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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Entropy?
    #15645447 -

This might be an odd post but I have been wondering this for a while and I seen to come up short when I look for an answer. So as I understand it entropy is the measurement from order to disorder in a given system and as time goes by it will always move from an ordered system to a disordered system. So my question is- If the past is always a more ordered system than the present and future how do ordered things come to be? How did the universe after the big bang turn from a bunch of loose hydrogen floating around to an more ordered system such as galaxies, star, solar systems? To me that seems backwards, should things be becoming more chaotic? To me it seems as more time goes by thing become more ordered than they were in the past. As I understand it-
Order ----->* chaos
but as I see it it looks like-
chaos ---->* order

* ----> arrow of time.
Do you now see my dilemma? Any help clearing this up for me would be very, very much appreciated.


--------------------
May you be filled with loving kindness.
May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
May you be happy.


AMU Q&A

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Re: Entropy? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #15645473 -

Gravity, antiparticles and chance :trippinballs:
entropy is always increasing.
DC


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The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable
Is the violence that we do to ourselves
When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.

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Re: Entropy? [Re: maynardjameskeenan] * 2
    #15645478 -

A problem is that you are using a rough pop-science description of entropy and misinterpreting it.  Entropy is the logarithm of the microstates available to a closed system.  This is the quantity that increases.  Most people dont know what that means, so they use words like 'order' to describe it.  Which is good, but can lead to misunderstandings if applied too far.

Also, you are not using Chaos in a scientific sense.  In science chaos is not the opposite of order nor is it entropy, a chaotic system is one that is highly sensitive to initial conditions. 

Let me add that a collection of galaxies certainly has higher entropy than a small hot early universe.  There are many many ways to order a universe of galaxies so the log of the number of microstates available is high.  There are only a few ways to order a hot small universe, so the log of the number of microstates is low.

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Re: Entropy? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #15645542 -

Chaos in a mathematical sense means that a closed system can have an output of radical difference depending on very minute changes in its initial conditions.

DieCommie is correct, popular science has distorted the mathematical definitions of entropy and chaos beyond recognition :bored:

Here is a good animation that will detail the basics of Chaos Theory to you.

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/Flash/Chaos/Bunimovich/Bunimovich.html

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Re: Entropy? [Re: Caine]
    #15645557 -

Well of course it looks like it has gone from chaos to order from our perspective, but from a non-human perspective, eneergy has dissipated over space for the last 14.6 billion years, planets have formed but space is no longer one giant field of energy, it is in many different forms and diffused throughout the universe as electromagnetic radiation etc.


good post OP


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Re: Entropy? [Re: DieCommie]
    #15645558 -

DieCommie said:
A problem is that you are using a rough pop-science description of entropy and misinterpreting it.  Entropy is the logarithm of the microstates available to a closed system.  This is the quantity that increases.  Most people dont know what that means, so they use words like 'order' to describe it.  Which is good, but can lead to misunderstandings if applied too far.

Also, you are not using Chaos in a scientific sense.  In science chaos is not the opposite of order nor is it entropy, a chaotic system is one that is highly sensitive to initial conditions. 

Let me add that a collection of galaxies certainly has higher entropy than a small hot early universe.  There are many many ways to order a universe of galaxies so the log of the number of microstates available is high.  There are only a few ways to order a hot small universe, so the log of the number of microstates is low.


First off, thank you. Okay so let me get this strait- the more that time goes on, the more possible outcome any given system has? Please forgive my ignorance.


--------------------
May you be filled with loving kindness.
May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
May you be happy.


AMU Q&A

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Re: Entropy? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #15645588 -

The physical is inherently entropic, giving off energy in ever more disorderly ways. The metaphysical is antientropic, methodically marshalling energy. Life is antientropic. It is spontaneously inquisitive. It sorts out and endeavors to understand.

- Bucky Fuller

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Re: Entropy? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #15645613 -

This may help you understand Entropy a bit better, OP.

Consider a box divided in half by a permeable partition. With each tick of a clock, there is probability P that a particle in one half of the box will cross to the other half. If n1 and n2 are numbers of particles in the left and right sides, then a given particle lies with probability p1=n1/(n1+n2) on the left side, and p2=n2/(n1+n2) on the right side. The entropy of the probability distribution is

S=p1 log(p1) + p2 log(p2)



The above animation shows how particles and entropy S evolve for initial n1=100 and n2=0. Initially S=0, because S measures the deficit of information between knowledge of (p1,p2) and a complete specification of the system: when all particles lie in the left-hand side, there is no uncertainty as to the location of individual particles. As the particles `mix' across the partition, S approaches one bit per particle. This is because when p1=p2=1/2, individual particles are equally likely to lie in either half of the box. Thus, one bit is needed to specify the location of each particle. Notice that S fluctuates because the number of particles is finite. These fluctuations disappear if the number of particles approaches infinity, or if averages are performed over an infinite ensemble of statistically identical systems.

from planetwater.ca

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Re: Entropy? [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #15645685 -

realfuzzhead said:
Well of course it looks like it has gone from chaos to order from our perspective, but from a non-human perspective, eneergy has dissipated over space for the last 14.6 billion years, planets have formed but space is no longer one giant field of energy, it is in many different forms and diffused throughout the universe as electromagnetic radiation etc.


good post OP


This is how I view entropy as a layman also, and to complete that, and help OP's understanding as to what he was getting at, eventually everything will spread out so much that there will only be tiny pockets of isolated energy, not the clusters of galaxies we have now, which is a "midway" point.

