adolf Hitler to Hermann Rauschning, quoted by) Leonard Peikoff,
The Ominous Parallels, 231



Through the agency of three new guilds (the Food Estate, the Estate of Trade and Industry, and the Labor Front), the government assumed control of every group of producers and consumers in the country. In accordance with the method of “German socialism,” the facade of a market economy was retained. All prices, wages, and interest rates, however, were “fixed by the central authority. They [were] prices, wages, and interest rates in appearance only; in reality they [were] merely determinations of quantity relations in the government’s orders . . . . This is socialism in the outward guise of capitalism.”

The nation’s businessmen retained the responsibility to produce and suffered the losses attendant on failure. The state determined the purpose and conditions of their production, and reaped the benefits; directly or indirectly, it expropriated all profits. “The time is past,” explained the Nazi Minister of Economics, “when the notion of economic self-seeking and unrestricted use of profits made can be allowed to dominate . . . . The economic system must serve the nation.”

“What a dummkopf I was!” cried steel baron Fritz Thyssen, an early Nazi supporter, who fled the country . . . .

As to Hitler’s pledges to the poorer groups: the Republic’s social insurance budgets were greatly increased, and a variety of welfare funds, programs, agencies, and policies were introduced or expanded, including special provisions for such items as unemployment relief, workmen’s compensation, health insurance, pensions, Winter Help campaigns for the destitute, the Reich Mothers’ Service for indigent mothers and children, and the National Socialist People’s Welfare organization.

Leonard Peikoff, 
The Ominous Parallels, 230



During the Hitler years—in order to finance the party’s programs, including the war expenditures—every social group in Germany was mercilessly exploited and drained. White-collar salaries and the earnings of small businessmen were deliberately held down by government controls, freezes, taxes. Big business was bled by taxes and “special contributions” of every kind, and strangled by the bureaucracy . . . . At the same time the income of the farmers was held down, and there was a desperate flight to the cities—where the middle class, especially the small tradesmen, were soon in desperate straits, and where the workers were forced to labor at low wages for increasingly longer hours (up to 60 or more per week).

But the Nazis defended their policies, and the country did not rebel; it accepted the Nazi argument. Selfish individuals may be unhappy, the Nazis said, but what we have established in Germany is the ideal system,socialism. In its Nazi usage this term is not restricted to a theory of economics; it is to be understood in a fundamental sense. “Socialism” for the Nazis denotes the principle of collectivism as such and its corollary, statism—in every field of human action, including but not limited to economics.

“To be a socialist,” says Goebbels, “is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole.”

By this definition, the Nazis practiced what they preached. They practiced it at home and then abroad. No one can claim that they did not sacrifice enough individuals.

Leonard Peikoff, 
The Ominous Parallels, 19

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/fascism_and_communism-socialism.html


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins]
    #22807110 -

*snip

Quote:
[Adolf Hitler on Nazism and socialism:] “Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be regulated by the party as the representative of the general good. There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual belongs to himself. This is Socialism—not such trifles as the private possession of the means of production. Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape? Let them then own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the party, is supreme over them, regardless whether they are owners or workers. All that, you see, is unessential. Our Socialism goes far deeper . . . .

“[T]he people about us are unaware of what is really happening to them. They gaze fascinated at one or two familiar superficialities, such as possessions and income and rank and other outworn conceptions. As long as these are kept intact, they are quite satisfied. But in the meantime they have entered a new relation; a powerful social force has caught them up. They themselves are changed. What are ownership and income to that? Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings.”

(Adolf Hitler to Hermann Rauschning, quoted by) Leonard Peikoff,
The Ominous Parallels, 231




Thus us chillingly similar to the situation in America today.. you guys fall under the category hitler describes as “[T]he people about us are unaware of what is really happening to them. They gaze fascinated at one or two familiar superficialities, such as possessions and income and rank and other outworn conceptions."

