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Searching Mexico for shamans
    #9188934 -

Searching Mexico for shamans
November 5, 2008 - CordWeekly.com

Krzysztof Pietroszek, IJ grant recipient, and his translator explore the culture and rituals of shamanic people, which includes their use of peyote

Sierra Madre Occidental, Mexico. Standing in front of ten shotgun-armed Huichol natives with serious faces, I debated if pursuing an investigation into the ancient world of shamanic rituals was worth my life.

Thoughts of paranoia echoed in my head. These circumstances bore quite a resemblance to the tragic events which befell a group of American documentary filmmakers just a few years ago. The journalists, who had fearlessly entered a native village without permission, later found themselves tortured to death. The terrifying footage of this event is available in the BBC archives – because the camera was rolling the entire time.

So there I stood, lost in the desert mountains, wondering if it would be more pleasant to be scalped or to have an axe thrown in my back. Getting shot with a modern weapon was the least probable option. It would be a waste of precious bullets, as I was a much slower runner than the reindeer roasting on the fire nearby.

While shotguns hung loosely on the natives’ backs, I took a step back and attempted to reassure myself.

After all, I was invited here, right? Yes, but on the other hand, I was specifically told not to bring camera equipment. I guess the two fully-loaded mules I brought along looked somewhat suspicious. But that’s why I was there: to document the experience of my investigation of modern shamanistic practice in Mexico.

Having visited Mongolia, India, the Middle East, South America and East Africa already, this time I decided to aim towards Mexico. Among the few native groups who presently cultivate shamanism are Mexican Huichols – a tribe conquered neither by Aztecs nor Spaniards. When National Geographic journalist James Norman wrote an article on the Huichols 31 years ago, he predicted the disappearance of their rituals within the next few decades. Nothing like that has happened yet.

Still, Huichol culture has little presence in the everyday lives of Mexicans. A few days before finding myself in the aforementioned potentially terminal situation, full of doubt, I took to the streets of Guadalajara in search of shamans.

Many cityfolk had never heard about Huichols. Those that had, described them as “drunk, poor natives, who come to sell their craft at a local market.” The natives would visit the market once a month on a Sunday.

A market fruit-seller dismissed the natives as outsiders of society. They speak a different language, wear different clothes – one cannot just go and talk to them.

Finally, in the market, I found a Huichol man who introduced himself as a shaman – although his clothes were not perfectly in accordance to my earlier research regarding shamanic dress. Under the influence of peyote drink – a hallucinogenic drink made of “holy” cacti – he spoke with glazed eyes. Although it was difficult to talk to him, I was able to understand - thanks to my translator - that, three years ago, the Council of Elders had forbidden shamans to share their experiences with outsiders.

But now I knew they existed.

The next day, I interviewed Ramon Mata Torres, professor emeritus at the University of Guadalajara and a distinguished researcher of indigenous shamanism. Most importantly, though, is the fact that he had lived among the Huichol for thirty years and went through four of five levels of shamanic initiation.

What does it mean for him to be a Huichol shaman? “Shaman is a person who sees everything.

Everything...” replied Torres, his eyes widening with the repeated word “everything.” He continued,

“Shaman serves his community as a spiritual guide, a priest of magic, so to say.”

“I have experienced [shamanic magic] myself,” he said, “But I am forbidden to talk about it in detail. Believe me, it is a very intimate and personal thing.”

Communicating with spirits, gods or daemon is done differently in each culture, said Torres.

“Shaman may dance and sing for hours, deprive himself of food, sleep, water, or, very commonly, consume a hallucinogen substance. In the case of the Huichols, the hallucinogen used is the ‘flesh of god,’ called peyote. It is a desert cactus.”

Peyote was popularized in Western culture by Carlos Castaneda, a controversial pseudo-anthropologist, who convinced half of the world that, under peyote influence, he had experienced shamanic visions. He claimed to be guided by the mysterious shaman Don Juan. Castaneda then wrote a bestselling book based on his experience titled Teaching of Don Juan.

“Did you consume peyote yourself, sir?” I asked Torres.

“Of course. This is an integral part of Huichols’ life. Peyote is one of the main Huichol gods. Every member of the community, including children, consumes his body. The interesting thing is that peyote grows only in a desert around Real de Catorce, which is 300 kilometres from the place where Huichols live,” he elaborated.

“Then how do they get it?” I asked, surprised.

“The shaman does a 500 kilometre-long pilgrimage, on foot, every year to get a load of peyote” he replied.

