hostileuniverse said:

Enlil said:

hostileuniverse said:

Nailed it! That's what's so infuriating about ideologues, so determined to prove the other side wrong and their side as "pure as the driven snow" they overlook obvious facts...

---

Lol, you described yourself perfectly.

---

akira_akuma said:

precisely.

---

And if y'all weren't so damn partisan, you would see I've criticized the right many times in these threads too, I guess you aren't paying attention (not surprising) or you just believe what you want to, typical of ideologues...

---

Am I one of these 'ideologue's' you speak of? I criticize liberals all the time, for their faults. Enlil criticizes left and right. He doesn't even know where he stands, how the fuck would you know?

Is qman an ideologue? He's about as center as a person can be. Certainly to a flaw.

I have yet to see you criticize the right. You won't even criticize right wing lunatics like Rush Limbaugh!

Name one time! One thing on the right that you've criticized, and it better not be combovers or side-parts!

Shins said:

God you guys are in such denial.  All you do is recite other people you do not think for yourself.

The Nazis clearly had LEFT WING economic policies and RIGHT WING social policies.


Use your brain and think about it yourself,  instead of frantically searching Google for an article which supports your false beliefs.

---

And yet this guy says I support Nazi policies    The guy who wants Israel eradicated.  There is nothing he writes that should be granted the least bit of credibility. 

Mod edit:  Removed personal attack.

Tsuun said:

There has been war in Afghanistan for the last 38 years, but for a long time there was relatively minor emigration beyond the million plus that went to Iran. The only reason why Afghans are coming to Europe now is because the outer borders of Europe have failed, and because Turkey has deliberately let the smugglers through.

And Afghanistan is most definitely a failed state, currently in civil war with the taliban on the rise again.

>nobody is saying the EU should take everyone from all these places, just that all countries need to play a part in dealing with what is a global issue - war and the fall out from war.

Sure, but if we think of it this way, are Syrian & Afghan refugees safe in Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon? Yes they are, What is the cost of housing refugees in those countries, well, fuck all compared to the cost of taking them into Europe, the cost of all social services, police, crimes, education and medical  is so incredibly huge it will bring down our the entire welfare system we have in place. Seeing the back-pedalling from the Swedish government who before said that this will be nothing but a gain for society and then at least partially shutting our borders a couple months later just proves that the strain is too big.

And who wins when we in Sweden have 90K extra people to take care of, who most of won't get integrated? Nobody wins.

---

zappaisgod said:

Shins said:

God you guys are in such denial.  All you do is recite other people you do not think for yourself.

The Nazis clearly had LEFT WING economic policies and RIGHT WING social policies.


Use your brain and think about it yourself,  instead of frantically searching Google for an article which supports your false beliefs.

---

And yet this guy says I support Nazi policies    The guy who wants Israel eradicated.  There is nothing he writes that should be granted the least bit of credibility.  He is completely and utterly bereft of any intellect or conceptual integrity.

---

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Shins said:

Socialism is the state controlling the means of production, not the people.  When the people own the means of production it is called CAPITALISM.  RIGHT WING!

---

You don't seem to know what "the people" is.  Corporate oligarchs aren't "the people".  When "the people" own the means of production it is called SOCIALISM.

---

zappaisgod said:

Shins said:

God you guys are in such denial.  All you do is recite other people you do not think for yourself.

The Nazis clearly had LEFT WING economic policies and RIGHT WING social policies.


Use your brain and think about it yourself,  instead of frantically searching Google for an article which supports your false beliefs.

---

And yet this guy says I support Nazi policies    The guy who wants Israel eradicated.  There is nothing he writes that should be granted the least bit of credibility.  He is completely and utterly bereft of any intellect or conceptual integrity.

---

Shins said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Shins said:

Socialism is the state controlling the means of production, not the people.  When the people own the means of production it is called CAPITALISM.  RIGHT WING!

---

You don't seem to know what "the people" is.  Corporate oligarchs aren't "the people".  When "the people" own the means of production it is called SOCIALISM.

---

No, the only way "the people" can own national production -communally- is with authoritarian government.  Socialism is state ownership of production.

Capitalism is private means of production.  It means every individual (the people) owns the means to his own production.  In other words, he/she owns him/herself.

---

Shins said:

zappaisgod said:

Shins said:

God you guys are in such denial.  All you do is recite other people you do not think for yourself.

The Nazis clearly had LEFT WING economic policies and RIGHT WING social policies.


