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Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary?
    #6373980 -

Some one shared a Buddhists teaching elsewhere that was interesting and I wanted some others views on some questions about it.

Quote:
For self-protection man has created God, on whom he depends for his own protection, safety and security, just as a child depends on its parent. For self-preservation man has conceived the idea of an immortal Soul, which will live eternally. In his ignorance, weakness, fear, and desire, man needs these two things to console himself. Hence he clings to them deeply and fanatically."


I want to focus on the eternal life part of it. My first question is, how does any human know for sure that there isn't consciousness after physical death.  What is this teaching that assumes a final end to consciousness based on?

Next, from everything I have learned about child development, boundaries and limitations are what makes them feel more safe and secure and what you use to console them when they are feeling anxious or prone to anxiety.

That said regarding the scientific research on human psychology, wouldn't the belief that there is a limit to conscious existance be more consoling to a human being?

Consider eternal life for a moment, existing for and within infinity. Contemplate, being conscious for 80 trillion years, and then, multiply that amount of time by another 80 trillion years and that by another 80 trillion and go on for infinity and imagine being consciously aware of existence through it all without end?

Does that thought or not, possibly produce some anxiety, discomfort, and need some consoling?  Is the thought to incomprehensible or overwhelming to handle?

Would putting a beleif on an end to it at some point, limit on it, make it more manageable to handle and easier to comprehend and accept?

If that makes more sense, then the opposite would be true of that Buddhist teaching.

What about the sects of Bhudism that beleive in reincarnation? How does that not qualify as an understanding of an eternal life, of some sorts?

:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6374072 -

this is what ive been saying to the people who continue to use the argument that the idea of an after life is merely based on the fear of death. on mushrooms i had the experience of never ending consciousness and it was one of the scariest experiences ive ever had. imagine being consciouss for ever and ever and not enjoying it but not being able to make it stop in any way? the only way the concept of eternal life is not terrifying is if it is eternal bliss. i know i could have said this better but basically what im saying is there are so many depressed people who want to die (the fact that people commit suicide is proof of this), the idea that you can just die and have all your suffering be over with is very consoling. if you cant just die and dissapear, then you have a real problem. so by this logic it could be said the idea that there is no life after death is simply based on the fear that one might exist beyond this life.

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6374203 -

Quote:
how does any human know for sure that there isn't consciousness after physical death. What is this teaching that assumes a final end to consciousness based on?


The quote to me didn't seem to exclude consiousness, just individual consiousness. I'm pretty sure all buddhists believe that the idea of a 'self' is just an illusion, so there never even was a start to individual consiousness. I.e. man has created it, and then creates the idea that part of their individual selves lives on after the body has expired. The quote to me reads like it's just pointing out that that belief is made out of the fear of individual death~
Quote:
Next, from everything I have learned about child development, boundaries and limitations are what makes them feel more safe and secure and what you use to console them when they are feeling anxious or prone to anxiety.

That said regarding the scientific research on human psychology, wouldn't the belief that there is a limit to conscious existance be more consoling to a human being?

Consider eternal life for a moment, existing for and within infinity. Contemplate, being conscious for 80 trillion years, and then, multiply that amount of time by another 80 trillion years and that by another 80 trillion and go on for infinity and imagine being consciously aware of existence through it all without end?

Does that thought or not, possibly produce some anxiety, discomfort, and need some consoling? Is the thought to incomprehensible or overwhelming to handle?

Would putting a beleif on an end to it at some point, limit on it, make it more manageable to handle and easier to comprehend and accept?



imo the fact that 'you' are never going to expire is much more consoling, as the fear comes from that fact in the first place. also we seem to be taught that any afterlife is a pretty excellent place and is a place to look foward to. i dunno, some people put tons of artificial boundries in place as well to get the security you're hinting on too.


Quote:
What about the sects of Bhudism that beleive in reincarnation? How does that not qualify as an understanding of an eternal life, of some sorts?



dont know enough about exactly what these guys believe but my gut says the reincarnation they believe in isn't personal or individual in nature~

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6374221 -

Good questions.

1) IMO no one knows if consciousness continues after death. We take our best guess here and hopefully the one that facilitates our growth as fully human and maximizes our experience here.

