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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19643612 -

redgreenvines said:
gardeners are not reapers,
they are cultivators

both of those manipulative quotations promise escalations of rank and easy bounty,
on the other hand,
a gardener takes care of the land and the plants... this is much more about wisdom and cultivation of sustainable habits.



God is the gardener and we are his laborers. No need to take things out of context :wink:
But we are called to be caretakers and caregivers, stewards and shepherds after the manner of Christ. Christianity teaches wisdom. The modern "church" is what corrupts it.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate]
    #19643711 -

as much of a gardener that god may be, (ok poetry-corner now, let the remaining undisturbed rainforest be an example of gaia at her best)

people need to be responsible for their own mess.

we as people (with no concern of any role attributed to other beings) have to take care of our world sustainably and responsibly.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19643734 -

redgreenvines said:
as much of a gardener that god may be, (ok poetry-corner now, let the remaining undisturbed rainforest be an example of gaia at her best)

people need to be responsible for their own mess.

we as people (with no concern of any role attributed to other beings) have to take care of our world sustainably and responsibly.



God also planted that rainforest. Nothing that you or I know would exist without him, and he is far greater than us. If you've done DMT, you know just how little our brains are capable of grasping about the greater realities. Also, the Gardener metaphor has more to do with human beings than the environment. You can find a lot of examples about trees representing nations and growing seeds representing believers.

People ARE responsible for their messes, according to the Old Testament Law. Paul's argument is that Christ fulfilled the law and makes us righteous through faith. We no longer need to be bound by the law because we do not live under it except by our own choosing. To live in faith is to be redeemed in faith; to live in the Law is to be judged according to it.

I agree. We absolutely should show concern for our environment. I was never against you on that point.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate]
    #19643799 -

you keep that shit up and I'm a putting you on ignore with absols


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19643815 -

redgreenvines said:
you keep that shit up and I'm a putting you on ignore with absols



And you mean what thing I said?

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate] * 1
    #19643966 -

Auto-Summary
The author of this post presents a critique of a fellow Christian who is accused of being dogmatic and dismissive of intellectual inquiry. The author argues that this individual is more of a "Paulist" than a true follower of Christ, as they seem to prioritize Paul's teachings over the principles of Christianity itself. The author points out that Paul's writings contain contradictions, particularly in his views on women and gender roles, and suggests that his teachings on vicarious sacrifice are flawed. They also question the author's claim to always be right and never lie, and instead urge them to engage in a more nuanced and critical examination of scripture, including the study of biblical hermeneutics and the works of scholars like John Shelby Spong and Bart Ehrman. The author encourages the reader to investigate their own faith and to separate it from the myths and dogma that have been imposed upon it. They assert that faith can be firm despite the dismantling of myths and myths, and that it is through critical inquiry that one can truly understand the teachings of Christ.

"Vote for me because I never lie, and I'm always right. George Leroy Tirebiter." - 'Don't Crush That Dwarf Hand Me The Pliers,' Firesign Theatre

"...if you had even the slightest notions about my motives for using psychedelics or the things I have seen and learned, then you would see that you are slowly but surely digging yourself a very neat, very pretty, well-worded intellectual grave."  This is called hubris, it is ego-inflation. Your motives for using psychedelics, if they are in the service of 'Binah,' Understanding of a transcendental sort, is the same motives many of us act by. Specialness is indicative of hubris. In extreme cases, it can become a delusion of grandeur (which BE HERE NOW warns us against, so be careful out there).

Paul was wrong about the End Times, moreover, several of the Pauline works are pseudo-Pauline works, written in his name by another author, (a common practice for those seeking authority), unless he had a Dissociative Disorder (formerly, Multiple Personality Disorder). Paul plainly complained of "a thorn in my side," which has been variously interpreted. One psycho-historian believe that Paul was fighting homosexual tendencies, which may or may not be behind some of his obvious misogyny. Or, his dismissal of women might be cultural. He preferred men not to marry either because he wrongly believed the Apocalypse was immanent, or he just had issues with women, or both. It is important to profile the authors of important historical writings before you change your life based on one man's interpretation of ideas prevalent in his day. Paul was a participant in murder (the stoning of Stephen), and then had a religious conversion. This is a classic case of certain psychological compensations that occur when a suppressed or repressed content erupts from the unconscious in a blindingly powerful way.

