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General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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Is it possible to be mystical and yet...
    #9748132 -

...not believe in the soul or in an afterlife?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9748135 -

I suppose so. But a 'mystical' path seems to lead to that there is 'awareness' after our physical body dies.

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9748842 -

I've heard Existentialism described as a sort of atheistic mysticism.


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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9748908 -

This is a problem that I deal with.

On one hand I am for the most part atheistic, scientific, and don't believe in a soul or afterlife.

But on the other hand I realize the limits of science, am very agnostic and open, and have an intuition and appreciation of spirituality and mysticism.

When it all boils down, if everything is Matter or everything is Spirit, aren't we saying the same thing anyway?  :shrug:

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9748926 -

I think scientists can sound very mystical when describing our oneness with the universe.  For example:



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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9748928 -

Yes, but the journey will most likely change your views. I go by the definition that a mystic tries to achieve a one on one connection to God. That is what most religious mystics do. The word mysticism is a little less clear cut.

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: Indigenous]
    #9749920 -

Of course silly.  The path of mysticism/magick has led me AWAY from notions of reincarnation and the afterlife.  I consider the soul to be the will/omniversal necessity(might go into more depth on that later- time limited now).  It's almost as if it is a requirement to accept some notion of reincarnation or the afterlife these days.  Claim that you die and everything left of your being gets eaten by the worms and maggots or consumed in an inferno, and you're deemed a pessimistic ignore-ant. 

But are'nt these ideas of the afterlife selfish?  If <insert hippie voice> "we're all connected man", then what does it matter if one dies and that's that consciousness wise?  We're just shells.  These afterlife ideas instill spiritual laziness IMO.  "I'll do better the next life".  Or, dogmatic constraints "I'm going to heaven because...".  The afterlife no longer fits into my reality structure so I have discarded it.


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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9750130 -

deCypher said:
...not believe in the soul or in an afterlife?


It's all in your definitions. To me, mysticism had the connotation of seeking some connection to a supreme/otherworldly being, so I would say no (keeping in mind that I am in no way an expert on the subject). I'd like to hear what your definition (or perhaps THE definition) of mysticism is, if you care to share it.


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Step 1: Look up at the stars
Step 2: Realize they must be Gods
Step 3: Know that you're the same

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: Nightingale]
    #9750786 -

I say No. :cool:

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: jvm]
    #9753103 -

jvm said:
I suppose so. But a 'mystical' path seems to lead to that there is 'awareness' after our physical body dies.


Not necessarily.  I can just as easily dissolve my sense of boundaries of self (thereby precipitating classic ego-death) or evoke/invoke certain personality subroutines (possession/summoning akin to metaphysical demonolatry, if you prefer that paradigm) without gaining any knowledge about the afterlife.

I trust insights received while on entheogens and during communication with subconscious entities only insofar as they agree with my experiences and how well they mesh with my other beliefs.  Consciousness seems too inherently tied to its neural substrate to be truly liberated after death; I believe that any disturbance in the tremendously complicated biomechanical action that makes 'you' you will destroy your individual consciousness--although lately my ontological views have been leaning towards panpsychism and neutral monism, I feel that subjective experience is more a matter of degree than anything else and that the dissolution of my singular mind does not destroy mind, but rather separates it into the individual atoms/monads that comprise its building blocks.

I do think that the existence of personal thought and subjective metaphysical experience does point toward the existence of spirits; this gets wrapped up in my idea of the Technological Singularity and the inevitable merging towards a Collective Consciousness.  I substantiate these ideas primarily through personal experience and a priori reasoning, but still I can see nothing necessarily pointing towards a soul or any kind of consciousness transference after death.

Sure, my self might get merged back into the One, but if I can't keep my memories or my personality this is exactly the same thing as death, as far as I'm concerned.

Silversoul said:
I've heard Existentialism described as a sort of atheistic mysticism.


How is existentialism mystic?

lavod said:
Claim that you die and everything left of your being gets eaten by the worms and maggots or consumed in an inferno, and you're deemed a pessimistic ignore-ant.


:thumbup:

lavod said:
These afterlife ideas instill spiritual laziness IMO.


Speaking personally, yes, but nonetheless ideas of the afterlife are very good for controlling followers and amassing more metaphysical power via propagating memetically compelling beliefs.  :cool:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9753743 -

I believe that most descriptions of "the after-life" given through spiritual texts are actually referring to THIS life.

I believe reincarnation to be a poetic description of the natural emotional cycles that we go through, which involves coping with loss and death anxiety on a regular basis. Each time we honestly accept our own death, reincarnation occurs. Just not in a new physical form.

I believe that the afterlife references in spiritual texts are referring to what happens when one frees themselves from this reincarnitive cycle by realizing and transcending the limitations of thinking in a dualistic framework.