“When he comes back, the Feast of Peyote begins.”

The ritual of peyote is an extremely important part of Huichol shamanic traditions, often portrayed through their unique yarn-painting art. The ritual is a major event in the life of community. Despite the fact that it was unlikely that my participation would be allowed, I still hoped to meet and interview natives, so I left for the Sierra Madre Occidental region.

After two solid days of driving, I found myself lost on a dirt road at midnight.

Stopping the car at the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, I could see nothing in the complete darkness. But the lights of my car were seen by somebody, a friendly road worker, who came by and invited us to sleep in his tent.

One cannot imagine my surprise when I awoke in the morning to find myself in the middle of a Huichol’s farm. Jose, the Huichol farm owner, invited us in for breakfast. I couldn’t resist the opportunity to ask about the ritual of peyote.

Jose told me there was an ongoing family Feast of Peyote that had started the night before; and so I convinced him to let me participate in the rituals. He warned me it may not be an easy experience. I was told the same in an interview with Silvia S., the Director of National Library in Guadalajara a few days earlier.

“The ritual of peyote,” she said, “is often very sexually oriented. After consumption of peyote, the Huichol must go to a fire and confess all [of] his sexual sins. It is common that he admits he had sex with his underage daughter. Then, when everybody gets stoned, the orgy starts. Men are allowed to have sex with any woman in the community and it is not considered adultery.”

Feeling invited, I rented two mules from Jose and walked them a few kilometres north, into a roadless valley. That’s how I found my-self in the specific aforementioned situation. One of the shotgun-armed Huichols shouted something at me, wanting to know what I had to trade.

Of course, I was willing to offer whatever they needed. “Large amounts of anti-scorpion serum” was their answer. Scorpions are the most common cause of children’s deaths, and the closest hospital is too far to get to. Soon we had come to an agreement that I was to persuade the Mexican government to send them the serum. In recognition for that, Huichols would not only let me participate in part of the rituals, but also film it from some non-distracting distance. Most importantly, they promised to let me leave in peace afterwards.

The main part of the rituals started with the first pinkish rays of the sunset. The shaman led a procession of Huichol people into four directions of the world: north, west, south and east. He didn’t seem distracted by the presence of the camera, so I dared to come a little closer.

After the procession, the shaman burned the animal and plant offerings, and then the blessing rite took place. The oldest member of the family, a father and lower-rank shaman, blessed all of his sons by stretching his hands, holding a string and putting it around them.

The peyote drink was constantly being served to everybody, including children. Over time, I could see the characteristic absentmindedness in people’s eyes. Physical reactions slowed down. Some natives began disappearing into the surrounding forest, wide-eyed and afraid.

As the camp eventually drifted to sleep, we suddenly heard long, loud human screams coming from a distance. After each sentence, there was a break as if the person was listening to something. Then, just barely, I heard a man’s voice answering. It seemed to come from very far away – and was almost indistinguishable from the noises of nature. The whole community listened in silence.

I asked the shaman what the noise was. “It is the spirit of my ancestor,” he replied, his face stone-cold serious. In that very moment, lying on the ground in the middle of the holy shamanic ritual place, I was unsure of the borders between the worlds of rationality and dreams. Or maybe it was peyote odour in the air that made me irrational. Seeing my awed expression, the shaman laughed loudly and said: “No, I was joking. It’s just a member of our community, who got lost in the dark, and was asking for directions.”

I laughed at myself realizing to what extent I was taken by the mystery. Soon I realized that what had happened to me was proof that shamanism is alive – because in even the most rational mind, the potential for mystical experience stays hidden.

Shamanism culture survived in the corners of subconsciousness of every one of us. When we hesitate for a second while deciding whether or not to cross the street after a black cat has passed. When we irrationally fear going into a basement at midnight if there is no light on. Or when we, like me in that moment, are ready to forget any rational explanation and believe that spirits talk in the forests – just after a few hours of shamanic rituals.

Two days later, I left the shamanic village, holding unique documentary material and an invitation to come again whenever I wished. I am currently organizing a shipment of a large amount of Alacramyn anti-venom as well as a solar-powered refrigerator for the community of Huichols – because I gave my word. And because I don’t want to be chased by the spirit of an angry shaman, whose trust in me was stretched too far.

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: veggie]
    #9189108 -

amazing that he got such an opportunity. the Wixxarika peoples are known to despise and alienate outsiders.


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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9189539 -

anywhere to find this documentary?
or any of his other ones?


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There's just one small problem...


...and it's a big one!


