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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: Shroomin Capote]
    #20603556 -

Shroomin Capote said:
gravity is a theory too.  theories are just hypotheses that can be tested and repeated pretty much.  the word theory doesn't mean its fact or fiction, rather that the idea can be tested


There is a differnce between the standard definition of a theory and a scientific theory. Plus anyone that truly believes gravity is not fact is probably lost. Without it we would not stand on this Earth, let alone orbit the sun, or keep the satellites that aid us with everyday life in order.

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20603563 -

zappaisgod said:
Shroomin Capote said:
gravity is a theory too.  theories are just hypotheses that can be tested and repeated pretty much.  the word theory doesn't mean its fact or fiction, rather that the idea can be tested


Gravity is a fact.  There is no current theory to explain it.


Thank you Zappa! But I still disagree that natural selection is a scientific theory. What is your rationale?

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: Shroomin Capote]
    #20603573 -

not even gonna bother watching that. It's bullshit too

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20603579 -

zappaisgod said:
Shroomin Capote said:
gravity is a theory too.  theories are just hypotheses that can be tested and repeated pretty much.  the word theory doesn't mean its fact or fiction, rather that the idea can be tested


Gravity is a fact.  There is no current theory to explain it.


youre right :facepalm:  rather there are multiple theories that try to explain it


--------------------
:leaf::leaf:

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: Gorlax]
    #20603589 -

Gorlax said:
not even gonna bother watching that. It's bullshit too


is there a lack of humor going around this place or something?


--------------------
:leaf::leaf:

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #20603615 -

mtlmike90 said:
zappaisgod said:
Shroomin Capote said:
gravity is a theory too.  theories are just hypotheses that can be tested and repeated pretty much.  the word theory doesn't mean its fact or fiction, rather that the idea can be tested


Gravity is a fact.  There is no current theory to explain it.


Thank you Zappa! But I still disagree that natural selection is a scientific theory. What is your rationale?


I think that the theory of natural selection is generally presupposing a forcing.  A force that drives life towards a niche.  I rather think that evolution is more permissive than that.  Look at Australia.


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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #20603643 -

1.  I follow one of the major world religions and I believe in a metaphysical entity that I designate as "God," which I consider to have some, but not all, of the characteristics generally ascribed to that name.

2.  As close to a fact as we have in science.  There is legitimate debate about how evolution occurs, but that it occurs is an open-and-shut case.

3.  I consider this a false dichotomy, as it assumes that God does not act through natural processes.

4.  Depends on what you define as "creationism."  I certainly reject both young-earth creationism and intelligent design (despite popular belief, the two are far from identical).  However, theistic evolution of the kind described by Teilhard de Chardin is also sometimes considered a form of creationism, even though it is perfectly consistent with evolutionary science.  My answer would also depend on what you mean by "science."


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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #20603661 -

mtlmike90 said:
PatrickKn said:
mtlmike90 said:
I disagree there is a difference between science and creationism. Just like you said science is a process to figure things out through careful emprical evidence. Creationism is the exact opposite There is no need to figure anything out or learn something about our origins because the creator did it.


All I'm saying is that creationists might use the scientific method to arrive at conclusions that conform to their world view, as do many people for various reasons. If a is surely a, and b is surely b, but c isn't a factor in the study whatsoever, then people with a creationist world view can point to c as "a creator" to justify a being a, and b being b.


Yes true... but the most forgotten part of the scientific method that is not completely explicitly stated is REPRODUCIBILITY. In order for your obervations and data to be verified you must be able to reproduce the experiment several times before you can draw a conclusion. You can't do that with creationism because first of all there is nothing to test. All creationism and religion is, is a hypohesis and jump to conclusions


I just want to make it clear that I am not defending purely biblical creationists here. With that said, I know all about reproducibility. All I'm saying is that there are ways to make a study (with reproducible results at that) and come to a conclusion that isn't necessarily one of pure truth. People's particular semantics will always get mixed up in the debate.

If we take my semantics of choice here for example, then god = the universe. And the universe is full of atoms that have the potential to congregate into the various conditions of life. We are essentially created by the universe in that sense. My semantics on the very word 'creator' and 'god' have now confirmed creationism according to my world view that (variable c): we are a product of the universe.

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20603664 -

zappaisgod said:
mtlmike90 said:
zappaisgod said:
Shroomin Capote said:
gravity is a theory too.  theories are just hypotheses that can be tested and repeated pretty much.  the word theory doesn't mean its fact or fiction, rather that the idea can be tested


Gravity is a fact.  There is no current theory to explain it.


Thank you Zappa! But I still disagree that natural selection is a scientific theory. What is your rationale?


