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Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy'
    #6702626 -

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A controversial new classification system proposed by leading scientists ranks alcohol as more dangerous than ecstasy. The system, published in The Lancet medical journal, suggests that drugs should be classified based on the amount of harm they cause, rather than the current A, B, and C divisions. The authors argue that the current classification system is ill-defined, opaque, and overestimates the risks of ecstasy while neglecting the risks associated with alcohol. The new system would place alcohol and tobacco in the upper half of the league table, more harmful than cannabis and substantially more dangerous than ecstasy. The team identified three main factors that determine the harm associated with any drug of potential abuse: physical harm to the user, the tendency to induce dependence and addiction, and the effect of drug use on families, communities, and society.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?xml=/connected/2007/03/23/nalcohol123.xml

Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy'


Alcohol is ranked much more harmful than the Class A drug ecstasy in a controversial new classification system proposed by a team of leading scientists.

The table, published today in The Lancet medical journal, was drawn up by a team of highly respected experts led by Professor David Nutt, from the University of Bristol, and Professor Colin Blakemore, chief executive of the Medical Research Council.

The authors proposes that drugs should be classified by the amount of harm that they do, rather than the sharp A, B, and C divisions in the UK Misuse of Drugs Act.

They say the basis of the Act is ill-defined, opaque, and seemingly arbitrary and overestimates the risks of ecstasy, which kills around ten people annually of the half a million people who use it every weekend, while neglecting those of alcohol, a legal substance which kills more than 300 annually by acute poisoning, and many tens of thousands by road traffic accidents, cirrhosis, gut and heart disease.

In the paper, the team argues that it would make much more sense for drugs to be reclassified on a rational basis that can be updated as new evidence emerges, and more easily than the current rigid category system now in use.

Prof Blakemore added that policies of the past four decades “clearly have not worked”, given the ubiquity and low price of illegal drugs, and that fresh thinking is now required.

Today’s call to overhaul the UK drug classification system, which will be examined by the forthcoming UK Drug Policy Commission, is likely to receive popular public support, according to research into attitudes to drugs by the Academy of Medical Sciences’ DrugsFutures project.

Harmful drugs are currently regulated according to classification systems that purport to relate to the harms and risks of each drug.

However, “these are generally neither specified nor transparent, which reduces confidence in their accuracy and undermines health education messages,” said Prof Blakemore.

“The most striking observation is that there is no statistical correlation between this ranking of harm of drugs and the ABC classification.”

In the new system legal drugs, such as alcohol and nicotine, are ranked alongside illegal drugs.

The new ranking places alcohol and tobacco in the upper half of the league table. These socially accepted drugs were judged more harmful than cannabis, and substantially more dangerous than the Class A drugs LSD, 4-methylthioamphetamine and ecstasy.

“Alcohol is not far behind demonised terrors of the street such as heroin and cocaine,” said Prof Blakemore.

But the conclusions are likely to be ignored, according to coauthor Prof David Nutt from the University of Bristol, who has worked with the Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs.

Because some individuals with a particularly genetic make-up are at greater risk, as has been seen with rare deaths connected with ecstasy, ministers have been reluctant to change classifications despite the relative safety for the rest of the population.

Several millennia of human experience with alcohol, its pervasiveness in industrialised cultures, and the US experience with alcohol prohibition (1920–32) make it unlikely that any industrialised society will criminalise alcohol use, he said.

But that still leaves taxation and regulation as methods of control. “Alcohol is a drug we should take very seriously.”

The team identified three main factors that together determine the harm associated with any drug of potential abuse: the physical harm to the individual user caused by the drug; the tendency of the drug to induce dependence and addiction; the effect of drug use on families, communities, and society

Within each of these categories, they recognized three components, leading to a comprehensive “matrix of harm”.

Expert panels gave scores, from zero to three, for each category of harm for 20 different drugs.

All the scores for each drug were combined to produce an overall estimate of its harm. In order to provide familiar benchmarks, for comparison with illicit drugs, five legal drugs of potential misuse (alcohol, khat, solvents, alkyl nitrites, and tobacco) and one that has since been classified (ketamine) were included in the assessment. The process proved simple, and yielded roughly similar scores for drug harm when used by two separate groups of experts, one of consultant psychiatrists who were on the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ register as specialists in addiction and the second including a range of expertise, from police chief constables to scientists. “The two show very good agreement,” said Prof Nutt.

Cannabis, the subject of much recent debate, was ranked below tobacco, despite the evidence for a link with psychotic episodes in about 7% of schizophrenics. Since the expert panels were asked to assess the harm of drugs in the form that they are currently used, this ranking took account of the widespread use of skunk, which is about twice as potent than traditional cannabis resin.

Other experts still doubt there is a cause and effect relationship between cannabis and psychosis, while a study that claimed genes place some people at particular risk requires confirmation.