Use your brain and think about it yourself,  instead of frantically searching Google for an article which supports your false beliefs.

---

And yet this guy says I support Nazi policies    The guy who wants Israel eradicated.  There is nothing he writes that should be granted the least bit of credibility.  He is completely and utterly bereft of any intellect or conceptual integrity.

---

I'm reporting you for this

That is complete nonsense and personal defamation.  I have never once called for the eradication of Israel.  Criticizing Israel and political zionism is not a call for holocaust. Get a grip.

---

Bigbadwooof said:

You have to understand how the term 'means of production' is defined in economics to partake in this discussion. A basic foundation of economic theory would be nice too.

---

Quote:

As I have said, there are strains of communist ideology that have no centralized government whatsoever. They would operate by the workers owning their workplace. In other words having equal shares in whatever business they are involved in. Cooperatives. I could go into greater detail, but I will leave it there.

---

Quote:

he way things are done in the world today only serves to concentrate wealth, and therefore power. At the end of the day I would rather have power concentrated in the hands of people who are democratically elected, chosen by society, than unelected individuals who control the government, and bear no responsibility to the public interest.

---

Shins said:

You cannot vote to take away people's rights.

---

Shins said:

Bigbadwooof said:

You have to understand how the term 'means of production' is defined in economics to partake in this discussion. A basic foundation of economic theory would be nice too.

---

I do, do you?  Means of production are not just things like factories and machines.  Things like Labour, time, and skills are also means of production.  In fact labour is by far the biggest mean of production I can think of.

---

Quote:

Quote:

As I have said, there are strains of communist ideology that have no centralized government whatsoever. They would operate by the workers owning their workplace. In other words having equal shares in whatever business they are involved in. Cooperatives. I could go into greater detail, but I will leave it there.

---

Those are fiction.

---

Quote:

Quote:

The way things are done in the world today only serves to concentrate wealth, and therefore power. At the end of the day I would rather have power concentrated in the hands of people who are democratically elected, chosen by society, than unelected individuals who control the government, and bear no responsibility to the public interest.

---

I agree, that's why we need to go back to a Capitalist economy.  Socialist concentration of centralized power has created a revolving door of wall st and government who pay themselves huge amounts of money out of the public purse.  We née to reduce centralized power and restore it to the people.  You want to increase government power, not power to the people.  Even if that's not your goal, those are your unintended results.  It makes no sense to turn to give the government more power if you want more people power, that's the opposite!

---

Bigbadwooof said:

There is your definition of means of production, and then there's the definition in economics, which we use for the purpose of discussion about economics. Human labor only falls within this definition if you are referring to slave labor. Nobody is referring to slave labor. In the google example they are referring to the factories, machinery, land, and raw materials as being communally owned.

---

Quote:

That's your view. I am not a Communist Libertarian myself anyway. I was just pointing out that there are very left wing ideologies that require no centralized government. I was trying to demonstrate that the size of government is not the only factor in left vs right wing politics.

---

Quote:

Our current society requires everyone to get along. If they don't, they go to jail. We have the most massive police state in the world. This is CAPITALISM.

---

Oh boy... that's really triggering me... stay calm Shins stay calm.

That is not capitalism and our current society is not capitalist.

Capitalism is literally the private ownership of means of production.

None of anything you said has anything to do with that?  Where did you learn that stuff?  It's utter bullshit.

Quote:

Quote:

Now if you're talking about private co-ops I'm all for it, as long as you can enter and leave as you wish, and as long as the government does not force you to be a part of it. These types of organizations exist today and you could join one tomorrow.

---

I am very much in favor of a situation such as this, but I would prefer an economy that was entirely composed of this sort of organization.

---

Shins said:

zappaisgod said:

Shins said:

God you guys are in such denial.  All you do is recite other people you do not think for yourself.

The Nazis clearly had LEFT WING economic policies and RIGHT WING social policies.


Use your brain and think about it yourself,  instead of frantically searching Google for an article which supports your false beliefs.

---

And yet this guy says I support Nazi policies    The guy who wants Israel eradicated.  There is nothing he writes that should be granted the least bit of credibility.  He is completely and utterly bereft of any intellect or conceptual integrity.

---

I'm reporting you for this

That is complete nonsense and personal defamation.  I have never once called for the eradication of Israel.  Criticizing Israel and political zionism is not a call for holocaust. Get a grip.

---