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Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai
    #17395545 -

I have been playing this with my cousin over the past few weeks. I've always been impressed by CA's Total war games ever since I played Total war Rome.

However, something that bothers me. Levy troops, half of which can't even afford shoes by the looks of things, they have their muzzle loading rifles, and yet, when getting into close combat, out they draw exquisitely smithed katanas.

All of them have katanas. Whilst in Europe, Africa, the Americas, Russia and the Indian subcontinent men made do with bayonets (or pikes) with swords being the preserve of cavalry, favouring longer curved sabres that were for cutting, not stabbing, even the lowliest peasant in the garrison has a bloody katana that takes weeks to manufacture from fold after fold of wrought iron, hammered into steel and honed to a keen cutting edge. Oh, and it's curved to, which is even harder to make.

I can't help but feel this is somewhat historically inaccurate. But I know very little about the internicine period between the events in shogun 2 and fall of the samurai. Maybe blacksmiths up and down the land were churning out katanas for 250 years in anticipation that they'd be used again.

I feel that's utter bollocks. Here's hoping the rome total realism team take on the challenge of making fall of the samurai historically accurate. I'm pretty sure that the Japanese with their martial history would not be adverse to sticking a bit of sharp steel ontop of their guns. Hell, i'm surprised they didn't fix bayonets to their cannons.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #17399781 -

Japan in 1850 had a population of about 30,000,000. why is that so hard to believe? Do you imagine Japan as many tiny villages? Even in 1600 they had cities with a million+ people in them.

Making 50,000 STANDARD-ISSUE swords in a short period wouldn't be much of an issue...

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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Sallisax]
    #17405657 -

I never thought of it that way. My guess was a rifle, despite the multiple moving parts and the need to drill in the grooves, is easier to make then a folded iron katana.

I was told that during the Pacific rim battles of WW2, soliders equipped with SMG's were told to target officers first, because officers would carry swords. During trench warfare, doesn't matter if you don't have much melee experience, if you got a sharp choppy sword you're more dangerous than most men.

I dunno what levy garrisons were equipped with back in the 1800's. I thought everyone was into bayonets.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #17407658 -

Whilst playing this, I've been thinking.

Whatever happened to knights in Europe? I remember there being a condemnation of crossbows by the then pope because it was unfair how a peasant with a crossbow could kill a knight who's entire life is warfare.

With the introduction of muskets and then further refined guns, knights, and platemail in general, seems to have faded away. Was this during the renaissance? Swordfighting never truely died out, but the local varieties of martial skills did die out. The martial traditions of Japan however are still recent in their history, so their style of martial arts remains and has been featured prominently in hollywood films.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #17410704 -

i believe they were few, not many people could be knights(armor/horse super expensive not to mention becoming a squire first, training to wear the armor, being funded by a lord etc...) armor and therefore knights faded out once the musket could penetrate the armor often, musket equipped infantry could be trained far faster and they didn't need any expensive armor, so knights died out then.

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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #17415471 -

You are completely right.


In video games and 2012, armor looks like this.


It is supposed to mimic armor that actually looked like this:


Video game/2012


Real life/thousands of years ago



I'm no historical expert but I hope I got my point across.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Synthe]
    #17420683 -

Synthe said:
You are completely right.


In video games and 2012, armor looks like this.


It is supposed to mimic armor that actually looked like this:


Video game/2012


Real life/thousands of years ago



I'm no historical expert but I hope I got my point across.



Don't get the comparison you're making with the armour, but if you look at those swords, the former is a sabre (with a curved edge for sweeping, cutting blows, usually from up on a horse) and the latter is a gladius, which is a short stabbing sword. They are used in different contexts.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #17433596 -

Dude TW games are full of inaccuracies and inconsistencies. Its a game.


What happened to the European Knight? They become outdated with the invention of gunpowder and were to expensive/hard to use, thats how pike and shot warfare came to be. Just like how the calvary man become outdated with the advent of machine guns and tanks.

I love TW games as well. The AI still blows and the game is way to easy to play the computer, which sucks, but I'm excited for the new rome.

Medieval 2 was my favorite god were the knights templar glorious in that game.

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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: elax420]
    #17435358 -

i must be retarded then, i couldnt beat the first level in napoleon.

shogun 2 was wicked fun tho. both rise and fall of the samurai.

god damnit i have SO many games i cant wait to have a computer just to make use of my evergrowing steam account.

gah.

especially total war. that shit is tight.


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: igwna]
    #17435438 -

igwna said:
i must be retarded then, i couldnt beat the first level in napoleon.

shogun 2 was wicked fun tho. both rise and fall of the samurai.

god damnit i have SO many games i cant wait to have a computer just to make use of my evergrowing steam account.

gah.

especially total war. that shit is tight.



Haha I don't think being good at these games has that much to do with intelligence.  Its pretty formulaic and once you get it you get it.

I don't really know what you are talking about when you say level?

Heres the TL;DR in advance
Defense
1 arty supremacy and protect it at all costs
2. maintain your front
3. use cav and shock troops sparingly
4. try and kill the general
Offense
blitzkrieg style (my fav but your army has to be set for it)
1.Kill enemy cav
2. engage and kill arty
3. kill pesky light inf with cav

A good strategy for napoleon though is when making your armies to have about 60% low cost infantry (not bottom of the barrell but not elite), think of them as your sponge. 2 or 3 good to great artillery pieces. Position them where they can cut down a majority of the enemies army while still being defended, or if arty isn't your forte use them as a trojan horse to kill the enemy calvary. the rest of your army should either be comprised of hussars or some other kind of effective light cav(i hate heavy cav in the gunpowder TW's), or gaurd troops. Think of them as your hammer/rock.