Prof Nutt said that young people believe that the establishment lies and distorts the dangers posed by drugs and the only way to restore their confidence is to rely on hard evidence, not arbitrary classifications.

“It is a landmark paper, a real step towards evidence based classification,” commented Prof Leslie Iversen of the University of Oxford, a member of a working group of the Academy of Medical Sciences, though he added that there is still more to be done to take on board new understanding of addiction arising from neuroscience.

The Academy has been asked by the Government to undertake an independent review of the issues raised in the Foresight report ‘DrugsFutures 2025?’ The review will take on board the opinions of many hundreds of people from across the UK who have taken part in face to face discussions and an online debate at www.drugsfutures.org.uk, which is open until end of this month.

Participants are clear that the current classification of drugs is “confusing and inconsistent”. A majority of participants support a health-based approach to drug use and treatment, rather than a law enforcement approach. Many also point out that alcohol is one of the most harmful drugs in common use, to both individuals and wider society.

There appears to be little support for decriminalising drugs however. Professor Sir Gabriel Horn, Chair of the Academy of Medical Sciences group considering the findings of the DrugsFutures project said “The UK Government have asked us to explore the likely future impact of recent developments in science on addiction, drug use and treatments for mental health. We have heard views from both members of the scientific community and of the public which indicate that the current classification system is in need of review.

“Such a review must be underpinned by evidence on the harms of drug use to the individual user, to families and to society, and be considered in the light of the latest evidence from the brain sciences.”

Drug misuse is one of the major social, legal, and public-health challenges in the modern world.

In the UK, the total burden of drug misuse, in terms of health, social, and crime-related costs, has been estimated to be between £10 billion and £16 billion per year.



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" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "

..............

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Schwip]
    #6702801 -

Ecstacy safer than Cannabis?...Interesting I would not have thought that cannabis would have been that high in the ranking. What are solvents? Like huffing solvents? I don't know what 4-MTA is either. Alkyl nitrates is n20?

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: AKSE]
    #6703174 -

Yeah, there's no way ecstacy is safer than marijuana or LSD. I think this team of "highly respected experts" might just have a thing for ol' molly.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Viveka]
    #6703247 -

I mentioned it in a different thread, but when they ranked the "harmfulness" of drugs, they included things other than the physical safety of a drug.

They used 9 different criteria broken grouped into 3 main categories:

1. Physical Harm
2. Dependence
3. Social Harms


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: badchad]
    #6703405 -

Solvents that low? are you joking? solvent's are SOO bad for you.


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"And the alien anthropologists, after exhausting all possible explanations for the demise of the human race, were forced to settle on the only reason left: This species has amused itself to death."
-Roger Waters

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: dcstar500]
    #6703651 -

it seems like part of this study has to do with what you are doing while on the substance not what the substance does to you...


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"Its A circular vortex..."

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Varman]
    #6705412 -

A few things:

Quote:
But the conclusions are likely to be ignored, according to coauthor Prof David Nutt from the University of Bristol, who has worked with the Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs.



Which it has, this has already been rejected by the home office, this is not about public safety.

Quote:
Several millennia of human experience with alcohol, its pervasiveness in industrialised cultures, and the US experience with alcohol prohibition (1920–32) make it unlikely that any industrialised society will criminalise alcohol use, he said.




Fucking right it won't, but our goverment are too stupid to see in real terms of harm done.

and

Quote:
Alkyl nitrates is n20?



No, n20 is n20. Chemically related but not the same. Alkyl Nitrates are poppers, also varying as Amyl, Butyl and Iso-Butyl Nitrate.

Quote:
Yeah, there's no way ecstacy is safer than marijuana or LSD. I think this team of "highly respected experts" might just have a thing for ol' molly.



Maybe not to you but on paper it follows suit because it's not just the physical harm of the drug they are looking at, that and everyone knows that LSD makes you want to fly and smoking weed turns you into a crazed axe murderer ready to kill or rape at "the whim of a hat", jk.

Quote:
it seems like part of this study has to do with what you are doing while on the substance not what the substance does to you...




Sure it is, doesn't that make sense to you? Drugs like Heroin, coke, crack and meth are only so much of a problem because a large portion of it's users resort to crime to feed their habit when unable to support themselves in society. There aren't many stoners who break into houses or steal shit to buy weed. Also binge drinking is a huge problem in the UK and it's heavily related to police call outs and arrests at the weekends, hence it falls just below street methadone in this list.


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"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: j3ckyl]
    #6706294 -

I realize there's a large set of criteria for determining the placement.

But does anyone care to convince me that solvents don't belong at the top of the list? (Or, if you please... at least somewhere much higher).


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You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6706336 -

Koala Koolio said:
But does anyone care to convince me that solvents don't belong at the top of the list? (Or, if you please... at least somewhere much higher).



