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Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" * 1
    #16786038 -

So about a week ago I violated my probation for smoking spice. However, the rules in probation are extremely vague...they stipulate that you can't use ANY substitute for cannabis. What does this even mean? First of all, MOST spice products are not even marketed expressly as a "substitute for cannabis" in any way. Second, how is smoking spice any fundamentally different than huffing paint or getting high off windex? Are they going to violate people for that? (technically they still could because that would be using these products in a manner in which they are not intended, but for the sake of argument let's assume we're talking about a chemical you can get high off of that has no such legal disclaimer or stipulation).

So, then the argument becomes anything that produces effects SIMILAR to cannabis...again arbitrary and extremely vague. I could say that chamomile tea produces effects similar to cannabis and that I drank chamomile tea with the intent of getting a cannabis-like high or a mildly similar relaxation effect. (Also, I guess you could say things that are defined as "synthetic cannabinoids" would qualify but this doesn't work either since "synthetic cannabinoids" is more of a colloquialism than an objective scientific term...if they could REALLY cite an objective, all-encompassing chemical attribute to these so-called "synthetic cannabinoids" then I'm sure legislators would have been MORE than successful in making a blanket ban on all spice by now). Few things give me more joy or amusement as watching legislators flail around trying to ban "spice" when they can't even define it...the fact that probation terms can skirt this so easily and arbitrarily really pisses me off.:mad2:

I decided to plead guilty this time and not go to a real hearing, but the judge admitted I was making good arguments. My actual PO is too slow witted to process the arguments I'm making because I'm pretty sure she is pretty much constantly spaced out on benzos. I mostly plead guilty because I didn't feel like going through the hassle of a hearing and because all I'll have to do for a first time violation is 2 days of community service.

However, I have a plan to drive my point home to this stupid bitch, since she thinks that somehow using something with the intent to get a "cannabis-like high" should constitute their ability to violate my probation. Before I tell you my plan, NO NOT come into this thread ranting about bullshit about how you supposedly have "no rights" on probation...you still have rights, you STILL are entitled to a legal hearing before a judge when you violate and you can still get a lawyer to argue your case. Also, don't tell me that stupid shit about how I should just "go along with it" so I don't "piss off" my PO. I honestly don't give a fuck about my PO it may be her decision to violate me but it's the judge that actually determines whether the violation stands and he also determines my sentence so I don't really give a shit about her or if I make her mad. Okay? None of that bullshit in this thread because frankly I think people who are afraid of making their POs mad are pussies...as long as you don't give them any ammunition or reason to violate you they can't do shit and even if you do it's ultimately up to the judge so if you're going to be "afraid" of anyone it should be him.

Okay, so the next time my color is called (assuming I test negative, which I should) I'm going to say something like "well, I'm happy I tested negative but I have a confession to make" Then I'm going to proceed to pull out a pack a cigarettes (I've never smoked I bought them just for this occasion) a 5 hour energy drink, and a box of chamomile tea, and tell her how all these things produce effects for me that I liken to the effects of marijuana, and that is the reason why I used them...the tea calms me down, the cigarettes give me a buzz and the 5 hour perks me up. I don't think this will really do anything but it will at least help to hammer the point I'm trying to make into her thick head. The second part of my plan is to buy a spice product online. I'm going to make sure that NOTHING on the package can be expressly construed as implying that it is supposed to be a substitute for cannabis or that the site selling it doesn't market it that way in any way...most sites don't and most packages don't. The best ammunition the pack of it that I used this time gave them was that it said "potpouri" on it, which they said implied that it was likening itself to pot. So none of those markings but it will still look like a pack of spice. Then, I'm going to dump out the contents, rinse it thoroughly with soap and cleaner and erase all traces of the original substance or the chemicals coating it. I'm going to replace this with something completely benign (maybe chamomile tea) and then bring it in. I will tell her I have been smoking it and when they do the test (she said an officer had to come in and test the stuff I got caught with originally) he will find absolutely nothing illicit about it. So, I will basically have a pack that looks like spice, seems like spice, but not only will it not contain any explicit implications that it's actually intended as a substitute for cannabis but it won't contain any illicit chemicals whatsoever.

I'm hoping (not planning but I have to try) that this will force them to completely revamp the terms of their probation. DON'T tell me that bullshit about how they can just violate you whenever they want...there is still a process they have to go through showing you violated the actual terms that they set out and my argument is that as it currently stands they can violate you for pretty much ANYTHING construed as a "substitute," which could include tobacco and chamomile tea. If I'm lucky their entire system will fall apart and they will be forced to allow people to smoke spice again as long as the particular chemical you are smoking hasn't been expressly scheduled or banned. Last, this is more a matter of principle and human rights than anything else since I barely ever even smoke spice and don't care about it that much and the worst possible case is that these tards will violate me again anyways and the most I will possibly have to do is spend a few days in jail but at least I will be able to live with myself knowing I tried.


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Life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing

Edited by bryguy (09/04/12 10:44 AM)

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16786132 -

Quote:
First of all, MOST spice products are not even marketed expressly as a "substitute for cannabis" in any way


Well no shit. That would be illegal.