I don't know if you realize these 'scholarly' facts, because like most other 'Bible-believing Christians,' you keep leading your communications with an attack on intellectual abilities and academia. You want to simply follow, not "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" - Philippians 2:12. I understand the desirable theological notion of 'assurance,' which is part of 'sanctification' which surpasses 'justification.' But wanting to settle on superficial readings of scripture is milk, not the meat of the matter, to use yet another biblical metaphor. That's right, one needs to be somewhat versed in biblical hermeneutics in order to conduct an intelligent discussion of biblical material. Paulis the 'architect's mainstream Christianity. I see you more as a Paulist than as a 'Christ,' which, is the goal of "being in Christ," not 'being in Paul.

Paul is flawed. He is flawed in his 'vicarious sacrifice' theology, which simply transfers the Hebrew mythos from the Pascal Lamb, to a human sacrificial victim. In one place Paul upholds the egalitarian nature of "being in Christ," e.g., "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" - Galatians 3:28. In other places, women are subservient to men, “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” - 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. BTW, both of these are considered to be writings of the same author, not even a Pseudo-Pauline writing, but he is clearly contradictory in his attitude toward the gender-transcending being hood of one who is "in Christ." If you have not studied the blatant contradictions in these letters (after all, Paul's letters are just LETTERS to new churches), then you've got your work cut out for you in demythologizing and deconstruction. You accuse me of speaking falsely, which makes you an accuser. That is not your job, and I am not speaking falsely. The ancient mythic characters you name, (I particularly like the imagery of Elijah's ascent to heaven in a flaming chariot. Visionary state or historical event? If visionary, you are Gnostic, if you think this an historical event, I will not resort to personalisms here).

"The fruits of the Spirit of God are Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control. Go and live out those things before you talk of your wisdom."  It is not ME who has proclaimed myself as being in possession of wisdom, it is you who have, howsoever grudgingly, perceived it in my communications and named it in your own sentence. As for living out virtues of the spirit, I do not think there are people who know me in person, or who are discerning enough to distill personality qualities from my writings who would deny that I embody these virtues. Lastly, those scribal insertions that affirm that anyone who teaches another gospel, or (against certain Gnostics in John) or who 'deny that jesus has come in the flesh' (1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7), are just that - later scribal insertions, NOT part of the original Greek documents. Don't believe me, but read some biblical scholars: John Shelby Spong, Marcus Borg, Bart Ehrman, for example. Read Gnostic material, not just their ancient detractors like Irenaeus. Perhaps you are correct in not wanting to 'argue.' I'm trying to instruct, but you're not having it. As I suggested, beliefs are fragile, faith is firm. With faith, investigate what you believe. Deconstruct it and see who, how, where, why, and when it was written the way it was. If you are afraid it will destroy your faith, your faith wasn't true to begin with. I still have faith even after the dismantling of the myths. :bye:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (03/03/14 04:42 PM)

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19643983 -

I cannot argue with a man who uses Bible verses to refute the Bible. Arguing with you further will only lead me to frustration and you to further certainty of your pseudo-intellectual delusions, and I don't wish to sin by causing either of these things. Let us agree to disagree and end this line of discussion here.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate]
    #19644967 -

First I am accused of being too intellectual, and then I am accused of being pseudo-intellectual. You have accused me of, but are not qualified to diagnose anyone as being delusional, and you are resorting to personalism by doing so, which is erroneous. I can, with professional confidence, say that you are projecting a notion of being delusional onto me. (Watch out for ban-happy moderators). You are confused. I am not being 'pseudo' (not genuine) if I am documenting my arguments. I took a MTS degree from the theological seminary of Drew University in 1978, and I have now had 36 additional years of reading and study, not to mention personal dialogues or courses with theologians John Shelby Spong, Thomas C. Oden, and D.G. Leahy (who has continued the work of Thomas J.J. Altizer, and his "Death of God" theology) and others.  I managed to receive respect from all of them, but It is doubtful that you appreciate any of the current biblical scholars I named earlier as well as these. No doubt you remain unfamiliar with, and unaware of the importance of the Nag Hammadi library to the origin of Christianity, before the censors took control of the movement and perverted it to political agendas. Neither do you fathom my perspective of Christianity, which is spiritual 'meat,' not 'milk,' not the comforting pablum of myth mistakenly interpreted as literal history. That, my friend is the nature of delusion, make no mistake about it.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (03/03/14 06:33 PM)

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19645451 -

I believe in God and in love. That is my faith. I have no patience for your "theology." If you had even the slightest scriptural credibility, then perhaps I would actually entertain your (shall I say it?) heresies. But obviously, you consider it ignorance when a person of faith stands by the holy book of their religion. You are taking a spiritual faith and making it a work of human "intellect," and for this I have neither the time nor the words to explain just how wrong it is.

