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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins]
    #22785985 -

Shins said:
Here's a metaphor - if you are lost in the woods you must work to gather things to sustain your life, you need to make a living for yourself.  If you do not produce enough to survive, you have not produced a living and you die. 

Just because someone shows up for 8 hours does necessarily mean he has done enough work to equal "a living"  if someone produces less than "a living"  they do not deserve to be paid "a living"  they in fact do not even deserve to live.  In the wild there is no government to save you.  You would have been naturally selected as a weak member of the species.



:facepalm: You should try to avoid making absurd biological arguments to support your political views, especially if you're not well versed in evolutionary biology. First of all, humans have not evolved to live on our own, in fact many of our closest ancestors didn't live alone either. We've been living in communities since the dawn of our species. Much like an individual ant or bee (in the vast majority of species) could not survive on its own but thrives in a group, humans thrive when in a group.

Furthermore, you make the "do not deserve to live" argument, implying that somehow there is no selective pressure; that somehow evolution has stopped for these individuals, otherwise they would be dead. Selective pressures change and can be difficult to pinpoint, but it's a law of nature that humans are not exempt from. You picture selective pressures as being able to collect your food and avoid predators, but modern selective pressures come from things like disease on an individual level, and the ability to adapt to global changes on a societal level. I assure you, any individual traits that are not advantageous, are being removed from the population in an evolutionary sense, I just think you disagree with nature on what those traits are.

Finally, it's worth pointing out, that even if humans evolved to live alone (which the data do not support) and if evolution selected for the traits you think it would select for, natural selection does not work simply by killing off weaker individuals. You are forgetting about sexual selection; the weakest don't necessarily die, but they do not get to mate as often. The "do not deserve to live" argument, as wrong as it is, is better phrased as a "do not deserve to reproduce" argument.


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DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins] * 1
    #22786126 -

Shins said:
Immigrants overwhelmingly vote democrat.  Enough said.



I don't think enough was said.  What relevance does that have to this discussion?  Are you trying to show that conservatives are bigots?  I'm not sure what your point is.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bubbles85] * 1
    #22786147 -

Bubbles85 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
Bubbles85 said:
Cultural diversity's a scam. A fabricated phenomenon, used by the political elite to halt any objection toward there will.



Huh? This is just about the dumbest thing I've read in days. Cultural diversity is real, bruh!



Cultural diversity or "multiculturalism" is a forced phenomenon that has happened with out vote for, or against it. Multiculturalism is a fabricated term, used by the political establishment to try to justify and at the same time, halt objection to there failed concept, of importing millions of foreigners into the West.



Honestly, as the world gets smaller, people are going to have to get accustomed to multiculturalism. We can't press on indefinitely into the future without integrating and learning to get along.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22786273 -

Bigbadwooof said:
Bubbles85 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
Bubbles85 said:
Cultural diversity's a scam. A fabricated phenomenon, used by the political elite to halt any objection toward there will.



Huh? This is just about the dumbest thing I've read in days. Cultural diversity is real, bruh!



Cultural diversity or "multiculturalism" is a forced phenomenon that has happened with out vote for, or against it. Multiculturalism is a fabricated term, used by the political establishment to try to justify and at the same time, halt objection to there failed concept, of importing millions of foreigners into the West.



Honestly, as the world gets smaller, people are going to have to get accustomed to multiculturalism. We can't press on indefinitely into the future without integrating and learning to get along.



Yes you're right. I don't disagree, concerning the people who have come into the west, legally, make a positive contribution to our country's and are not criminals.

I'm in the motor trade here in the UK and i work closely with many European and non European migrants and for the most part, most of them, are decent hard working people, who i get along with well.

These people in my opinion, can stay and deserve to stay.

My problem comes, from the people looking to take advantage of the system. Either by means of criminal activity, illegal immigration, false asylum applications, or what ever it may be, that is negatively impacting on my home country and society here as a whole and The EU's position on current events, is exacerbating this sort of shit to disproportionate levels.

Immigration needs to be capped, with a points based system put in place, that allows us to choose the quality of the individuals entering the country.

All illegal immigrants currently living here, should be deported, as should those who have entered by legal means and continually break the law and we "in the UK anyway" need to take back control our own boarders and govern our own country, away from the European Union.

Edited by Bubbles85 (01/16/16 02:59 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22786458 -

Bubbles85 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
Bubbles85 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
Bubbles85 said:
Cultural diversity's a scam. A fabricated phenomenon, used by the political elite to halt any objection toward there will.



Huh? This is just about the dumbest thing I've read in days. Cultural diversity is real, bruh!