A huge part of this game is maneuvering and micromanaging. Don't leave yourself vulnerable. I like to open up with artillery on the General #1 Calvary#2 high ranking troops #3 forget about the enemy artillery unless you out gun them majorly. This is where you are going to want to utilize your skirmishers (best units in the game) Take pop shots at the infantry but dont leave them too unsupported or enemy cav will demolish them.  Im really calvary and artillery, and skirmisher and speed heavy by nature. Your first goal will be to gain calvary supremacy. once you gain that pull back, your frontlines should be engaging. if you still have any skirmishers focus them on a flank or soft spot same goes for artilery. Now you are going to want to gain total arty supremacy. Use cav depending on if its a single battle or campaign you can be more aggressive or less. Once you take out their artilery and calvary you should win easily.

You can really win however you like now. Personally i like to weaken the inf and charge them with my muskets then hammer them in the ass with my cav. This is where grenadiers and guards come in handy.

Sorry for my nerdiness i fucking love war games.

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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: elax420]
    #17435951 -

During R:TW, I figured out I didn't need to bother with more than a few artillery to break the gates, then just send in wardogs.

They don't tire
They don't break
They will overrun you.

Such fun! I missed them when playing Rome total realism, but it made up for it by being far more engaging. The gladius; when used in tight, disciplined ranks, is a formidable and flexible weapon.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #17439376 -

Ya Artillery is useless in rome and i dont use anything but cannons in the newer ones.

Dogs lol. Ive never seen anyone use them before. I would think spearman would rape dogs but i havent used them

In rome Spartans and preatorians are gods. Macedon is gamebreaking good.

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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: elax420]
    #17440749 -

well that's the thing, dogs can flank and overrun anything. That's why using artilliery you can break down the walls or gates.

Spears, espexially phalanx spear formations, are invulnerable in the front, but without support will be broken down.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #17476304 -

Visionary Tools said:
I never thought of it that way. My guess was a rifle, despite the multiple moving parts and the need to drill in the grooves, is easier to make then a folded iron katana.

I was told that during the Pacific rim battles of WW2, soliders equipped with SMG's were told to target officers first, because officers would carry swords. During trench warfare, doesn't matter if you don't have much melee experience, if you got a sharp choppy sword you're more dangerous than most men.

I dunno what levy garrisons were equipped with back in the 1800's. I thought everyone was into bayonets.




Wrong.  Swords can be made just like guns.  Masterwork swords take many months to create and were imbued with ki - a swordsmith's energy and life, creative essence.  Today we view that as largely foolishness but it was IMPOSSIBLE for masterwork swordsmen to churn out swords, the same way it'd be IMPOSSIBLE for a star quality artist to just "churn" out artworks.  They happen when, and as they happen.


Imperfect industrially made weapons would have flaws, imbalances, not be perfectly sharp, but they'd still sever your spinal column at the neck.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Humility]
    #17476310 -

Also I've been playing TW since Shogun 1 - their first game ever.  One of the few games I've ever bought in my entire life.


I can't wait until Steam releases a 50-75% off pack for every single TW ever released - winds up being like 40-80 bucks to purchase 10 TW games.  I've never paid for one and Creative Assembly really deserves my money.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Humility]
    #17477559 -

Humility said:
I can't wait until Steam releases a 50-75% off pack for every single TW ever released - winds up being like 40-80 bucks to purchase 10 TW games.  I've never paid for one and Creative Assembly really deserves my money.


:highfive:

Good guy greg

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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Humility]
    #17478331 -

Humility said:
Visionary Tools said:
I never thought of it that way. My guess was a rifle, despite the multiple moving parts and the need to drill in the grooves, is easier to make then a folded iron katana.

I was told that during the Pacific rim battles of WW2, soliders equipped with SMG's were told to target officers first, because officers would carry swords. During trench warfare, doesn't matter if you don't have much melee experience, if you got a sharp choppy sword you're more dangerous than most men.

I dunno what levy garrisons were equipped with back in the 1800's. I thought everyone was into bayonets.




Wrong.  Swords can be made just like guns.  Masterwork swords take many months to create and were imbued with ki - a swordsmith's energy and life, creative essence.  Today we view that as largely foolishness but it was IMPOSSIBLE for masterwork swordsmen to churn out swords, the same way it'd be IMPOSSIBLE for a star quality artist to just "churn" out artworks.  They happen when, and as they happen.


Imperfect industrially made weapons would have flaws, imbalances, not be perfectly sharp, but they'd still sever your spinal column at the neck.


Eh. fix bayonets AND KEEP FIRING!

CA have always played fast and loose with history (some units in Rome: Total war come to mind) and I still have my doubts over the issuance of swords to even the lowliest pesant. A rifle, yes, that makes sense (or even old flintlocks if no rifles are spare). Pikes to, because they were used up until the 1700's.


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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #17586768 -

Anyone here ever HOTSEAT medieval 2? Also played all the versions: love Empire A LOT...

If you want historical accuracy I suggest looking up mods for rome and medieval... There are vast expansions out there with a very dedicated fanbase. Sometimes even commletely overhauling the games.

Can't get enough of these games...

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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: Beanhead]
    #17586845 -

Same Empire was my least favorite of the series though

Cant wait for Rome 2

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Re: Total war Shogun 2 - Fall of the Samurai [Re: elax420]
    #17587338 -

Napoleon was my least favorite.  I played as the Maratha Confederate and really enjoyed it in Empire.



I have pirated all of the Total war games :frown:.  I know.  They release packs regularly though where it's like basically all the versions of the game for much cheaper than it would be otherwise, I think they usally ask 10-25-33% of the total price which usually winds up being 50-90 bucks which isn't bad at all considering it includes both of the new shoguns and all of the DLC packs for them.

Look out for that deal on Steam when it comes.


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General Interest > The Gaming Grotto
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