I think that the theory of natural selection is generally presupposing a forcing.  A force that drives life towards a niche.  I rather think that evolution is more permissive than that.  Look at Australia.


It's interesting you bring Australia up because that is a good example of natural selection. Although there are other "forces" that drive evolution, natural selection is one of the biggies.

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: Silversoul]
    #20603668 -

Silversoul said:
3.  I consider this a false dichotomy, as it assumes that God does not act through natural processes.




:baaaam:


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:leaf::leaf:

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #20603690 -

My definition of creationism is the belief that a a creator or god or whatever you want to call it was responsible for creating all life on earth. This isnt specific to any religion or a God, I guess just some kind of being.

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: Shroomin Capote]
    #20603704 -


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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: Silversoul]
    #20603710 -

Creationism is a theory, and the big bang...is a theory. A theory is an unproven hypothesis. There are some thing in the universe that I think humans will never fully understand. We cannot fathom infinity, the fact that time has always been, and will never end. We cannot fathom the fact that the universe has no beginning or ending. Everything we know and understand in this world has a beginning and an end. This world was created at some point, and eventually will end. One fact that is undeniable is that matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed into a different form of matter. So, if this is the case, where did all the matter in the universe come from to create what we know now as "the universe"? I think its important for people to keep an open mind. When you close your mind to certain ideas, you limit yourself. Some people refuse to even acknowledge the fact that a god or high power may exist. You are limiting yourself! I cannot prove that a higher power exists, and I am not a religious person. I do not go to any church. But after spending many nights looking at the sky and pondering the universe, I believe that there is no way that all this is just random and just came out of nowhere. Evolution? Sure, no one can intelligently argue natural selection. But heres what really gets me. No one can prove a God exists.....but no one can prove a God doesnt exist either :wink:


--------------------
:sunny:“Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant.” -Hunter S. Thompson

“One of life's quiet excitements is to stand somewhat apart from yourself and watch yourself softly becoming the author of something beautiful even if it is only a floating ash.”  -Norman Maclean:sunny:

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: bendychicken]
    #20603725 -

bendychicken said:



Yes! Tim Minchin is one smart dude and seriously what is up with the USA?

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: slowgrowloph]
    #20603745 -

slowgrowloph said:
I believe that there is no way that all this is just random and just came out of nowhere.

Evolution? Sure, no one can intelligently argue natural selection.

No one can prove a God exists.....


Is that to say it came from somewhere? Where did that thing it came from come from? Not saying you're wrong, just food for thought. I think it's possible that it came from nowhere, nothing.

Intelligently, natural selection can be argued, in real time, with living specimens in a controlled environment. Put two types of plants into a controlled environment, one with genes that are repellent to weed killer, and one with genes that are not repellent to the weed killer. One plant will survive time after time due to it's selective traits to survive in a given environment.

Define god.

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: PatrickKn]
    #20603756 -

I accidentally voted for Creationism! NOOOOO


--------------------

"I don't give two splats of an old negro junkie's vomit for your politico-philosophical treatises, kiddies. I like noise. I like big-ass vicious noise that makes my head spin. I wanna feel it whipping through me like a fucking jolt. We're so dilapidated and crushed by our pathetic existence we need it like a fix." -Steve Albini

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: slowgrowloph] * 1
    #20603778 -

slowgrowloph said:
Creationism is a theory, and the big bang...is a theory. A theory is an unproven hypothesis. There are some thing in the universe that I think humans will never fully understand. We cannot fathom infinity, the fact that time has always been, and will never end. We cannot fathom the fact that the universe has no beginning or ending. Everything we know and understand in this world has a beginning and an end. This world was created at some point, and eventually will end. One fact that is undeniable is that matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed into a different form of matter. So, if this is the case, where did all the matter in the universe come from to create what we know now as "the universe"? I think its important for people to keep an open mind. When you close your mind to certain ideas, you limit yourself. Some people refuse to even acknowledge the fact that a god or high power may exist. You are limiting yourself! I cannot prove that a higher power exists, and I am not a religious person. I do not go to any church. But after spending many nights looking at the sky and pondering the universe, I believe that there is no way that all this is just random and just came out of nowhere. Evolution? Sure, no one can intelligently argue natural selection. But heres what really gets me. No one can prove a God exists.....but no one can prove a God doesnt exist either :wink:


"no one can prove a God doesnt exist"

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. The claim is that a God exists, therefore proof must be provided for that claim.

