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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: Apostle]
    #16793335 -

Hologram said:
i wouldnt reccomend it.


Sorry. The brain said one thing, the fingers typed something else.

Fixed.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793343 -

bryguy said:
Haha I don't give a shit about my PO's arguments...


So you keep saying. I imagine the Judge will, when all is said and done.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793348 -

bryguy said:
Now everyone is just going in circles. The fact is that they haven't been able to objectively define "spice" and you can't make claims about what something really is before you have adequately defined it in the first place. If "marijuana-like" was an objective enough term then we would have federal blanket bans by now.



They don't need to define 'spice', it's just a nickname given to various products--you didn't get busted for having 'spice' in your system, you got busted for having 'synthetic cannabinoids' in your system.

Cannabinoids is a clearly understood and defined term (a chemical compound that activates the cannabinoid receptors), as is synthetic (produced chemically by humans), combine those and you have 'a chemical compound produced by humans that activates the cannabinoid receptors', this is not a colloquial term but an actual definition.

Are you truly unable to grasp the concept that synthetic cannabinoids, which cause similar effects on the brain as does cannabis proper, would be classified as a 'substitute for cannabis'? Are you denying that you were using it as such?

Your argument is one of semantics, and that is really no argument at all. Suggesting that 'substitute for cannabis' is referring to replicating the subjective state of a cannabis 'high' is ridiculous--it's not, it's referring to substances which cause similar effects in the receptors of the brain, substances which have a direct effect on the cannabinoid receptors.

"how is smoking spice any fundamentally different than huffing paint or getting high off windex?"
Because the first directly effects the cannabinoid receptors, while the latter do not.


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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16793359 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Prisoner#1 said:
I figure fuck it, you just need to tell the man to fuck right off, you'll use
what ever you want and they can suck your dick if they have a problem with it


Advice even Humility can get behind.



that's where I learned it


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793370 -

bryguy said:
Quote:
Your PO doesn't need good arguments.

Let us know how it works out for you. Then you can crow about your arguments.


Haha I don't give a shit about my PO's arguments...it's the judge that I will have to convince in a hearing. And I'm going to make sure it works pretty well because I'm going to be thoroughly discussing my plan with a lawyer to ensure that NO aspect of it can/will land me in jail. The absolute WORST thing that will happen is that I will have to get out of bed earlier than usual to go to a hearing and nothing will get changed.:shrug:




Remain humble,


dont spout about whats right or wrong. keep that shit to yourself.

Yes, we should be allowed to do drugs, all of them. yes its a fucked up system.

but by swimming against the current you give them the right to take your freedom.

remember,

HUMBLE AS A MUMBLE IN THE JUNGLE OF SHOUTS AND SCREAMS.

on paper, i been drug free for years. yall just think about that.


forget yer beliefs and prioritize your freedom. all systems can be worked but you must maintain the illlusion of obedience.

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16793378 -

Quote:
Did you fail a test?

are you violated?

im lazy, so help me out, what is the issue?


did you admit to smoking spice? did your PO bring up or mention that you cant smoke it specifically?



I'm going to help you out then but it would take too much time to go into FULL detail so this might give the people in this thread too much ammunition...basically before anyone reads THIS particular post and calls me stupid or something please go back and read the situation in further detail.

I failed a test for smoking spice but the test inadvertently covered unscheduled chems. Basically I admitted I knew it could be considered a "substitute for cannabis" because my PO implied the punishment would be worse if I tried fighting. And yes I am violated and was just sentenced to 2 days of community service.:shrug:

Quote:
Cannabinoids is a clearly understood and defined term (a chemical compound that activates the cannabinoid receptors), as is synthetic (produced chemically by humans), combine those and you have 'a chemical compound produced by humans that activates the cannabinoid receptors', this is not a colloquial term but an actual definition.


The fact is that police are being forced to return chemicals that could be defined as "synthetic cannabinoids" because the laws just aren't objective enough. Science itself only loosely groups these chems together, otherwise there would be plenty of ammunition for legislators to effectively ban all of it. They haven't been able to do so, so it simply isn't objective enough.


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Life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #16793379 -

shivas.wisdom said:
"how is smoking spice any fundamentally different than huffing paint or getting high off windex?"
Because the first directly effects the cannabinoid receptors, while the latter do not.



wouldnt matter, while paint isnt banned it's unlawful to use a product like
paint or windex inconsistent with the labeling, for instance if he smokes
something labeled as incense he could have a completely new charge which is
what I'd have done instead of trying to violate him


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793385 -

Quote:
all systems can be worked but you must maintain the illlusion of obedience


Sometimes you need to go outside the boundaries so that legal precedents can be set.

Once again, I'm not expecting to change anything but as long as I talk to a good lawyer beforehand I'm not really risking anything either.


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Life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793397 -

bryguy said:
The fact is that police are being forced to return chemicals that could be defined as "synthetic cannabinoids" because the laws just aren't objective enough.



no they aren and they dont need to be, the one you cited from the news article
was a hole in the law requiring a neighboring state or the feds to also have
outlawed it... far from being 'un objective'. the cops can confiscate it under
a host of laws including the federal analog act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analog_Act

for instance, MXE is similar to PCP and Ketamine so it's illegal by the
chemical structure, the compounds in spice are illegal by that and by actions


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793403 -

Quote:
wouldnt matter, while paint isnt banned it's unlawful to use a product like
paint or windex inconsistent with the labeling, for instance if he smokes
something labeled as incense he could have a completely new charge which is
what I'd have done instead of trying to violate him


I know this is the case with paint, but I'm not sure how well the argument that they are charging you because of the fact that spice says "not for human consumption" on it would even work. I haven't heard of anyone being charged for this specifically so I don't think it's ever happened...and if they could they DEFINITELY would have by now. If you know of a case like this where they've charged someone for smoking spice EXPRESSLY because it was used inconsistent with its labeling please let me know.