2)Boundaries are what makes us (feel) secure and exploration and pushing boundaries is what makes us grow.

My belief is that death anxiety is at the root. Dealing with death anxiety is either skillful or unskillful. One way challenges us to continued evolution of awareness and potential and the other keeps on at the animal level of awareness. Neither is right or wrong.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: Icelander]
    #6374356 -

good musing.... the 90 trillion times 80 trillion years spent in either heaven or hell aspect as a method of control makes some more sense now......

way to take people's for of mortality AND the unknown and create an inescapable fear mechanism deep inside them.

it could be true though :x

for Buddhists eternal life is so different, because its split into the egos view of time, and 21 years have just gone by like that for me, so generally 100 years isn't that "long" to live.... then you do it again, but you aren't aware of your past existence and your reference point for the passage of time is rooted heavily in the ego, such that you rarely pay attention to the vastness of time and are simply aging like a sleeping ant or something.

now for realization of nirvana, it is the ability to accurately assess the eternity OF time and OF consciousness from the perspective of an idividual ego unit. done this way you still live out lives (assuming you choose to be a Boddhisattva and DELIBERATELY reincarnate in order to each) but you live out lives from a vantage of the eternal, with direct access to that which is beyond all form.

the other approach is to experience the formless, not with form (various human/God/animal/etc bodies [i don't know if Boddhisattvas would become animals?]) but with the formless as well, to dissolving into the clear white light and never return....

and i'm not sure what that is like, but you are aware that you are clear white light.

Generally it is that the clear white light is experienced directly from a human body, it purifies the human mind completely (or rather by purifying the human mind completely it accesses this state which many call "God") and then it goes on living in the realm of samsara in order to save other human beings, YET its subjective experience of reality is that of nirvana, no suffering, ultimate bliss, rather than samsara.

then there are the pure lands created by various Buddhas in which the Buddhas themselves dwell so that they can exist in a world of form while still having access to nirvana.... these places are temporary for non-Buddhas but are the equivalent of "Heavens" to christians... places you go by having a faith in a deity, in order that you may learn and purify yourself.... though..... the Christians think the stay in an actual heavenly realm is forever [contradictory to gnostic understandings of Christ trying to show us heaven is on earth]

to the Buddhists you would attain very high realizations and teachings in the pure lands but then move onward to teach others throughout the various realms while vastly attaining enlightenment.

-my understandings

generally perhaps samsaric existence is the hiding from eteranlity, because we go into clear light (sometimes) when we die but defilements and cravings cause us to seek out the world of forms and rebirth.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: Icelander]
    #6374388 -

Okay diggs and Ice. Lets run with the fear of ego death being at the root of all beliefs in an eternal life or fear of mortality.

I'm, aware of 3 schools of thought right now from those who believe in an eternal life.

1) consciousness merges back into a one and no sense of individuation or separation is experienced anymore. There is just awareness without even knowing there is a self being aware.

Those types, obviously don't believe in it because they fear ego death.

2) Some believe in reincarnation. With that, the ego identity keeps changing. In one life , poor, rich, female, male, a horse, a tree, fat. skinny. With the reincarnation believers, a memory of ones individuated journey through forms keeps stored somewhere, yet the ego identity itself continues to be completely broken down at death, forgotten with a rebirth, and a new one built and added to the memory matrix of the soul of what can be.

These people are facing ego death of the life they now know as well, so, its not the case for a belief in eternal life either.

If you are Micheal Jordan, Micheal Jordan dies with the body and so does all of the adoration, money and fame. In a next life, he could be a a paraplegic female born to a poor family in India and die at age 9. The one after that, he may want to take on the consciousness of a new star in the cosmos being born, or a palm tree. :shrug:

They embrace ego deaths and rebirths.

3) There are those who believe, they go on into the arms of God as Joe Smith for ever, being rewarded for a life of servitude to God or end up into the fires of hell, as Joe smith forever being punished for il deeds and acts.

Group 3 qualifies for those who may believe in an eternal life with a root of fear in ego death being a cause. There beliefs keep the one identity they know themselves to be in this one life, in tact in the after life forever on.

Just wanted to throw this into the mix, to say, that not all people who believe in eternal life, believe the ego goes with them forever.

:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6374424 -

Just wanted to throw this into the mix, to say, that not all people who believe in eternal life, believe the ego goes with them forever.

yeah, beliefs run the gamut, dammit. :grin:

Cool crystals and moon sig. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/15/06 04:56 PM)

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6374442 -

You know, I just typed out a rather lengthy response to your post, but screw it. This is all metaphysical and cosmological guessing. I don't know what the hell is going to happen, nor does it particularly bother me. The most important thing in all of infinity is right here, right now: this moment!

I don't know about God. I don't know about eternity. I don't know about infinity. I'm not all that concerned with any of that either.

As far as reincarnation and Buddhists who subscribe to that doctrine go...well, old man Shakyamuni never taught that. He taught rebirth. To me, that means that every single moment, everything is born and dies, then is reborn, moment by moment. Each moment dies, only to be reborn as the very next moment. As RGV put it, each moment is like a snowflake, completely unique.

If you want to argue in favor of human reincarnation, then one should look at it logically. Here's a blurb from a book by Steve Hagen:

Quote:
An ancient Hindu idea was that if you're really good, you can come back as a god. Many people - including many Buddhists - believe that if you're pretty good, but not top-notch, you can come back as a human. If not, you might come back as an animal or a plant. And if you've really blown it, you might come back as a mineral of some kind.

What all of these concepts have in common is that they suppose some enduring entity - incarnate, here and now - that persists and, after it dies, disintegrates, only to reemerge as something else again.

But there's a problem here. If it becomes something else, then in what way is it the same? How is it still, in some manner, what it used to be? And if it's not then how is this reincarnation? Indeed, what does the term it even refer to?

We have no idea. How can anything be both what it is AND something else?

Yet many of us persist in believing that there's this aspect of who we are - this soul, this self - that persists and is somehow recaptured or reembodied in future incarnations.

Here is what many people miss (or ignore) about the Buddhadharma: the Buddha himself pointed out that this view is inaccurate and extreme. It's called the eternalistic view - the view that there's an enduring self, a soul, that survives the body and persists in some fashion, perhaps through reincarnation.



--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: Icelander]
    #6374483 -

Thanks! When I came across the one with the moon and the sun I was stunned looking at it. Nature can be so awesomely beautiful sometimes it blows me away. Its a nice reprieve to lay the eyes upon after watching news footage of the destruction in Iraq, or something of that sort.

Glad to know others are enjoying the pics too! :smile:

:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: dblaney]
    #6374518 -

My guess; the Buddha was awake. :thumbup: :laugh:

Good post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: dblaney]
    #6374559 -

:lol: I hear you! I brought it up because people were arguing over something as if they actually know for 100% sure, what happens at death and there after to consciousness. Do we? Until then, beliefs run so different, how can one lump the root cause for them all under one umbrella and still beleive they are so sure about that? Well you can but, you may wrong. :lol:



The bit you quoted about reincarnation, does leave an individualized consciousness existing, YES. For the sake of the fearing ego death argument, it does not keep the ego you worked hard to create in this and may be very attached too in tact. That gets left behind with the body and people who believe in reincarnation know that.

A new argument could be posed that there is a root fear of not being an individual that continues being conscious in relationship to other things, even though it itself keeps changing its own relationship with itself which doesn't remain the same forever.

Maybe those people may fear a loss of individual consciousness, but clearly have no fear of identity change and the growth that comes with reincarnation. It could be argued that, they may not even fear loss of individuation, if it were to come or be, but given a choice, just prefer an existence where self awareness and the ability to relate and reflect remains via keeping individualized in self awareness vs loosing all sense of any self that is even aware.

Thats what I think Markos believes and that to me is as good as lights out forever more death.

The difference between reincarnationist and "one life only in the physical " believers, is that reincarnationsist realize, the impermanence of the ego structures they are born into and further create, break down and recreate while even here. They understand that even the attachment is temporary.  They don;t qualify for fear of ego death, but do qualify MAYBE, for believing in such because of a root fear of individuation loss.