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: qman]
    #20603795 -

qman said:
slowgrowloph said:
Creationism is a theory, and the big bang...is a theory. A theory is an unproven hypothesis. There are some thing in the universe that I think humans will never fully understand. We cannot fathom infinity, the fact that time has always been, and will never end. We cannot fathom the fact that the universe has no beginning or ending. Everything we know and understand in this world has a beginning and an end. This world was created at some point, and eventually will end. One fact that is undeniable is that matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed into a different form of matter. So, if this is the case, where did all the matter in the universe come from to create what we know now as "the universe"? I think its important for people to keep an open mind. When you close your mind to certain ideas, you limit yourself. Some people refuse to even acknowledge the fact that a god or high power may exist. You are limiting yourself! I cannot prove that a higher power exists, and I am not a religious person. I do not go to any church. But after spending many nights looking at the sky and pondering the universe, I believe that there is no way that all this is just random and just came out of nowhere. Evolution? Sure, no one can intelligently argue natural selection. But heres what really gets me. No one can prove a God exists.....but no one can prove a God doesnt exist either :wink:


"no one can prove a God doesnt exist"

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. The claim is that a God exists, therefore proof must be provided for that claim.


Sometimes I wonder if telling people this will ever get to anyones head.


--------------------

"I don't give two splats of an old negro junkie's vomit for your politico-philosophical treatises, kiddies. I like noise. I like big-ass vicious noise that makes my head spin. I wanna feel it whipping through me like a fucking jolt. We're so dilapidated and crushed by our pathetic existence we need it like a fix." -Steve Albini

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: PatrickKn]
    #20603804 -

PatrickKn said:
slowgrowloph said:
I believe that there is no way that all this is just random and just came out of nowhere.

Evolution? Sure, no one can intelligently argue natural selection.

No one can prove a God exists.....


Is that to say it came from somewhere? Where did that thing it came from come from? Not saying you're wrong, just food for thought. I think it's possible that it came from nowhere, nothing.

Intelligently, natural selection can be argued, in real time, with living specimens in a controlled environment. Put two types of plants into a controlled environment, one with genes that are repellent to weed killer, and one with genes that are not repellent to the weed killer. One plant will survive time after time due to it's selective traits to survive in a given environment.

Define god.


I was saying no one can argue against natural selection. I believe in it, it seem to prove itself like the example you gave. Survival of the fittest! But like I said earlier, some things I dont think we will ever understand. But, if everything we know and understand came from something else, how could it all come from nothing????? Not saying your wrong either, just food for though :wink:


--------------------
:sunny:“Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant.” -Hunter S. Thompson

“One of life's quiet excitements is to stand somewhat apart from yourself and watch yourself softly becoming the author of something beautiful even if it is only a floating ash.”  -Norman Maclean:sunny:

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Re: The Ultimate Science vs. Creationism Debate [Re: slowgrowloph]
    #20603810 -

slowgrowloph said:
Creationism is a theory, and the big bang...is a theory. A theory is an unproven hypothesis. There are some thing in the universe that I think humans will never fully understand. We cannot fathom infinity, the fact that time has always been, and will never end. We cannot fathom the fact that the universe has no beginning or ending. Everything we know and understand in this world has a beginning and an end. This world was created at some point, and eventually will end. One fact that is undeniable is that matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed into a different form of matter. So, if this is the case, where did all the matter in the universe come from to create what we know now as "the universe"? I think its important for people to keep an open mind. When you close your mind to certain ideas, you limit yourself. Some people refuse to even acknowledge the fact that a god or high power may exist. You are limiting yourself! I cannot prove that a higher power exists, and I am not a religious person. I do not go to any church. But after spending many nights looking at the sky and pondering the universe, I believe that there is no way that all this is just random and just came out of nowhere. Evolution? Sure, no one can intelligently argue natural selection. But heres what really gets me. No one can prove a God exists.....but no one can prove a God doesnt exist either :wink:


Once again, there is a difference between the colloquial theory spoken by layman and a scientific theory. Creationism is a theory solely based on a hypothesis that cannot be tested, reproduced, and does not provide data that leads to conclusions. Creationists just have a hypothesis that is pretty much a conclusion since they ommited the other steps of the scientifc method.

A scientific theory is one derived from multiple experiments and observations that can be reproduced to form a conclusion that may differ from the original hypothesis.

We have the germ theory, that's a scientific theory but yet people go crazy buying antibiotics and sanitizing cleaners to prevent illness. How about all those yearly flu shots? We have the theory of gravity, go ahead and jump and see if you come back down. There's the theory of electromagnetism, if you don't believe in this one go ahead and turn of the lights ur using right now. While your at it forget about using the computer or your cellphone or the internet. How about the atomic theory? Ohh don't even get me started with this one. The list goes on and on brother!

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