That statement describes the American left to a T

Chilling.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Edited by Shins (01/21/16 03:36 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins] * 1
    #22807516 -

lolololollolololooololololool another thread where shins is arguing while learning and then trying to use hard right wing shit like ( http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/fascism_and_communism-socialism.html ; ) to prove his point.

here let me help you bud, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum
Quote:
Most long-standing spectra include a right wing and left wing, which originally referred to seating arrangements in the French parliament after the Revolution (1789–99).[1] According to the simplest left–right axis, communism and socialism are usually regarded internationally as being on the left, opposite fascism and conservatism on the right.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Quote:
Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism. Fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[3][4]



now if you're trying to argue against socialism because "that's how the nazi's got into power" well that's a weak stance. if you're trying to say that it's the sole benefactor leading into a fascist state well then again you're generally incorrect as far as history goes.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay]
    #22807628 -

Anarchism is the far right.  Stop regurgitating biased articles. Those citations are trash. fascism opposed Anarchism, the far right.

Fascism and Socialism are both 2 competing statist systems which oppose capitalism and right wing economics




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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins] * 1
    #22807653 -

nope you're simply wrong as the above links have shown.

and as an anarchist, your definition is very very far off from anything anarchistic I've personally been involved in.

Please visit http://1919hemphill.org/ and see what an anarchistic center looks like, I've volunteered here since 2003 and can vouch that there is nothing remotely right wing going on.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay] * 1
    #22807666 -

also please explain to me how the Spanish revolution of 36 was a right wing movement?


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay]
    #22807679 -

airclay said:
also please explain to me how the Spanish revolution of 36 was a right wing movement?



Is that 36 ad?


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay] * 1
    #22807692 -

what about the uprising against the bolsheviks in the early 1920's?


wait lemme think I'm sure there are more classic examples of anarchist not being right wingers.

how about the Paris commune?

what about all the soldiers in Rojava right now flying the green and black flags fighting FSA, assad and isis? Do you know anything about the kurdish state of Rojava happening right now and it's political leanings?


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22807695 -

hostileuniverse said:
airclay said:
also please explain to me how the Spanish revolution of 36 was a right wing movement?



Is that 36 ad?




sorry I forgot we need to put bumpers on things for the babies, it's 1936, which I guess already shows your knowledge here.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins] * 2
    #22807704 -

Shins said:
Malkuthian said:
Shins said:
That is not capitalism :facepalm: and our current society is not capitalist. :facepalm:

Capitalism is literally the private ownership of means of production.




Just a question:
Who currently owns the means of production?



Put simply; a combination of government, central bank, and to a certain degree, private owners.



Private owners. To a small degree government. You are fucking lost, dude.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #22807988 -

zappaisgod said:
Supporting the Palestinians is supporting the eradication of Israel.



Thats absolutely not true. Even Hamas will accept peace on 1967 lines and a right of return.

What about the Jewish groups against the occupation? They are Jews from all over the world, including Israel. Do they support the eradication of Israel when they support the Palestinians?


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22807991 -

:nod:
Bigbadwooof said:
Shins said:
Put simply; a combination of government, central bank, and to a certain degree, private owners.



Private owners. To a small degree government. You are fucking lost, dude.



:awesomenod:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22807999 -

Bigbadwooof said:
Shins said:
Malkuthian said:
Shins said:
That is not capitalism :facepalm: and our current society is not capitalist. :facepalm:

Capitalism is literally the private ownership of means of production.




Just a question:
Who currently owns the means of production?



Put simply; a combination of government, central bank, and to a certain degree, private owners.



Private owners. To a small degree government.



True, and WHO makes the rules, laws and regulations that all these "privately" owned businesses are REQUIRED to follow?


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Enlil]
    #22808034 -

Enlil said:
Why do you keep calling him Bernice?



i asked him the same thing. I think he is saying that women are bad?


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22808055 -

I am starting to think the same thing.  He calls Obama "Obowelmovement" which is clearly to denigrate Obama.  I can't think of any reason to call Bernard Sanders, "Bernice" unless he somehow thinks it's an insult to have a female name.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay]
    #22808084 -

airclay said:
what about the uprising against the bolsheviks in the early 1920's?

wait lemme think I'm sure there are more classic examples of anarchist not being right wingers.
how about the Paris commune?

what about all the soldiers in Rojava right now flying the green and black flags fighting FSA, assad and isis? Do you know anything about the kurdish state of Rojava happening right now and it's political leanings?



:thumbup:


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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