Someone more knowledgeable in physics will correct me, though, I'm sure of it. :tongue:


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triptych

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Re: Entropy? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #15645692 -

maynardjameskeenan said:
First off, thank you. Okay so let me get this strait- the more that time goes on, the more possible outcome any given system has? Please forgive my ignorance.


As time goes on, the macro-state you are in will have more possible micro-states associated with it.

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Re: Entropy? [Re: KingEmblem]
    #15645700 -

The fact that entropy holds in general only amplifies the relative rarity of the complex order we are experiencing. This is roughly the basis for the inductive argument for Deism.

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Re: Entropy? [Re: KingEmblem]
    #15645799 -

I have read that it is possible that in 10ˆ100 years that the universe could become cold, spread out and lifeless. Would it be possible for the entire universe to act as a super-fluid when it gets cold enough and condense back-in on itself? It seems such an undramatic ending to this whole thing if it all just goes cold and stagnant.


--------------------
May you be filled with loving kindness.
May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
May you be happy.


AMU Q&A

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Re: Entropy? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #15645820 -

Only in the case that the universe is a closed system. We don't know that. But yes, it would recollapse.

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Re: Entropy? [Re: morrowasted]
    #15645876 -

Quote:
How did the universe after the big bang turn from a bunch of loose hydrogen floating around to an more ordered system such as galaxies, star, solar systems?


Cooling.  Hydrogen didn't even exist for thousands of years after the big bang...just hydrogen nuclei and free floating electrons.  It was simply to hot for them to associate.

When you're thinking molecularly...heat is almost always the case when dealing with entropy.  Higher heat --> more "disorder", higher entropy.  Bonds are able to break with heat, things dissociate.  The Big Bang was hot as fuck and it wasn't until it cooled significantly that atoms started to form and then cooling even more to form all the other joys of our Universe.

Quote:
So as I understand it entropy is the measurement from order to disorder in a given system and as time goes by it will always move from an ordered system to a disordered system.


This all depends.  But remember, entropy is constant in the Universe.  For entropy of one system to increase, entropy from another system must decrease.  Work must be involved.  If it is a totally isolated system...entropy will not decrease.

Entropy is really easy for me to think about in my closed reactor loops, it starts becoming too much to handle when people talk about the "what-ifs" of the Universe (where the laws of physics may or may not be the same as what we've been observing).


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"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."

Francois-Marie Arouet

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Re: Entropy? [Re: Caine]
    #15645883 -

Caine said:
Only in the case that the universe is a closed system. We don't know that. But yes, it would recollapse.


If the universe is a truly closed and isolated system, how could it re-collapse?  An isolated system is in a pure state and thus has a constant entropy.

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Re: Entropy? [Re: Caine]
    #15645889 -

Caine said:
Only in the case that the universe is a closed system. We don't know that. But yes, it would recollapse.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one the deepest things you will ever read, whether you realize it or not.

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Re: Entropy? [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #15645896 -

The Last question Isaac Asimov, required reading.
http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html
:psychsplit:


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:bow2::bow2::bow2: :bow2::bow2::bow2:

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Re: Entropy? [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #15645913 -

DieCommie said:
Caine said:
Only in the case that the universe is a closed system. We don't know that. But yes, it would recollapse.


If the universe is a truly closed and isolated system, how could it re-collapse?  An isolated system is in a pure state and thus has a constant entropy.


In the event that the universe does not extend indefinitely, it would get incredibly hot as it recollapsed into a black hole. However, this disagrees with the mechanics principle stating that a particle cannot occupy a volume smaller than its wavelength.

Also, it's important to note that the recollapse of the universe would have nothing to do with matter becoming superfluid, instead the recollapse has to do with the mutual attraction of gravity between particles, out of accordance with the cosmological principle. I probably should have specified that to the OP in my previous post for the sake of alleviating confusion, as it is certainly a confusing topic, but what's done is done.

So essentially we know absolutely nothing and can only grope in the darkness at an answer.

Edited by Caine (01/10/12 06:32 PM)

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Re: Entropy? [Re: Caine]
    #15645966 -

You guys are great! This is the reason I love this site so much... the people on it. You should take a bow because you are champion human being in my book. :hatsoff: Thank you for clearing this up for me kind sirs. :congrats:


--------------------
May you be filled with loving kindness.
May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
May you be happy.


AMU Q&A

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Re: Entropy? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #15646007 -

maynardjameskeenan said:
I have read that it is possible that in 10ˆ100 years that the universe could become cold, spread out and lifeless. Would it be possible for the entire universe to act as a super-fluid when it gets cold enough and condense back-in on itself? It seems such an undramatic ending to this whole thing if it all just goes cold and stagnant.


maynardjameskeenan, as I understand it the current BS (Belief System) is that the universe is expanding and accelerating and indeed will end up "cold, spread out and lifeless".  And spread apart so far that gravity would not be able to pull it back together.  Therefor your idea of the universe acting as a super-fluid would not be possible.

So it seems to my current BS
ZOM

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