Give Mere Christianity a read. If religion were meant for geniuses and scholars alone, then Jesus would not have called fishermen and tax collectors. Your Gnosticism is just a polite way of saying that just because you're intelligent, you think yourself more worthy of God than lesser mortals. Thank goodness you have your insight to bestow on all of us; what would we do with tangible faith?

Quote:
Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.



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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate]
    #19645916 -

Advocate said:
My goodness, but don't you love long posts and using as many words as possible to make your arguments. I'm sure that tactic is great for keeping people from adequately responding. Why do't you actually prove to me that the Bible is wrong, not that is has implications which you find to be unpleasant?

Because I ASSURE you there is less than no proof for your lofty ideas about universal spiritual consciousness or whatever idea you happen to be teaching at any given moment. There is a reason why almost no serious religious thinkers are gnostics. There is simply no foundation for the ideas you hold.



Ugh.  If you are submitting to us the idea that the Bible is right, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that it is right, not on us to prove that it is wrong.  :thumbdown:

Advocate said:
I cannot argue with a man who uses Bible verses to refute the Bible.



:rofl:

Don't you realize that the Bible contradicts itself more times than anyone in this thread has contradicted it so far?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: deCypher]
    #19645963 -

Maybe so. But the debate with Markos wasn't exactly about that.

The point of my original post was that Kant, a Christian, basically commits a hypocrisy in his philosophy because he claims to be a Christian but does not teach in accordance with Christian principles.

The Bible can speak for itself as far as I am concerned. It's a long-lived compilation of history, poetry, letters, and teaching. Its accounts about the ancient world line up nicely with secular history. Even its commentary on Cyrus the Great has interest for historians.

What people like to forget is that the Bible is no less a valid historical text than Hammurabi's Code or the teachings of Lao Tzu. I believe you would need to try quite hard to make a compelling case for any serious flaws within it.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate]
    #19645984 -

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.


The angels in heaven ought to get their shit in order so they're not putting out conflicting information.

And I thought God was love and forgiveness.  Who knew the Bible had anything in it not out of sympathy and kindness?  Frankly I'm shocked.  :shrug:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19646010 -

DividedQuantum said:
Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.


The angels in heaven ought to get their shit in order so they're not putting out conflicting information.

And I thought God was love and forgiveness.  Who knew the Bible had anything in it not out of sympathy and kindness?  Frankly I'm shocked.  :shrug:



The word "exaggeration" comes to mind. Paul was making the point that not even an angel could get away with corrupting the gospel.

"Love and forgiveness" are not synonyms for apathetically letting people do whatever they please without regard. No loving parents refuse to discipline their children.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate]
    #19646037 -

So, you are claiming the Bible has zero contradictions?

I could refer you to lists of hundreds upon hundreds of the aforementioned, but I'm sure you can Google them for yourself.  I'd just like to take the opportunity to present that according to the Bible, the value of Pi is 3:

From 1 Kings 7:23
Quote:
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.



and from 2 Chronicles 4:2
Quote:
Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.



The Bible, therefore, although supposedly divinely inspired and incapable of containing error, nonetheless contains a mathematical fallacy. Since the circumference of a circle is Pi times its diameter, a circular sea could only be ten cubits across and thirty cubits around if Pi = 30 cubits ÷ 10 cubits = 3, rather than the true value 3.1415926535....

I could go on to mention the more famous juxtaposition of the quotes about Jesus where on the one hand the Bible claims that he has nothing to do with peace, and on the other that he's all about it: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." as compared to "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Or the classic complement of the quotes where God is recognized to be the source of all evil, and at the same time only the source of good: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." vs. "And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

I could go on, and on, and on.... but my guess is that you will twist these words into some semblance of agreement with each other because your belief is based more on irrational faith than on any empirical or rational justification.  :sad:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate]
    #19646049 -

So... for subscribing to false gospels is the result...forgiveness or damnation?  And what are the varying degrees on this punishment/forgiveness spectrum?  I mean... is there a hell and God gets real angry sometimes, or is God more into the new testament and loves and forgives everybody?

I admit I've always been fuzzy on this.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: deCypher]
    #19646080 -

deCypher said:
So, you are claiming the Bible has zero contradictions?

I could refer you to lists of hundreds upon hundreds of the aforementioned, but I'm sure you can Google them for yourself.  I'd just like to take the opportunity to present that according to the Bible, the value of Pi is 3:

From 1 Kings 7:23
Quote:
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.



and from 2 Chronicles 4:2
Quote:
Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.



The Bible, therefore, although supposedly divinely inspired and incapable of containing error, nonetheless contains a mathematical fallacy. Since the circumference of a circle is Pi times its diameter, a circular sea could only be ten cubits across and thirty cubits around if Pi = 30 cubits ÷ 10 cubits = 3, rather than the true value 3.1415926535....