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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: AtticusProphet]
    #9192507 -

I hope that this very interesting story does not inspire any reader to try and do the same. These people are maintaining a tradition that is most definitely at least over 5,000 years old...and various gringos and shaman wannabes looking to have a spiritual experience at the expense of their heritage and community is fucking ridiculous. I have been studying Huichol religion and culture for the last year or so and I would love to make a pilgrimage with them to Wirikuta. But I would never think of actually doing it. And don't go eat their fucking peyote either. Now if you are related to a Huichol...well...lucky you. If not...just settle for buying some art. It is beautiful.


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Om Gam Ganapataye Namah

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: kcobra15]
    #9192649 -

Yeah considering the fact that a button can take 5-15 years to mature, I'd be pretty angry too. And the fact that peyote is considered a god to the huichol. Unfortunately for me actual cherokee shamans are extreamely rare to come across. I had one shaman who was very highly respected by my mother's mentor and a owner of a local metaphysical store that was availible but I am far too young (18). I was sort of sad that I didn't have the oppertunaty but also respected her for her decision because I would learn more as I get older from this woman since I'm still very ego oriented like any other young adult would.


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:awesome: :flyhigh: :amanitajar: :getstoned: :bigkiss2:  :mushroomgrow:  :smirk:  :cloud9: :vaped:

Caution: All information on this post or from this account are fictional and images are for entertainment purposes only. I do not condone the use, sale, manufacture or distributation of controlled substances in any country.

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: TsalagiSpirit]
    #9194590 -

Quote:
Two days later, I left the shamanic village, holding unique documentary material and an invitation to come again whenever I wished. I am currently organizing a shipment of a large amount of Alacramyn anti-venom as well as a solar-powered refrigerator for the community of Huichols – because I gave my word. And because I don’t want to be chased by the spirit of an angry shaman, whose trust in me was stretched too far.



You guys are talking about these natives like they're unapproachable by just anyone, but this is written as though their "god" was sold for the supplies.

The comedy of it is that an all-seeing shaman ought to be able to create materializations, or at least find what he needs.

The assumption is that the plants, however old they are, occur spontaneously, at the will of the gods.

The plants are supposed to appear in response to the expectation of the hunt.

Ergo, the gods are rewarding expectation with communion.

Yet, the plants so rare that they are regarded with greed.

Edited by durian_2008 (11/06/08 10:50 AM)

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: durian_2008]
    #9194901 -

they do not assume that the plants occur spontaneously. When they harvest them they do so with the utmost care (digging down a little and chopping them leaving the root) so that they will grow back for future pilgrimages. They understand botany...they are experts in it. If you want  to go to Mexico and eat some peyote you should be able to find some for sale at a rural street market. Huichols even sell them at street markets to other tribes in that area that use peyote but do not make the pilgrimage to harvest it (the Cora for example). The gods don't award expectation with communion they award carefully kept tradition and preservation with communion. If the Huichol council banned sharing these traditions with outsiders then their wishes and above all the preservation of their culture should be respected.


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Om Gam Ganapataye Namah

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: kcobra15]
    #9195026 -

these people need to preserve their culture, which has survived only through isolation. its best that they be left alone.


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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9196621 -

I think you're willfully disregarding my point, not that I speak for Huichols in particular.

Quote:
If the Huichol council banned sharing these traditions with outsiders...



Clearly they did not, for the source of their culture's inspiration can be sold to outsiders.

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: durian_2008]
    #9197016 -

it's not absurd for people who are as poor as they are to expect a donation of some sort when asked to perform any service(whether religious or otherwise) . that's hardly selling their culture if you ask me, esp if they are just trying to save the lives of a few children with scorpion serum. they live a life where basic survival needs are met only through day to day struggle. Most Wixarika would never consider letting an outsider have their precious sacrament simply because they are offering something in exchange. It's a rare event that someone as foreign to them as the author would get to interact with them, let alone take peyote. its almost unheard of.

there are people like the fake shamans and charlatans in Real who will take you to the peyote for money, and have no respect for the land or indigenous traditions. Most people don't even care for the protection of the species as a whole, and just rip them out of the ground whole.