Cultural diversity or "multiculturalism" is a forced phenomenon that has happened with out vote for, or against it. Multiculturalism is a fabricated term, used by the political establishment to try to justify and at the same time, halt objection to there failed concept, of importing millions of foreigners into the West.



Honestly, as the world gets smaller, people are going to have to get accustomed to multiculturalism. We can't press on indefinitely into the future without integrating and learning to get along.



Yes you're right. I don't disagree, concerning the people who have come into the west, legally, make a positive contribution to our country's and are not criminals.

I'm in the motor trade here in the UK and i work closely with many European and non European migrants and for the most part, most of them, are decent hard working people, who i get along with well.

These people in my opinion, can stay and deserve to stay.

My problem comes, from the people looking to take advantage of the system. Either by means of criminal activity, illegal immigration, false asylum applications, or what ever it may be, that is negatively impacting on my home country and society here as a whole and The EU's position on current events, is exacerbating this sort of shit to disproportionate levels.

Immigration needs to be capped, with a points based system put in place, that allows us to choose the quality of the individuals entering the country.

All illegal immigrants currently living here, should be deported, as should those who have entered by legal means and continually break the law and we "in the UK anyway" need to take back control our own boarders and govern our own country, away from the European Union.



Well, you have a set of arguments that are not baseless, though we may not agree on all of those points. I think mass immigration events are much more difficult to deal with, because they are so abrupt, and so vast.

Your argument doesn't seem to make the case that 'multiculturalism' itself is to blame.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22786627 -

Well, multiculturalism for the most part, seems to be a failed concept in my opinion, with the people who have come into the UK, in the last few decades.

Non EU migrants who are 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation, seem to have integrated alot better, than the newer arrivals and have seemingly now spread out in to the wider community. But these people, from the earliest days of non EU migration, are in a massive minority compared to the newer arrivals.

From my perspective and from what i see, new, non EU migrants, are focused soley on creating there own community's right across the country, where they do not assimilate with people, from different ethnic, or cultural backgrounds and this is a problem.

Its driving a huge wedge between different ethnic groups and instead of creating social harmony and a place where we can all co-exist in peace, its creating tensions and just reinforcing the masses perception, that these people are against us and our values. Which i can fully understand, because they do not integrate.

The fact that has allowed this to happen, is the sheer number of people that have been allowed to come in to the country, all at the same time and completely uncontrolled. Mostly during the Labour governments most recent power between 1997-2010.

Its a flawed concept, to allow so many people to come into a country, in such mass numbers, that they do not have to integrate with the wider community.

We can't just get rid of them, so we need to focus interests on assimilation and integration.

This has to happen, before we allow more migrants to come in to the country, that will ultimately, at this point, not integrate as well.

Edited by Bubbles85 (01/16/16 04:59 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bubbles85] * 1
    #22786848 -

maybe you could try harder to integrate some of the new culture into your life? the best way to change something is do it yourself. The onus isn't necessarily on the refugees to westernize immediately and make your life easier. Your local culture is changing, get out there and change with it. And remember any complaints about it not being safe, easy or fun are a two way street for both you and the refugees.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay] * 2
    #22786920 -

I think you're perspective, that the native populace should be expected to make changes to there lives, to better suit non EU migrants is wrong. I disagree with it entirely.

They have chosen to come and live in my home country, not the other way around. Hence, they should be the ones making a concerted effort, to assimilate in to the way life works here. Not creating mini Baghdad's all over the show, in the Western world.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bubbles85] * 1
    #22786932 -

I said it was a two way road. It's an equal responsibility. How do you expect any one to assimilate into an un-welcoming culture? How do you expect to understand your own local culture when you've chosen to alienate an entire new faction?


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

Edited by airclay (01/16/16 05:58 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay] * 2
    #22786960 -

No, you said "maybe i could try harder to integrate some of the new culture into my life" Why should the native populace be forced to make sacrifices to there own lives, when they never asked, or voted for any of what has been allowed to happen?

If an immigrant wants to come to another country to live, then they should be the ones who make the concerted effort to change there lives, to better integrate into the society that they have chosen to come to. Not the other way around.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay]
    #22786981 -

and that's why you think multiculturalism is a fail, when in reality you're just socially lazy or inept or both

I think you missed some of this post as well:
airclay said:
maybe you could try harder to integrate some of the new culture into your life? the best way to change something is do it yourself. The onus isn't necessarily on the refugees to westernize immediately and make your life easier. Your local culture is changing, get out there and change with it. And remember any complaints about it not being safe, easy or fun are a two way street for both you and the refugees.




--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay]
    #22787018 -

Thats bullshit. I interact on an all most daily basis, with EU migrants and some non EU migrants who do assimilate with Western culture, through my work.