To play Devils advocate, when looking at the table for the ranking of the drugs in the particular category"

Solvents scored nearly zero in physical dependence
They scored low on psychological dependence.

They are not injectable, which lowered their score in "physical harm". In turn, you don't have the disease and HIV associated with needle use, which lowered their scores in "health care costs" and "social harm".

I wish the report went into more detailed discussion about the scoring of each drug, but their rationale isn't provided.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6706444 -

Im with you man, it seems to me that solvents should be higher but when you think about it there are many factors contributing to the low score. As well as the low amount of dependant users and everything badchad said, it seems they may have slipped in the netting a little. I don't think risk of instantaneous death was taken into consideration or they would have been higher. I don't think this policy would be perfect, we're a long way off from that, but it's a start. Since solvents aren't as much of a problem here as heroin is they probably didn't give it an in depth thought. Though, from what I recall the UK has the highest in the EU right now with 15% of 15-16 yr olds in mainland UK and 22% in Ireland having tried them. I don't see the point of solvents, but i'm happy with the other psychedelic fruit of nature. Either way it's a moot point, the study was rejected by the Home Office.


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"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: badchad]
    #6706453 -

Albert Hoffman was correct. "Nothing compares to a man in the depts of an ether bing."

Ether being the base consumable alcohol for booze.

Something I have been thinking too myself for all those boozers whose naysaying all illegal drugs in the you es of eh.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: DayShroomer]
    #6706517 -

I assume this list took into account popularity of the drug..(how common its use is)

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Boom]
    #6709061 -

Why is cannabis above LSD someone asked?

I assume (the ass out of you and me thing goes here) weed can cause cancer, with all other smokable substances? Also people go to work high a lot, social problems. And people tend to use weed very often, some people several times a day. And after a user stops heavy use, there is a withdrawal for a little while, causing slight depression.

While, LSD, causes no real physical damage. Death by overdose is relatively hard. There is a tolerance to use, and is rarely done more than once a week, by most people.

And I've had 2 experience with marijuana, which I was dead for a few minutes. (my heart stopped beating, lost all muscle control, lost all senses except hearing) Scariest experience anyone can have, dying.


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Junkies United we stand , Devided we're sick as fuck.
-                  -                -
"Hallucinations are something heroin users are not at all accustomed to," said Const. Conor King, Victoria police drug expert. "They react like you or I would react if we took Aspirin and all of a sudden the TV got up and started walking across the room."
-                  -                -
Make drugs legal, or alcohol and tobacco illegal. Either way it's more fair.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: MustNotBe]
    #6710398 -

MustNotBe said:
And I've had 2 experience with marijuana, which I was dead for a few minutes. (my heart stopped beating, lost all muscle control, lost all senses except hearing) Scariest experience anyone can have, dying.



You were dead? Somehow I doubt that. Cannabis ODs are not at all pleasant, but I doubt they are anything at all like near-death / death.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Ojom]
    #6710865 -

If I were to smoke a big bong of cannabis I would probably get a heart attack.
For some people cannabis isn't a benign drug.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Asante]
    #6711169 -

I'm no expert, but can't you get pretty serious brain damage from not breahing/heart beat for a few minutes (especially multiple times)?


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You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Viveka]
    #7978894 -

Viveka said:
Yeah, there's no way ecstacy is safer than marijuana or LSD. I think this team of "highly respected experts" might just have a thing for ol' molly.



Why is that so hard to believe? Remember, Cannabis is normally, smoked. Smoking delivers carcinogens into your body, not just smoking cigarettes. I don't see why LSD is more dangerous than ecstasy, but pure ecstasy is about the most harmless illicit drug out there.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Schwip]
    #7980191 -

Thanks for the info. When I read this article, the thing that struck me was the Professor's statement:

"There appears to be little support for decriminalising drugs however. Professor Sir Gabriel Horn, Chair of the Academy of Medical Sciences group considering the findings of the DrugsFutures project said “The UK Government have asked us to explore the likely future impact of recent developments in science on addiction, drug use and treatments for mental health. We have heard views from both members of the scientific community and of the public which indicate that the current classification system is in need of review."

You can almost see it coming...raise alcohol and tobacco up the evil scale in order to create a huge market for the new "addiction blocking" injections and medications that are getting ready for release. Demonize alcohol and tobacco by comparing them to what are considered "hard drugs", and you will have families and friends escorting drinkers and smokers to clinics to get their injections.

I see this as nothing more than a contribution to a grand plan to sell pharmaceuticals.


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It was all so different before everything changed.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' [Re: Seraph in Blue]
    #7981449 -

Quote:
pure ecstasy is about the most harmless illicit drug out there



I disagree strongly. Methylenedioxymethamphetamine is certainly more potentially harmful to the human physiology than marijuana or any of the classic psychadelics.

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Re: Alcohol 'is more dangerous than ecstacy' *DELETED* [Re: Viveka]
    #7981457 -

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



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Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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