I could go on to mention the more famous juxtaposition of the quotes about Jesus where on the one hand the Bible claims that he has nothing to do with peace, and on the other that he's all about it: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." as compared to "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Or the classic complement of the quotes where God is recognized to be the source of all evil, and at the same time only the source of good: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." vs. "And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

I could go on, and on, and on.... but my guess is that you will twist these words into some semblance of agreement with each other because your belief is based more on irrational faith than on any empirical or rational justification.  :sad:



The Bible is written by humans, but also FOR humans. I don't think God finds it necessary to go into decimal places when such a concept might not even have been developed in Biblical times. The same goes for evolution, or rather, why it is omitted. I would not content that God always speaks in terms of literal facts if doing so would be contrary to conveying his message.

You take Jesus' quotes out of context. In the one case, he is saying how he will be a force against the evil and false teachings of the world, while in the other he speaks about the end of the world when God will make an everlasting peace. Your "juxtaposition" is no more valid than if you were to simply make up quotes, because words taken out of context are meaningless.

I don't recall God ever saying he created evil. Unless by that you mean he created free will, from which evil is perfectly capable of coming. Also, you should understand that I don't actually contend that Jesus IS God the way most Christians do, only that he was a perfect man who was God's son and whose purpose in living was to glorify God alone, not himself. Or you could argue that he never explicitly says that he isn't good, just that God alone is good, leaving the possibility open that he is God and therefore is good.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate]
    #19646092 -

Isaiah 45:7
Quote:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."



Since you said you couldn't recall where God said he created evil.  Trust me, it's there.  :wink:

Will respond to the rest of your post later.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19646099 -

DividedQuantum said:
So... for subscribing to false gospels is the result...forgiveness or damnation?  And what are the varying degrees on this punishment/forgiveness spectrum?  I mean... is there a hell and God gets real angry sometimes, or is God more into the new testament and loves and forgives everybody?

I admit I've always been fuzzy on this.



The passage we were discussing refers to people who teach false gospels, not people who are taken in by them. Again we see words being taken out of context.

Anything can be forgiven, save for the one Unforgivable Sin that is mentioned. Some things, which we call sin, rightfully deserve punishment. You can't murder and expect to escape punishment for it. But the whole point of Christ's death was that he took all of the punishment that sins would have deserved.

Anyone who repents will be forgiven. Anyone who hold onto evil will not be forgiven, but only because they do not wish to be forgiven. Why does that strike you as complicated?

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: deCypher]
    #19646114 -

deCypher said:
Isaiah 45:7
Quote:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."



Since you said you couldn't recall where God said he created evil.  Trust me, it's there.  :wink:

Will respond to the rest of your post later.



The word used for "evil" in this passage is a mistranslation. The KJV is rife with these, and that is why we no longer use it. The word "rah," here given as "evil," can also mean "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble."

The NIV says: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Any number of theologians will be happy to explain to you why it is necessary that pain should exist. C.S. Lewis wrote an entire book solely on that subject.

Source: http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

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Re: Kant is Wrong...But So Close [Re: Advocate] * 1
    #19646119 -

I read Mere Christianity, the Perelandra trilogy, and other works by C.S. Lewis, long ago. Very entertaining and at times insightful. As to Gnostic religion, it is the logical alternative for those entheogenic-using individuals who are drawn to the Christian mythos, but who have seen through the theologies, and the puerilities of doctrinal statements which end up being jettisoned after centuries, because beliefs are compounded of thoughts, and anything that can be compounded can equally be dissolved by overwhelming Experience or simple logic. Incidentally, I do not, contrary to your further accusatory tone, entertain any theological system. I am convinced only one one thing - The Eternal Now, as theologian Paul Tillich called it, or The Power of Now as modern mystic Eckhart Tolle calls it. This verity, the Ground of Being, is Known immediately, unmediated by sacramental-symbolic rituals, a "gratuitous grace" which comes as a tri-unity of Knower-Knowledge-Known. Discursive intellect has nothing to do with it. The only value of intellection in this regard is the skill in which the simple awareness of the Eternal Ground can be translated into words that beacon others to have the Experience, as in Hendrix's "Have you ever been Experienced?" (by a transcendental Other, and felt that you were under its Eye). It is not an epistemological knowledge, it is gnosis (like the Indian gyan/jnani). It is simple awareness. It does not require scholarly, discursive intelligence. It does not 'puff up' the ego (through complicated gnostic mythologies), it dissolves the ego in humility and awe, rendering the heart capable of agapé.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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