What if they believe because they started to have past life memories?
There is a case of this kid at age 4 who kept telling his parent he use to be a police officer and was married with two kids. They wrote it off as the folly of his imagination for quite a while. He kept insisting and even came to remember the address of the home he grew up in and described it. Finally, the parents looked up that address to prove to him it didn;t even exist, But found it did. They then finally drove him to it to prove the house wasn't what he says he remembers it to be. Not only were many things he described about it still there, but they were invited in by the woman who lived there. The boy saw a photo on the Mantle and said, "Thats me and my wife and kids. " of course the woman was alarmed and explained to him he was mistaken, that her son died in the line of duty as a police officer 15 years ago.

Now, if that kid ends up believing in reincarnation, is it because he fears death of individuated awareness or because, he has some evidence which gives him reason to beleive?

How do we really know what the root cause is of all beleifs people have?

Some may be faith based, others based on subjective evidence and some on objective material evidence, that can't be duplicated, like seeing a frog with five heads, yet, you didn't capture it , to prove it exists for others to beleive you. Doesn't matter if they even do. You know you saw it for yourself and that's enough for you to talk about 5 headed frogs as if, they exist.

:heart:

:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6374563 -

If we go with the metaphor of humans as anxious children, needing the consolation of predictability and outside control of their actions, then religion makes perfect sense as their comfort-of-choice. The "eternal life" aspect of it is not really limitless, boundary-less, but a reassurance that they will not change, and that they will not be forced to deal with the unknown. This reassurance comes complete with a "Daddy" figure who will reward or punish their behavior accordingly.

Skillful parents gradually expand the boundaries and limits they have imposed, moving the "borderline" outward as their child shows maturity, and inward (for more education) when their child shows immaturity. This varies sharply from religion, which (traditionally) seems geared towards keeping adherents forever in spiritual childhood.

The idea that we do not have all the answers, and that (most likely) NO ONE has all the answers, can be terrifying or liberating. IMO it depends on how much responsibility one is willing to take for their own life experience. If we want to remain dependent children, then those who pretend to have all the answers will attract and hold sway over us. If we want to grow up, then we will seldom (if ever) grant power over our spirituality to anyone else.

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: Veritas]
    #6374572 -

Yipee! :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: Veritas]
    #6374692 -

Then another question comes up. What about a final end to consciousness with the decease of the physical body has to do with a fear of dealing with the unknown?

The end is known to them- final death. After that, there is nothing more to have to face. Its over. What is so courageous about facing absolutely nothing, and not even having consciousness anymore with which to face nothing with? Having to face nothing at all requires zero courage.

Take this-

"Ooooh, I have to face absolutely nothing, and won't even know I am facing nothing?"

That sounds scary to you?

Being able to face a fear of the unknown applies to those who do believe in eternal life, but have no idea what they will face when conscious awareness continues without a body and without physicality as we know it.

Maybe you were speaking for the idea that, we just don't know what happens and all else is speculation and assumption. Maybe you are looking for reasons why one would believe to have some idea of what it will be like and can't come up with anything besides "fear of ego death consolation". :shrug:.

If I was hinting at anything with the security blanket, it was a consideration for those who believe, consciousness ends with physical death and treat that belief as an absolute fact. Why cling to that one when we don;t know for sure?

In such a case, such a belief would help someone to make all that is unbearable about their existence here more manageable, if they know without a doubt, that a final end to enduring existence is coming soon enough. Sounds like it could serve as a major blanket of comfort for someone like that to me.

Its just another  consideration, as people who believe that may believe it because there is no convincing evidence to them to suggest anything otherwise. Simple as that and they too have no "root fear", in which case, it would be a fear of eternal existance.

I am not making the same assumption to know why anyone who believes consciousness ends with physical death does either.

These are all things to think about to keep us from coming to harsh and not well thought out judgments about others and their beliefs.

Adults still create security boundaries to sleep well at night. They live in homes with walls and locks on the doors, secure pay checks, own guard dogs and home security systems, buy insurance policies, stock pile guns, secure friends and resources, save for retirement, etc.

Most adults wouldn;t fair well without some anxiety, not knowing where they will be sleeping for the night, where their next meal is coming from, and what dangers lurk in the shadows of the streets at night.

I don't care who you are or what age you are as everyone posting here secures stuff and creates all sorts of boundaries around them for day to day consolation from anxiety.