If these people want to come and live in the West, then they should be the one's, to make a concerted effort to try to integrate as best they can, with the wider community. The native populace should not be expected to change there way of life, to better suit the minority.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay]
    #22787096 -

airclay said:
and that's why you think multiculturalism is a fail, when in reality you're just socially lazy or inept or both




Sounds like you are blaming the West for not making lives easier for the refugees/immigrants.  This is completely ridiculous.  Bubbles is right, the onus is on the immigrants to adapt, not the natives.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do, so the saying goes.

Edited by WAN (01/16/16 06:37 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: WAN] * 1
    #22787188 -

man, I have no idea how so many posters here can't understand middle ground. It's all or nothing w these folks.


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay]
    #22787220 -

airclay said:
man, I have no idea how so many posters here can't understand middle ground. It's all or nothing w these folks.



You don't think newcomers should try their best to adapt to their new countries?  What me and bubbles suggest is very reasonable.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay]
    #22787481 -

airclay said:
man, I have no idea how so many posters here can't understand middle ground. It's all or nothing w these folks.



Listen, I don't need to speak Spanish for the illegals inside of the US, they DO NEED to learn to speak English!!

If I move to Poland, I need to learn to speak Polish, I don't expect them to learn my language, culture, and religion.

This is such basic commonsense, why do you struggle with these simple concepts?

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #22787577 -

I think, as I said earlier, the world is getting smaller, and we have to find a way to make multiculturalism work. I agree with bubbles that mass and abrupt immigration events make assimilation more difficult.

Airclay says that native people need to make an equal effort to assimilate into the cultures that migrate to their country. I partly agree with this notion, but bubbles and Q are also right. I believe that we should make an effort to understand the culture of the immigrants, so we know how to interact with them. My gf's boss is from India, and in the part of India she is from, women openly tell each other that they are fat, or need to lose weight. It's not to be a cunt. That's just how they talk to each other. It's good to know that sort of thing before flipping out on an immigrant.

There has to be an effort on both sides of the equation, and as I said before, that is why mass immigration doesn't work. A significant portion of  society are always going to be as holes, and they will never take any steps to welcome strangers. A large portion of immigrants are asshole, and they won't take the steps necessary either. Mass immigration events allow them to build a safety blanket niche area in the country when they come, and it is easier than attempting to assimilate.

However, given enough time, I do believe those pockets of immigrants will dissolve. Another point that should be made is that mass immigration is a very bad idea during times of economic upheaval or uncertainty. People are quick to blame the migrants for their problems. Racial tensions are always exacerbated by economic stressors.

Just my 2 cents :wink:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22787636 -

I still disagree, when my Polish ancestors came to the US 100 years ago, I can assure you no one gave a shit about learning Polish culture or customs.

Do you know why the Poles quickly assimilated and then begin challenging the native population in short order?  Because they made every effort to do so, Polish language was not allowed to be spoken at home, they gave up their language in the process, this is called sacrifice.

They learned to interact with the native population, they didn't expect handouts and special exceptions like you guys are talking about, this is called the real world.

"People are quick to blame migrants for their problems"

Many times they are largely responsible for their problems (unemployment, low wages, high taxes, crime).

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: WAN]
    #22787681 -

WAN said:
Repertoire89 said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

This is because most employees today are paid FAR less than they're worth to a company.



Yup.

Personally I endorse a Total Asset Cap, at about 5 million dollars.




I like this idea of yours very much.  Can you go into greater details and tell us how it would work?



How something like this can be accomplished, I won't consider here.


I suppose this idea makes me a socialist.
Coercion is implied, but personally I don't care. The greed of the rich causes untold suffering and 5 million dollars is exorbitant.
Resources are finite and taking larger than one's share, takes out of the share of others.

The idea would mean all of one's assets are recorded, their finances kept track of. Including real estate, investments, cattle, gold and jewelry, etc. At the point where the value passes 5 million dollars, they must give something up to balance the ledger or have it confiscated (starting with investments, since there is less of a risk of taking something with sentimental value or actual utility).

Considering modern societies productivity, taxes could be much lower, and many civil services can be provided by those taxes.


We all know how resources are stratified, so I won't get into that.
One has to lie through their teeth to imagine it is otherwise.

And I do not agree with the idea that some jackass inheriting 100 million dollars, somehow deserves those resources more than anyone else.

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Repertoire89]
    #22787712 -

What makes me wonder is that cultures and genetics have evolved differently to different environments and societies.  Importing different cultures into an existing one can wipe out the original one.  Also if the new culture is not well adapted to the new environment, it's even more problems.    Some people are getting worried that too much multiculturalism and immigration is wiping out western society and enlightenment ideals.  It all benefits the Democrats hold on power because they buy loyal immigrant voters with free accommodations and services.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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