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Amazon Shop for: San Pedro, St. John's Wort

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OfflineAziraphale
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Registered: 01/23/03
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Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical)
    #1330797 - 02/24/03 07:43 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Two nights ago I took 14 grams of little, fresh P. Cubensis. It was my third trip, but from my reading was nearly twice as intense as it should have been. After the coming up period which was marked with intense nausea (no doubt due to the pizza I had consumed) my trip settled into at a high level 3 -- but felt subjectively as if my mind was completely gone.

Quote:

From my journal: "What the hell was that sound?!

It wasn't our game of Scrabble, it was my thinking process scrambling itself. The constant verbal voice in my head (which I identify as my ego) fragmented and became mindless sound. There were no real thoughts anymore, just: Blrrb Bbbb Llllell Trrrgy. Flrrgly Plurrgly Blurbly?

Blurby Peei Terpb!!!!

I stared around the room uncomprehendingly. This was terrifying.

Aeeioiuu! EEEEeeblleel!

(Is it ego-death when the voice in your head, the decision-maker (i.e. "I") ceases to even make nonsense or does it only count as ego-death when the voice stops altogether?)"




I think that my peculiar sensitivity was due to the herbal supplements that I had been taking, rather than any extreme emotional response to the shrooms.

I was taking:

* 1640 mg Ginseng (daily, for weeks now)
* 110 mg Ginkgo Biloba (daily, for weeks)
* 900 mg St. John's Wort (just started that morning)

Ruling out Ginkgo and Ginseng as being harmless, I think the culpret was St. John's Wort. I have a great book, The Psychopharmacology of Herbal Medicine and it says that while St. John's Wort is a MAO inhibitor, it's a weak one. It inhibits MAOa and MAOb only in the millimotor range and more importantly:

Quote:

"Another action of hypericum [St. John's Wort] constituents that is particularly relevant to antidepressant effects is the ability to inhibit neuronal reuptake of monoamines. The half-maximal inhibition for monoamine uptake is 100 times lower than for the inhibition of MAOa or MAOb. Hyperforin is the major contributor to this action, blocking reuptake of 5-HT, norepinephrine, and dopamine...

"In addition to reuptake effects, subchronic treatment with hyperforin... up-regulates 5-HT2 receptors in the frontal cortex of the rat. Chronic (26-week) daily treatment with 2700 mg/kg of a hypericum extract up-regulates the affinity and density of both 5-HT1A and 5-HT2 receptors by 50%..."



Now, I'm no medical scientist (although I have an high IQ and am good at puzzling out things) so I take this to mean that a sub-chronic (which seems to mean one-time, or short-time dose) of St. John's Wort it would make the 5-HT2 receptors in the frontal cortex more "available" to 5-HT2 than the other parts of the brain because they're not up-taking (storing) 5-HT2 like they normally would. This is important as the frontal cortex is responsible for planning and cognition and refering back to my scrambled thoughts, which persisted throughout the entire trip, the frontal cortex was the part of me that was completely mind-fucked.

Here's where the puzzle starts to come together.

Quote:

From the pharmacology section of this site: "It is believed that psilocybin, LSD, and DMT work by mimicking the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT), one of the most important and widespread of the brain's synaptic neurochemical messengers. The mimicking occurs because LSD, and particularly psilocybin, possess an almost identical molecular structure to serotonin i.e. their shape is so similar that they are able to 'fool' and infiltrate parts of the brain which process information using serotonergic synapses.

"...One particular serotonin receptor though - the so-called 5-HT2 type - appears to represent a common site of action of both psilocybin and mescaline."



So if psilocybe's active effects occur at 5-HT2 receptors and St. John's Wort up-regulates 5-HT2 receptors (in the cognition and logic areas of my brain) then that means that while I was undergoing a "level 3" experience, my cognitive capabilities were undergoing a "level 5" as the psilocybe effects were concentrated there.

Does that make sense?

I'm not ruling out emotional instability. I don't think that I'm emotionally unstable. But after this experience I've decided to see a therapist for a few sessions to see if I'm as fucked as this trip seemed to imply that I was. But it would sure make me feel better if someone else out there could verify that I'm interpreting the medical texts correctly.

If my analysis is correct, then perhaps this should be added the FAQs. Certainly many people take St. John's Wort for it's "mood-lifting" abilities and don't realize that it's playing with the very same receptors as shrooms do.


Edited by Aziraphale (02/24/03 12:10 PM)


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InvisibleGalvie_Flu
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Re: St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical) *DELETED* [Re: Aziraphale]
    #1332467 - 02/24/03 07:04 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by shaos

Reason for deletion: deleted



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OfflineAziraphale
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Re: St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical) [Re: Galvie_Flu]
    #1333161 - 02/25/03 04:43 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

i dunno about the last part where you said that when the ht2 receptors were more sensitive to their signals. Just because they are more sensitive to it, doesnt mean that the trip was bigger. I do believe that your trip was intensified because the psilocin didnt get reuptaken, therefore, it stayed in the synapse a lil longer.

Now for your "ego" loss, probably didnt lose it, cuz if you did, you would not be so sure that you did, because your memory would be so fucked (hypothalimus) that you would not remember it. However, it probably got distorted, or bypassed. I was reading about ketamine, which i have had in the hospital before, and they say it does dissolve the ego temporarily. And those sounds you said you heard, like non-sensicle, well, i heard similar sounds on ketamine, infact, this is what they sounded like when i and the doctors where talking.
sounds




Hmm... that's interesting. What tripped me out the most was that I had only taken the equivalent of 1.4 grams dried. And there I was seeing the inside of things and full-blown dancing kaledioscope universes with my eyes closed. Madness.