Edit: And don't do that, you'll just waste everyones time. You violated the terms of your parole, get over it.


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Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home
Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)

Edited by NizzyJones (09/04/12 11:06 AM)

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: NizzyJones]
    #16786278 -

I fully support this, except bringing in the bag of spice with chamomile, you might be pushing your luck there.

Maybe not though, they would look like pretty big dumbasses to try to charge you with a bag of chamomile tea.
What's the worst that could really happen, Nizzy?
Keeping his mouth shut about it is only giving them more power with more potential for abuse.
Bringing up this argument to their faces and talking about these issues is the only way they're ever going to change.


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I need Jesus.

Edited by thoughts (09/04/12 11:33 AM)

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16786372 -

I really don't see the point of this.  You won't change a damn thing, and you will just piss off your PO.  Thus, you have nothing to gain beyond a passing "fuck you PO, I so 1337."  Instead of pleading guilty to your VOP, you should have fought it.  You probably could have won and set a precedent for future offenders in that exact same situation.  Instead, you chose to lay down and take it and then do some stupid show which nothing good will come of after you pleaded guilty to show how the VOP was bullshit.  :shrug:


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"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

Edited by All We Perceive (09/04/12 11:53 AM)

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: thoughts]
    #16786417 -

Actually... In a lot of places the worst case scenario isn't a couple days in jail... I think in most states you can sit in jail on a probation detainer for 90 days waiting for your court appearance over a violation... I'd just count my lucky stars and take the 2 days, rather than push my luck and piss off the system that holds my fate by a thread, because if you piss them off, they CAN and probably will make you sit the full detainer term until you get your court appearance...

Maybe your area is different.. but last time I violated in PA, I sat for 40 days waiting for my court date just to get time served and re-sentenced... and that was with 1000 dollars dumped into an attorney to try and get my detainer lifted until my court date, so they just turned my detainer lift hearing into my actual court date for the violation... They were even having a lot of dudes sit for MORE than the 90 days that the state habeas corpus law technically allows... but since most people don't have an attorney, they just get fucked into sitting for 90+ days, waiting for their court date with no one being the wiser, just to get off on time served and re-sentenced to their original probation period.

Like I said, maybe your area is different, and they actually have to get you in front of a judge before they throw your ass in the can... but in my experience, it's best just to say fuck it and realize you're a second class citizen until you get off paper. 3 months of sitting around just to find out if you actually violated in the eyes of a judge, just isn't worth it in terms of how much of your life it fucks up.


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I promise to live, love, exist, and be, and hope that all life will love to be in existence with me. Also, fuck you.

-j

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: TheSlapnCapn]
    #16786437 -

I'm guessing this was a misdemeanor VOP you're talking about?  Can you negotiate a plea with the district attorney during your time in jail?  40 days sounds very excessive.


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"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: All We Perceive]
    #16786450 -

How do you guys expect anything in any given situation to change then?

When i was locked up there was this pod guard that was the biggest BITCH in the entire facility. She would cross the line with some things, making people clean stairs with a toothbrush, putting us on lockdown for 4 days straight for some petty bullshit.

She called me a bitch for not listening to her and somehow managed to turn it around on me and said i called her a bitch, i lost some food privileges and she sent me to max security.

She was a horrible waste of life and eventually i heard stories of her having a drinking problem.

I wrote a detailed grievance letter about her and some sergeant or highly ranked officer came and talked to me about it and listened to me.
A few days passed and she stopped showing up.


How do you guys expect things to change by keeping your mouth shut?


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I need Jesus.

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: thoughts]
    #16786506 -

Despite RP's "confusion" over spice being a marijuana alternative, that is what it is WELL KNOWN for being.  Sure, they don't put that on the package, but people ONLY smoke spice if they can't get weed or can't smoke weed.  Thus, this is a grey area which should be settled by a judge--that is why they are there after all.  I personally don't see what RP's PO did wrong; this is nothing like being made to scrub the floor with a toothbrush or the like.  The PO made a choice based on an arguably reasonable interpretation of the rule.  It even seemed like the judge was receptive to RP's arguments but he still chose to plead guilty.  If his argument was really "so strong," he would have not pleaded guilty.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

Edited by All We Perceive (09/04/12 12:17 PM)

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: All We Perceive]
    #16786553 -

Just because you're already guilty doesn't mean that any argument you have about why or how you're guilty will be thrown out the window.

He chose to plead guilty because it was convenient, not because he really believes he's guilty.


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I need Jesus.

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy] * 2
    #16786586 -

bryguy said:
So about a week ago I violated my probation for smoking spice. However, the rules in probation are extremely vague...they stipulate that you can't use ANY substitute for cannabis.




that's not vague, that's pretty damned clear


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: thoughts]
    #16786611 -

iwasaClown said:
Just because you're already guilty doesn't mean that any argument you have about why or how you're guilty will be thrown out the window.



Yes it does. 

Quote:
He chose to plead guilty because it was convenient, not because he really believes he's guilty



He never said he pleaded guilty because it was convenient.