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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: durian_2008]
    #9197028 -

The source of their culture's inspiration is not their culture. Just because you eat peyote doesn't mean that you commune with the fire god Tatewari or that you understand the nature of Kayumauri. That is something only the Huichol mara'akame can fully understand. You are not Huichol, you did not grow up under the umbrella of their cosmology, so what business is it of yours to intrude upon their religious rituals (I say "yours" figuratively...I assume you haven't tried this yourself). The presence of an outsider that has no background living their way of life, has no knowledge of their mythology, and in essence has no idea what it means to be Huichol no longer has any business involving themselves in Huichol religious life. Anthropologist have already done this, and no one else needs to fuck with them. If you are interested in them...read. If you want to take peyote...fucking buy some, grow some, and take it yourself.


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Om Gam Ganapataye Namah

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: kcobra15]
    #9201099 -

Quote:
to expect a donation



It's well and good for a guest to confer gratuities upon his host, but to expect a donation is to sell something.

I read that it's sold to outsiders in the market, and this seems acceptable.

Why is it acceptable to sell the sacrament?

The flesh of the god, who won't speak to everyone, can be sold to, and consumed by, anyone?

Quote:
Just because you eat peyote doesn't mean that you commune with the fire god Tatewari or that you understand the nature of Kayumauri.



Rather than speaking for the abilities of others, explain to me why you, yourself, do not have the capacity to commune with the deity, if the deity so chooses.

Before the first man consumed the plant so carefully, why did he do so? Was he Huichol?

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: durian_2008]
    #9201597 -

Quote:
I read that it's sold to outsiders in the market, and this seems acceptable.

Why is it acceptable to sell the sacrament?





even the native american church buys their peyote. are you saying that makes it less of a sacrament? to those who don't have the means or the ability to make the pilgrimage to acquire it on their own, they should make some sacrifice to obtain it. more often than not its never for sale at more than a rediculously cheap price. same goes for san pedro cuttings and ayahuasca herbs sold in the shaman markets of peru.


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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: durian_2008]
    #9201728 -

The Huichols have been approached since the dawn of the anthropological age by people who want to sit in on their rituals and learn about peyote and their religion. What they have learned from these encounters is that they can get essential items for their survival in exchange. During and following the 1960s there has been masses of people seeking to join their rituals because they want to take peyote with them. It is much the same with the Mazatec and their mushroom shaman. A bunch of stupid hippies wanting to get fucked up and once they are have little or no respect for Huichol traditions. I am sure respectful serious spiritual seekers also seek the Hucichol...but having grown up within a completely different cosmology...what are they adding to the Huichol sense of community (One of the main purposes of all peyote rituals "to become of one heart as a people")? Look...when in a survival situation there are some people who sell their children as prostitutes, they might sell precious family heirlooms, they might even sell their souls to save the lives of those that they love in their families and communities. So they let this guy sit in on a ritual...and in return they were given something they sorely needed. By allowing him to sit in on the ritual they saved lives...they had to let it happen. it doesn't mean they are open to a bunch of outsiders showing up and trying to join in on their religion.
I think you have some sort of crazy notion that peyote is absolutely everything in Huichol life. Huichol don't just eat any peyote...they eat only peyote from Wirikuta. They don't think that any other peyote is holy. They know that all peyote will give you an experience, they just choose to eat only that which is harvested from the land of their mythical origin...thy reenact the pilgrimage of their gods when they harvest it.
I think you are missing the point entirely...they peyote is sacred only when it is taken in sacred context. They peyote can be shared/sold/whatever...but the rituals in which it is taken is sacred.  The particular place where they harvest it is sacred. Sacred to the HUICHOL!!! So what business does anyone else have within their ritual when they do not even understand the meaning of it (which you can only know through an intimate understanding of their ancient oral mythology and though an understanding of the world you can only gain through living as a Huichol)? When I take mescaline (not the same as peyote but close) I don't see the Huichol gods...I see whatever is present in my life or whatever is a result of the things that are present in my life. When the Hucihols take peyote they see the things that surround their way of life...their gods...their religion. To Sit with them on their ritual and delude their sense of community in essentially deluding their religion.
And the first person who took peyote most likely had a religion of some sort already and when they took it they saw their gods. Over time they have evolved with thousands of year of use. To me you sound like you are speaking off the top of your head about a subject which you are uneducated about. I suggest maybe you read some books...try Peyote Huntby Barbarra Myerhoff. That will at least give you an idea of what Huichol consider peyote to be and why it is so important in a RITUAL CONTEXT. If the Huichol felt like spreading their way of life around they would not be greeting outsiders with shotguns..think about it.


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Om Gam Ganapataye Namah

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: kcobra15]
    #9202889 -

Quote:
even the native american church buys their peyote. are you saying that makes it less of a sacrament?



I'm going to use some Catholic words, but I'm not a Catholic.