Why point fingers as if anyone here doesn't do that?

Who is honest and courageous enough to face admitting to that?

The only people who qualify to not have the finger pointed at them are jobless bumbs who have nothing but the clothes on their backs and live in the streets.

Even they don't qualify technically if they are wearing cloths for comfort and to secure their "bodily jewels" from the elements. :lol:

I also wanted to note that there are people who  believe in reincarnation/eternal life who are not affiliated with or practice any religious doctrine.

Some may believe in that and keep living in the now for the now anyway. Some who believe in it believe they will have a choice about what to do next with eternity and don't worry about it until the time comes to make it.

I beleive in it and have no clue as to what I want to next with eternity. 80 trillion years , times 80 trillion yyears, times 80 trillion years. If that is what it is like, its a no wonder we created the mechanics for reincarnation in the physical if thats what we did before the physical was even birthed. How nice to forget for a while and be something that can DIE, again and again and again to break up the monotony of eternity and give all sorts of opportunity to infinite life potential.

:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6374718 -

Who is honest and courageous enough to face admitting to that?

Me. :grin: I create boundaries all the time. Many of them are limits to my experience of fully living and unnecessary for survival although I may think otherwise, and some are physically necessary and seemingly helpful at this time.

I'm not sure I understand everything you said but I believe that fear of nothingness is frightening to any personality structure or ego that is invested in it's continuation. Much of this may be on the subconscious or unconscious level. But I'm not the expert here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: Icelander]
    #6374816 -

Icelander said:
Who is honest and courageous enough to face admitting to that?

Me. :grin: I create boundaries all the time. Many of them are limits to my experience of fully living and unnecessary for survival although I may think otherwise, and some are physically necessary and seemingly helpful at this time.

I'm not sure I understand everything you said but I believe that fear of nothingness is frightening to any personality structure or ego that is invested in it's continuation. Much of this may be on the subconscious or unconscious level. But I'm not the expert here.


Me too so I really don't mind having such a sort of finger pointed my way. I prefer knowing where my next meal and glass of water is coming from then finding myself in the middle of a barren desert. Have no qualms about admitting how finding myself in the middle of never ending sand dunes would be a tad anxiety producing :lol:

About the other part. When you really cognitively think about how rational a fear of facing nothing and not even knowing you are is, it sounds really silly doesn't it? Why would that require courage?

Wouldn't the person who prides themselves on being brave enough to face the final death of consciousness with physical death, have to have a fear about it to feel proud about being able to courageously face it. Wouldn't that fear, be it subconscious or unconscious the fear of ego death?

The courageous are called that not because they resolve the fear, but because, they move forward anyway.

I think that root, if it applies to anyone also applies to anyone who acts like facing the final death of consciousness with physical death is something that requires courage in the first place.

Whats with the tough guy act some people put on about being able to face nothing and not even know they are unless they are hiding a deeply rooted fear of ego loss with the Bravado?

Who walks around needing to say all of the time, "I don't fear death, I am brave, I'm not afraid of nothing." but someone who is really insecure and anxious about it?

It's like that sort of constant talk is a form of self comforting and self consoling when feeling anxious about it. If not, there really is no reason to run around saying it so much is there?

Just a thought, a question to ponder.

It's sort of funny really....all of this! Egos lol!

:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6374890 -

I don't see that facing death with courage is nearly as important as using our impending death as an advisor.

Physical death most likely brings up animal fears (instinctual) but those who are unable to surrender to life and living might just find it hard to surrender to death knowing that they have run out of time. Usually we believe we can afford to put off the things we might do feeling there is time, lots and lots of time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do limits or no ends bring consolation to the madness and weary? [Re: Icelander]
    #6374962 -

Icelander said:
I don't see that facing death with courage is nearly as important as using our impending death as an advisor.

Physical death most likely brings up animal fears (instinctual) but those who are unable to surrender to life and living might just find it hard to surrender to death knowing that they have run out of time. Usually we believe we can afford to put off the things we might do feeling there is time, lots and lots of time.


NICE! :yesnod:


Makes me wonder how a fear of surrendering to life and "being something more then nothing" thread would go. :lol:
:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Happy Halloween from The Shroomery!

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