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"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: All We Perceive]
    #16786644 -

I'm not saying he'd win the argument and get off free, that's very unlikely, i'm just saying it's definitely worth bringing up.

All We Perceive said:
He never said he pleaded guilty because it was convenient.


Quote:
I mostly plead guilty because I didn't feel like going through the hassle of a hearing and because all I'll have to do for a first time violation is 2 days of community service.


Sounds to me like he did.


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I need Jesus.

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: All We Perceive]
    #16786650 -

OP =

Blame the system for your fuck up, real mature.

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: thoughts]
    #16786666 -

iwasaClown said:
I'm not saying he'd win the argument and get off free, that's very unlikely, i'm just saying it's definitely worth bringing up.

All We Perceive said:
He never said he pleaded guilty because it was convenient.


Quote:
I mostly plead guilty because I didn't feel like going through the hassle of a hearing and because all I'll have to do for a first time violation is 2 days of community service.


Sounds to me like he did.


If he was in jail and was going to be there for a while, that would be convenient to plead out.  It just sounds like he was too lazy to show up to court in this case, or more likely, he knew his argument was bullshit so he just took the plea.


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"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: All We Perceive]
    #16786683 -

Well fuck, bryguy, come explain yo shit.


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I need Jesus.

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16787186 -

bryguy said:
:emocry:



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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: Everlong]
    #16787598 -

In my probation they say you cant use any mind altering substances . Which means other the cigs you cant use anything alse . But guess what we still do . You just gotta be smart about it .


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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16787885 -

bryguy said:
So, then the argument becomes anything that produces effects SIMILAR to cannabis...again arbitrary and extremely vague.


Not necessarily.  There is some legal precedent for determining the types of studies required to deem something as "cannabis like".

So what exactly did they catch you using?...do you even know?  and are you familiar with any of the medical literature related to the particular substance?


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: badchad]
    #16789823 -

Quote:
that's not vague, that's pretty damned clear


Haha are you fucking serious? I'm just going to go ahead and assume that you didn't read the "book" that I wrote. Any reasonable person could argue that pretty much any mind altering substance could be considered a substitute for cannabis...hell, even chamomile tea. I know you love the system but sometimes you just have to admit when they're bullshitting people.
Quote:
Sounds to me like he did.


The main reason I plead guilty was because my PO led me to believe that if I demanded a hearing and wasted the court's time then it could involve jail time. So I just said fuck it and admitted that I knew it was a substitute...she seemed to be implying that if I was being honest I could avoid jail. That was my main concern...but honestly I still did feel like a pussy for pleading out. That is why I thought of this plan...just so I could fucking live with myself. You faggots saying I should just lay down and let the system fuck me are hilarious.:thumbup: Also, the fact that the stuff I bought contained the word "potpouri" was pretty damning. I think that was really the only ammunition they had though and if the PO hadn't misled me I never would have admitted shit.
Quote:
Not necessarily. There is some legal precedent for determining the types of studies required to deem something as "cannabis like".


That's interesting...but it kind of frightens me that they can use such subjective studies in determining something as objective as legal precedent. Can you point me to these studies? This could be really the only kink in my plan and the only way to fuck me over.
Quote:
So what exactly did they catch you using?...do you even know?  and are you familiar with any of the medical literature related to the particular substance?


The product was called "Scooby Snax" and the active chemical was UR-144. I think that this particular chemical is too new to really have much, if any, literature on it but if they really have all-encompassing studies then I may still indeed be fucked.
Quote:
Just because you're already guilty doesn't mean that any argument you have about why or how you're guilty will be thrown out the window.

He chose to plead guilty because it was convenient, not because he really believes he's guilty.


Really? That's interesting. I was under the impression that pleading guilty was akin to throwing away your rights to a trial. I'm going to be talking to a lawyer before I do any of this anyways so I should be able to get this ironed out.
Quote:
Despite RP's "confusion" over spice being a marijuana alternative, that is what it is WELL KNOWN for being.


Haha you sound just like my probation officer...tell me more arbitrary bullshit.
Quote:
And don't do that, you'll just waste everyones time.


I'm doing all this on the very slim chance I might be able to set some kind of legal precedent by winning, and helping others in the same situation, and so I can sleep at night after pleading guilty to their arbitrary bullshit. To give them credit though, I did give them a LOT of ammunition simply because of the label "potpouri" on the spice...the bag I bring in this time will have nothing like that on it. Also, I was pretty much fucked when my PO misled me into confessing by implying jail time if I tried fighting it. I almost NEVER admit anything to police but I was just kind of under the impression that nothing you said would matter while you're on probation...I thought if I took it to a hearing the judge would just look at the bag, get pissed for wasting the court's time, and send me off to jail (maybe he would have, considering the blatant reference to pot) The fact that the judge was so open to my logic really surprised me and I probably NEVER would have made that admission otherwise, at LEAST without talking to a lawyer first.


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Life is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing

Edited by bryguy (09/04/12 10:07 PM)

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Re: Probation and arbitrary rules about "spice" [Re: bryguy]
    #16789965 -

this whole thing sounds incredibly dumb but good luck i guess...


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"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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