The "afterlife" is what happens when we transcend dualistic interpretation of reality--whether that state is sustained upon physical cell death or before, is up to the individual.

(My 2 cents.)

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #9754256 -

I read a Hindu maxim the other day: "Shiva without Shakti is Shava," i.e. "Consciousness without the power of action is a corpse."


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9757630 -

What do you mean by mystical?

In my opinion, if you are a mystic you have and continue to experience your soul or the divine or whatever.

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9757701 -

I think so.

To me its like art. A scientist may see a painting as a collection of molecules on paper with no innate meaning. But you could also see that painting as having deep meaning or as being beautiful. This appreciation of beauty and meaning is the spiritual side of life for me. I think ignoring this side of ourselves would be ignoring huge opportunites for exploration and understanding what it is to be human.

Edited by DimensionX (02/07/09 10:28 PM)

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: DimensionX]
    #9758883 -

DimensionX said:
To me its like art. A scientist may see a painting as a collection of molecules on paper with no innate meaning. But you could also see that painting as having deep meaning or as being beautiful. This appreciation of beauty and meaning is the spiritual side of life for me. I think ignoring this side of ourselves would be ignoring huge opportunites for exploration and understanding what it is to be human. 


Well said. :thumbup:

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #9760087 -

Very well said and I agree.  :thumbup:

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: fazdazzle]
    #9760442 -

fazdazzle said:
What do you mean by mystical?

In my opinion, if you are a mystic you have and continue to experience your soul or the divine or whatever.


Can't one experience a direct connection to the Universe/the One without necessarily mandating an after-life?

Being a mystic, in my mind, requires one to have mystical experiences.  This is hard to define, naturally, but it's still dependent upon a different pattern of neural firing and I frankly don't see a way of having the one without the other.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9760986 -

You say that loosing your personality , or whatever word you used to describe yourself as a unique being , would be an analogy for death or the merging with the all encompassing one.
But.. what if that is who you really are ?
What if this stage your in right now is only a means to an end.
A necessary component for you to learn and study the universe from a unique perspective of being "deCypher"
I agree.. we have brains , and capabilities vary. We also have societal surroundings, parenting , schools etc.
It becomes really hard to define yourself legitimately , or anyone else for that matter.
Do you even know truly who you are?
With all these infinite possibilities and variables.. what are you actually holding on to ?
To a question : Is it possible ?
I say : YES
Everything is possible.

But i say forget the whole afterlife story..
There is no after life.. because life never ends.
If you give life physical properties.. than you can claim it. Therefore it is possible for one to be mystical and not believe in the afterlife.
The question , i believe , is whether he would be right.
I say.. if you still think this is all you got.. this right here..
You need some more work.
Being overwhelmed by the survival instinct and fear from loosing this image of yourself , can only imply regression or stagnation.
This is a hurdle which is very important to jump over in order to comprehend greater teachings IMO.
If somebody provided actual evidence that proves the non-existence of the spirit .. I wouldnt change one bit.
Cause that would only imply that what i believed in was based on a story.. not honest feelings.
It doesnt really matter in the end. I wont go off raping women and killing people just because there is no better purpose.
I suffer when others suffer and therefore i naturally take the position of helping others as i would like to be able to expect the same in return.
Plus.. i think we will soon be introduced to information that validates most of these phenomenon.
The paranormal will become normal , and the "insane" people will lead the "normal" :smile:

:peace:


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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9761450 -

deCypher said:
fazdazzle said:
What do you mean by mystical?

In my opinion, if you are a mystic you have and continue to experience your soul or the divine or whatever.


Can't one experience a direct connection to the Universe/the One without necessarily mandating an after-life?

Being a mystic, in my mind, requires one to have mystical experiences.  This is hard to define, naturally, but it's still dependent upon a different pattern of neural firing and I frankly don't see a way of having the one without the other.

I dont believe there are any rules. Beliefs are just that; beliefs. Ideas and speculations. If being a mystic relies directly on experience, then beliefs are unnecessary.
Belief in the soul or an afterlife isnt imperative to reach the "divine". One directly experience oneness and his connection to the universe without any preconceived speculations.


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Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade :pm:

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Re: Is it possible to be mystical and yet... [Re: deCypher]
    #9762775 -

Sure. It could be like fish jumping out of the water. We may be able to reach "divinity" while human but still die and lose anything resembling consciousness. Chances are, though, if we can reach "divinity" we are "escaping" the human form temporarily, which allows us the prospect of other bodies/forces/energetic collections outside of the physical one, which would be independent of time and therefore death.

I have thought about this before, too...and with the direction fundamental physics is going, it really makes you wonder, but I lean towards mysticism granting the perpetuation of consciousness in some form.

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General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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