If I am to believe the doctrine of transubstantiation, which is to say that the eucharist is the flesh of Christ, no sense of physical need could provoke me to sell it.

This is the flesh of a god, which I assume confers some sort of providence on them?

Quote:
Why is it acceptable to sell the sacrament?



Quote:
they should make some sacrifice to obtain it.



On what religious basis do you believe that the sacrifice is always required of the worshipper?

Quote:
To me you sound like you are speaking off the top of your head about a subject which you are uneducated about.



My questions were not answered.

Forgetting about any source of mescaline, whatsoever, why do you, yourself, not have the ability to commune with the deity, if he so chooses?

Why did the first person to consume peyote do so?

Quote:
If the Huichol felt like spreading their way of life around they would not be greeting outsiders with shotguns..think about it.



When I saw Daniel Boone doing it on TV, the context did not seem threatening to me in particular.

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: durian_2008]
    #9204525 -

1. if you were to eat the same type of cracker that they use during communion...but it wasn't eaten in the context of holy communion...would it still be considered sacrament? No. It is the ritual that makes the cracker take on the symbolic representation of the body of christ...not the cracker itself. They sell the fucking crackers in the grocery store.

2. you can go to a church...walk up...drink their wine and eat their cracker...but unless you are a believer in christ, and take these as sacraments representing the blood and body of christ who died for your sins, you are taking it out of context and you are deluding their ritual. If fact a priest would rather forbid you to take communion unless you were a believer. I seriously doubt (actually I know) the Huichols aren't accepting new members to their religion...unless you are a Huichol. In fact their religion is their identity...something you don't have unless you are born with it.

3. The whole sacrifice/worshiper comment is taken out of context. It sounds like you are trying to wax philosophical bullshit...but its not working. You didn't harvest it...which took time effort and money.  You should be compensated for that. Peyote that is sold doesn't have to and most often does not come from Wirikuta. Only if you get it from a Huichol.

4. Whatever I see when I am on mescaline comes from the context of my own life. It doesn't come from the context of one who was raised Huichol. I commune with the personality of mescaline in my own way, not in the Huichol way. Why then would I impose myself upon their way of life, their rituals, their religion. I can simply take peyote and enjoy it my own context, just as I would in their presence, but without imposing myself upon their way of life...being an outsider in their rituals that are specifically intent upon creating a sense of community.

5. The first person who ingested peyote probably did it on accident...this is obvious.

6. The Huichol are well known to be resistant to visitors in their indigenous communities. They are trying to preserve their way of life.  Thats just the way it is man...get over it.


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Om Gam Ganapataye Namah

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: kcobra15]
    #9206135 -

kcobra15 said:
They are trying to preserve their way of life.  Thats just the way it is man...get over it.



:werd: i agree man, their wishes should be respected. in a world with so many indigenous ways being lost or swallowed up by rabid modern materialism its vital to preserve as much as we can. leave the Wixxarika alone.


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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9206455 -

Quote:
get over it.



I'm not demanding any thing from any one. Neither am I invested in this, emotionally, or in any other way.

I'm just asking you to clarify your opinion(s) in the name of conversation, and offering mine.

I don't require you to assimilate my opinions in any way.

Hierarchically speaking, I believe there is philosophical value in determining whether access to a deity can be sold by human authorities. This reveals the nature of their relationship to one another.

I am not attempting to control said relationship in any way.

Quote:
if you were to eat the same type of cracker that they use during communion...but it wasn't eaten in the context of holy communion...



We know crackers from church are always communion wafers.

Is peyote from the special gathering ground ALWAYS understood to be the flesh of their god?

Or, does the process of gathering sanctify the plant?

Do you believe that human sacrifice, in terms of money, supplies, or strenuous ritual observance, sanctifies the plant?

Quote:
an outsider that has no background living their way of life, has no knowledge of their mythology, and in essence has no idea what it means



Quote:
it is so important in a RITUAL CONTEXT.



Quote:
peyote is sacred only when it is taken in sacred context.



Quote:
4. Whatever I see when I am on mescaline comes from the context of my own life.



Are you saying that the plant does NOT give you access to any objective information, which exists independently of the user?

Also, do you personally believe in the objective reality of Huichol gods?

Do you believe that information gained in mescaline-induced visions is of direct, material consequence to non-believers?

Similarly speaking, do Huichol believe they have power over non-Huichol? Why, or why not?

