You know what... I can't do this shit anymore. Right wing America is FUCKING STUPID.
I can't even explain basic concepts so that we can properly discuss economics. The Capitalists around here don't even understand Capitalism, how the fuck can we even begin to describe Socialism?
Shins said:
Bigbadwooof said:
There is your definition of means of production, and then there's the definition in economics, which we use for the purpose of discussion about economics. Human labor only falls within this definition if you are referring to slave labor. Nobody is referring to slave labor. In the google example they are referring to the factories, machinery, land, and raw materials as being communally owned.
No my definition is exactly the same.
Human labour is a resource. That's why they cal it human resources. Haven't you every heard of a human resource department? Labour is the most important mean of production and everyone intrinsically owns their own labour and them self. You are cherry picking only the means of production that fit with your bias.
Slavery is owning the means of production of other people. Interestingly government ownership of means of production is in fact slavery to the government, which is what you seem to want.
I want each individual to have human rights which include owning your own life and owning your own means of production. Is that so much to ask?
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That's your view. I am not a Communist Libertarian myself anyway. I was just pointing out that there are very left wing ideologies that require no centralized government. I was trying to demonstrate that the size of government is not the only factor in left vs right wing politics.
This is neither here nor there. Your fictitious scenario is no more legitimate or relevant to objective reality than is any other work of fiction. What you are still struggling to understand is that these ideas are myths, and when they are perused in objective reality, they have the result of growing the size of government, because a giant authoritarian government is necessary to achieve those ideals in reality.
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Our current society requires everyone to get along. If they don't, they go to jail. We have the most massive police state in the world. This is CAPITALISM.
Oh boy... that's really triggering me... stay calm Shins stay calm.
That is not capitalism  and our current society is not capitalist.
Capitalism is literally the private ownership of means of production.
None of anything you said has anything to do with that? Where did you learn that stuff? It's utter bullshit.
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Now if you're talking about private co-ops I'm all for it, as long as you can enter and leave as you wish, and as long as the government does not force you to be a part of it. These types of organizations exist today and you could join one tomorrow.
I am very much in favor of a situation such as this, but I would prefer an economy that was entirely composed of this sort of organization.
That is impossible.
That would assume that every person in the world would voluntarily join. That is utterly ridiculous and a compete fiction. The only way to compel everyone to join is to FORCE them. With GUNS, GOVERENT, and the threat of CAGES, revoking their human rights. Your ideals require an authoritarian, Nazi-like government in order to force everyone to play along.
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We are living in a Capitalist economy. Capitalists Capitalize on existing Capital to create exponential gains, which concentrates wealth, and therefore power. Hence the name 'Capitalism'. Capitalism is only good for the Capitalist. Given a long enough timeline, wealth will always concentrate under a Capitalist system.
Don't get me wrong, Capitalism has done some great things in the world, but many of us feel that it has run its course, and we want something better. You can't argue that Capitalism doesn't concentrate wealth and power unless you don't understand economics, because that's exactly what it does, by design. If you wish you argue on behalf of Capitalism, then you must take the route of defending the concentration of wealth and power. A good Capitalist sees no problem with this.
No, that is not capitalism. You have consistently shown that you do not know the definition of the word capitalism. We cannot possibly have a productive discussion if you do not even know basic definitions of common political terms. You should also make sure to learn these things before you comment.
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This is all really beside the point though. We were comparing Fascism and Socialism. I asked for you to tell me the difference between the two. Are you aware of the differences? The reason Fascism is considered right wing can be found in those differences. As I said, right and left are not defined the same way throughout the world as they are here. In America, right and left politics are very simplified, to the size of government. There are a whole host of other issues that get swallowed up by one side or the other, but in America, we deem right-wing as small government, and left wing as big government. I have described how left-wing political ideology can exist without the involvement of centralized government whatsoever. It really muddies up the American model, which would have you calling Communist Libertarians conservatives.
Fascism and Socialism both aim to take over the means of production by force. Perusing a socialist government sets up the foundation for fascists to take over all that power, this is the inevitable result of socialism. Read "The Road to Surfdom" by F.A. Hayek. He explains it quite well and won a Nobel prize in economics for this book.
You have describes a mythological scenario which is not logically sound, when you apply logic and deduction, it is literally impossible to have stateless national communism. It relies on every single person to consent, which would never ever happen. You are required to have an authoritarian governent to keep everyone in line. What a nightmare!
Fascism doesn't aim to take over the means of production at all. You don't fucking understand anything. The economic definition of 'means of production' does not include human labor, unless that labor is slave labor. You can't even understand why that is.
You don't understand Capitalism, yet you claim to understand Fascism and Socialism.
Why won't right wing America stop taking hard-line positions on things they have no fucking clue about, and don't even wish to learn about?
I described Capitalism perfectly. Yes, it is the private ownership of the means of production (that doesn't mean the Capitalist owns my labor, when I work for him). A Capitalist is a person within a society who Capitalizes on their ownership of the means of production. You don't even fucking understand Capitalism, why are you defending it?
You need to go study this stuff, because clearly you haven't. You think it's absurd that I have an informed opinion lol!
I'm done with you dude. Oh, and what the fuck does 'human resources' have to do with anything? Did you think that was clever? 
Jesus...
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