--------------------
Life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793431 -

IF you have money out the ass, then fight it.


Also, i'm on yer side here dude, try and build a good relationship with your PO. they can put in reccomendations,once violated, which the judge will usually follow.


i actually think you may have a case  but i certainly wouldnt invest the money and effort to fight two days community service.

morally, i feel for you, but you have to learn to pick your battles.

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #16793443 -

Prisoner#1 said:
bryguy said:
The fact is that police are being forced to return chemicals that could be defined as "synthetic cannabinoids" because the laws just aren't objective enough.



no they aren and they dont need to be, the one you cited from the news article
was a hole in the law requiring a neighboring state or the feds to also have
outlawed it... far from being 'un objective'. the cops can confiscate it under
a host of laws including the federal analog act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analog_Act

for instance, MXE is similar to PCP and Ketamine so it's illegal by the
chemical structure, the compounds in spice are illegal by that and by actions


The way I read it was that they had to be returned specifically because the confiscated chemicals were not on the banned substance list yet:
Quote:
Marion County Crime Lab tests showed the chemicals inside the packets were not on the state's "banned" list. Now, Lawrence Police said, they have no choice but to give them back to the store.


They have no power over anything not specifically stated as banned so they have to give all of it back.:lol:


--------------------
Life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793452 -

bryguy said:
Quote:
wouldnt matter, while paint isnt banned it's unlawful to use a product like
paint or windex inconsistent with the labeling, for instance if he smokes
something labeled as incense he could have a completely new charge which is
what I'd have done instead of trying to violate him


I know this is the case with paint, but I'm not sure how well the argument that they are charging you because of the fact that spice says "not for human consumption" on it would even work. I haven't heard of anyone being charged for this specifically so I don't think it's ever happened...and if they could they DEFINITELY would have by now. If you know of a case like this where they've charged someone for smoking spice EXPRESSLY because it was used inconsistent with its labeling please let me know.



it doesnt matter if someone has been charged, it doesnt mean it isnt illegal
since it's clearly defined in federal labeling laws


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793459 -

bryguy said:
Quote:
wouldnt matter, while paint isnt banned it's unlawful to use a product like
paint or windex inconsistent with the labeling, for instance if he smokes
something labeled as incense he could have a completely new charge which is
what I'd have done instead of trying to violate him


I know this is the case with paint, but I'm not sure how well the argument that they are charging you because of the fact that spice says "not for human consumption" on it would even work. I haven't heard of anyone being charged for this specifically so I don't think it's ever happened...and if they could they DEFINITELY would have by now. If you know of a case like this where they've charged someone for smoking spice EXPRESSLY because it was used inconsistent with its labeling please let me know.


its a gray area and they know it.


what they will ultimately have to prove is not the drugs legality but whether or not you used it intentionally as a weed substitute.(or to get high in general as that is not allowed on probation)

now, unless your P.O. recorded your admission, i'd say they have their work cut out for them.

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #16793465 -

Quote:
it doesnt matter if someone has been charged, it doesnt mean it isnt illegal
since it's clearly defined in federal labeling laws


Right but what I am arguing is that it doesn't seem like they've ever been able to build a case on that premise otherwise they would have probably been all over it. Maybe you're right and I will be the VERY first, but I highly doubt that.


--------------------
Life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: Apostle]
    #16793469 -

The real question is, do you want to get into a legal battle over two days comm service?



or are the consequences worse than that?

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: Apostle] * 1
    #16793477 -

Hologram said:
i'd say they have their work cut out for them.


Not even a little.

The PO will say one thing, OP will say another.

OP will lose.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793478 -

Quote:
now, unless your P.O. recorded your admission, i'd say they have their work cut out for them.


I thought she was considered an "officer of the court" and that her testimony was given more weight than mine? Also the package stated "potpouri" on it...but with my Tea Charade I will ensure there is nothing even slightly resembling this.
:bigyesnod:


--------------------
Life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793484 -

Just showing that blanket bans are in effect in some states:
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/smoke-911-manager-charged-with-selling-controlled-/nR4Ky/


--------------------

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16793499 -

bryguy said:
Quote:
it doesnt matter if someone has been charged, it doesnt mean it isnt illegal
since it's clearly defined in federal labeling laws


Right but what I am arguing is that it doesn't seem like they've ever been able to build a case on that premise otherwise they would have probably been all over it. Maybe you're right and I will be the VERY first, but I highly doubt that.



no, typically when someone catches a charge associated with using something
inconsistent with labeling it's a charge such as murder, manslaughter or some
other more serious charge, for instance I cant use antifreeze as a drink mixer
and serve you a special cocktail that results in your death, at that point why
would then need to charge me under labeling laws when they have something that
will land me in prison for years instead of a fine and probation

you continue to argue the absurd. if you want to smoke spice, smoke all you
want, keep telling the judge you make good arguments, not like I care


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Community > The Pub
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