Edited by durian_2008 (11/08/08 10:50 AM)

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: durian_2008]
    #9207056 -

when I say "get over it" I am simply saying that it is documented that the Huichol are resistant to outsiders wandering in to their communities.  To argue against that point is moot. This guy was lucky...probably came at a time when scorpion antitvenom was sorely needed.
In order to answer your questions about the specifics of which peyote is holy and which is not would require from me a more intimate understanding of Huichol culture. I have studied quite a bit, read a number of books, and written a fair amount about their rituals of pilgrimage, their mythology, and their shaman, but in order to get into the specifics of the religion I would have to ask a mara'akame. I am not one. I can tell you that peyote from Wirikuta is considered to be the tracks of the deer god kayumauri...he was hunted by the ancestors to the land of wirikuta, killed, and from his body sprang the peyote. He is considered the messenger of the shaman god tatewari...he carries his message from the god to the shaman. I can tell you that without a much more detailed understanding of this mythology (which is unbelievably complicated) taking peyote in the in any Huichol ceremony would not produce the same results since you do not have intimate knowledge of Huichol cosmology. You would be an outsider is a ritual that is meant to form a sense of community for Huichols. For instance, on pilgrimage, you would be given the name of a god. It would be your duty on the pilgrimage to fulfill the role of this deity, but how could you do this without an intimate knowledge of the mythology of this deity. You would not be a full participant and therefore delude the ritual.

I personally believe that mescaline does give you access to information that is outside of yourself. However, especially with a psychedelic, you have to realize that no information is truly objective. Because you exist in this reality as an individual you come into any experience with your own unique point of view, and this point of view is based on the context of your life. Without a person to take the mescaline, the mescaline experience would not exist. If I take peyote as a 25 year old college student I will have a different experience than a 55 year old retired construction worker, or a 40 year old working mother, or a budding Huichol shaman on pilgrimage. Do I beleive in the objective reality of Huichol gods? No. It is not part of the context of my life...I wasn't raised to see them acting in my every day life. That is why I believe that I have every right to consume peyote in my own context, but to try to force myself into theirs just because I want to see what it is like is being selfish and taking away from a traditional system that they have been preserving for thousands of years.

As far as your other questions..I don't know. Once again I am not a Huichol. The question asking if the Huichol believe they have power over non-Huichol seems irrelevant. My point in all of this I think has been thoroughly made. You just seem to be asking questions...trying to get somewhere but not summing it up. So I have a question for you...where are you going with this? Are you trying to argue that intruding upon Huichol traditions is ok? Or that a person can somehow convert to Huichol religion? Is this simply about how the Huichol conclude that it is ok to sell sacrament to other tribes?


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Om Gam Ganapataye Namah

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Re: Searching Mexico for shamans [Re: kcobra15]
    #9211144 -

Quote:
You just seem to be asking questions...trying to get somewhere



Upon entering this discussion, I revealed my inner opinion of this subject matter, immediately. In reaching my opinion, I tried to make my thought process as apparent as possible, not that I demand of anyone that they honor my opinion. Neither do I present myself as an authority on the issue.

No tricks here.

Quote:
when I say "get over it" I am simply saying that it is documented that the Huichol are resistant to outsiders wandering in to their communities.  To argue against that point is moot.



As an outsider, I wouldn't claim to be an expert on Huichol etiquette.

Quote:
For instance, on pilgrimage, you would be given the name of a god. It would be your duty on the pilgrimage to fulfill the role of this deity, but how could you do this without an intimate knowledge of the mythology of this deity.



Sounds reasonable to me.

Is the deity able to communicate with you, personally, even as an outsider?

What if you consumed Wirikuta peyote?

Quote:
The question asking if the Huichol believe they have power over non-Huichol seems irrelevant.



You seem to be telling me that they control access to their religion, under pain of death.

Call it speaking off the top of my head if you like.

Privacy is enforced materially.

The role play is acted-out materially.

The fixtures of this religion can be traded for materials.

What I gather from these few paragraphs you have written is that Huichol religion has serious material consequences, even for outsiders.

Quote:
I personally believe that mescaline does give you access to information that is outside of yourself. However, especially with a psychedelic, you have to realize that no information is truly objective.



Of course, I was speaking in relation to the physical plane.

You have written about the topic extensively.

Do you believe that a person under the influence of a Huichol deity is capable of creating specific, predictable changes in the material universe?

Besides that he may be playing the role, are you aware of any incontrovertable, physical manifestations, which show that a person is under the influence of a Huichol deity?

Does the deity leave any tangible, unique, calling cards?

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