I agree with you though, I don't think it was ego-loss. I was just surprised at the unpleasant ego-fucking, you'd think the shrooms would have been nice enough to bypass that part of the brain directly instead of making me contend with a logic system that simply didn't work anymore.

(The link didn't load.)

Thanks for the input.

In a month I'm going to delve into the next trip, same dose. If I get "normal" shroom effects then I'm going to mention in the FAQ section that in my experience St. John's Wort lead to bad things. Perhaps we could get some other people to try it and see if their experience intensified.


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OfflineSparklehorse
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Re: St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical) [Re: Aziraphale]
    #1333525 - 02/25/03 07:33 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Hey there. I take St John's Wort thrice a day to stop me from going into panic attacks every half hour. I have had to take it ever since I had a panic attack on marijuana two years ago. Since then I have had but one trip, and I too experienced some nonsensical hallucinations, mainly aural. For example, I often heared what sounded like people brainstorming in order to solve a mystery in some holywood film, and I'd hear helicopters and klaxons etc. I have not taken mushrooms since, so I can not be sure if this is a result of ST Johns Wort. Although interestingly I didn't experience panic once in this trip, whether that was down to st johns wort i can not tell


--------------------
________________________________
No stranger than that!


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OfflinePDU
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Re: St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical) [Re: Aziraphale]
    #1338510 - 02/26/03 06:41 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I took 7grams of mushrooms with 1400mg of st johns wort, and had my most intense experience to date...but ive only ever taken 7grams that once. I was on the verge of ego loss...but never quite got there. It was EXTREMELY profound. Although only minor visuals, open or close eyed. When open All words spun, and the individual letters spun the opposite direction. I asked the people on this board and they dismissed the possibility that st johns wort contributed to the experience. (i also have a high natural tolerence to mushrooms effects)....im interested to see what comes of this.


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GO OUTSIDE.


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OfflineAziraphale
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Re: St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical) [Re: PDU]
    #1339333 - 02/27/03 05:15 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Although only minor visuals, open or close eyed. When open All words spun, and the individual letters spun the opposite direction. I asked the people on this board and they dismissed the possibility that st johns wort contributed to the experience. (i also have a high natural tolerence to mushrooms effects)....im interested to see what comes of this.




Holy shit. That's really interesting.

Quote:

From my journal entry about that night: Then in addition to trails, red shadows, minor latticework, etc. letters appeared in the shadows of the room. They were very bright and very "loud" letters.

This is significant because my voice in my head was worriedly asking, blrrgly eeeeioiue? And the letters "screamed" at me by brightening in neon color. I'd suppose that the nearest thing I've seen to it before was when I saw the Matrix years back, the letters conforming to the shape of the environment... It was similar, I suppose {frustrated}, but somehow it really, really hurt my head. They were mocking me.

During the rare lucid moments, I kept trying to relax and accept what was going on but I was just a man in pain. The letters spun and danced (in tight little circles) with my eyes open or closed. And that's how the trip played out for the next three or four hours until I touched down.






The spinning letters were a dominant persistent hallucination for that trip. I later attributed it to playing scrabble during the come-up, but your hallucination sounded quite similar and your dosage of St. John's Wort while heavier than mine, was also a high dose.

Did the appearance of letters worry you?

I felt at the time that they represented symbols (i.e. logic) and they were mocking me because I couldn't understand anything. It was like my logic was taken away from me and externalized. It certainly doesn't make sense, but that's how I felt. It was quite distressing at the time.


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Offlineloupgaroublond
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Registered: 02/27/03
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Re: St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical) [Re: Aziraphale]
    #1340980 - 02/27/03 04:10 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The second time i ever tripped in only tripped on a gram and half but i had been taking the wort for a week. Normally i trip for about three hours, but this time i tripped out for a good long seven hours, felt like the universe in which i existed was torn apart at the seams, and i travelled across it atom by atom. Later on, i had a bad trip due to some person issues, but during the bad trip, i was still getting full open eye visuals. I would suspect the wort had something to do wiht my trip. I will tell you that harmala brews which are MAOIs will also boost trips which is the principle of the ahayusca brew.


--------------------
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Its only fun until someone has a bad trip
Then its hillarious
---------------------------------------------------


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OfflinePDU
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Re: St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical) [Re: Aziraphale]
    #1342908 - 02/28/03 01:31 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I really dont know if the appearance of letters bothered me or not. Everything was super intense, also a very long trip, and these were outdoor fairly impotent mushies aswell. I wasnt hallucinating these words and letters though...they were on posters, on the computer, and such...and this was probably..4-5 hours into the trip, and persisted for a good 2 hours.

There is always a possibility that what we experienced is simply placebo thinking :holy shit, i just ate lots of an MAOI: I really dont know, it certainly didnt hurt the trip, Ill do it again. Id like some definitive answers...if anyone can provide some more...indepth insight it would be great.


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GO OUTSIDE.


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InvisibleGalvie_Flu
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Re: St. John's Wort + Shrooms Freakout (Warning: Technical) [Re: PDU]
    #1343018 - 02/28/03 02:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Simple, but it may be true. St. Johns Wart blocked the reuptake "pumps" in the pre-synaptic nerve ending, thus keeping the psilocin from being destroyed.


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Amazon Shop for: San Pedro, St. John's Wort

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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