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OfflineMadtowntripper
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China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month?
    #5903319 - 07/26/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So I was listening to NPR on the radio on the way home, and in the News update they just offhandedly mentioned that a Fusion Reactor in China is set for a test run very soon. They said a succesful test would mean the fusion reactor is ready for operation.

Does anyone know if this is true, or just Communist propoganda? It seems to me that something of this magnitude would call for more than a slight mention in a news story.

Maybe its because information is so scarce? I would think Physorg.com would be all over something like this, but all they have is a short half page blurb here. http://www.physorg.com/news73027374.html

Maybe its becaues this is taking place in China, or is there something I'm missing that makes this not such a big deal at all?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5903543 - 07/26/06 10:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well, there are plenty of fusion reactors allready in existence. I could build a simple fusion reactor for you for under $2,000 if I had the tools on hand.

It wouldn't be headline news unless their scientists actually got it to "break even" and start producing as much energy as it requires to keep running.


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I find your lack of faith disturbing


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OfflineChuangTzu Happy Birthday!
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5903648 - 07/26/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Show me how you plan to do that (blueprints, schematics, parts lists) and I might front you the $2k.  :grin:


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5904063 - 07/27/06 12:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

why are they building a fusion reactor if it uses more energy than it produces???


--------------------
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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5904096 - 07/27/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Research, I suppose. :justdontknow: Maybe someday, they'll perfect one.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5904112 - 07/27/06 01:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yea do explain


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: TheCow]
    #5904126 - 07/27/06 01:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Here's an article from the "Peoples Daily" (!)

It says that if this test is succesful, China will be able to supply INFINITE, clean energy. They claim they can produce from 1 liter of sea water the equivalent of 300 liters of gasoline.

False/True?

http://english.people.com.cn/200601/21/eng20060121_237208.html

Quote:

A full superconducting experimental Tokamak fusion device, which aims to generate infinite, clean nuclear-fusion-based energy, will be built in March or April in Hefei, capital city of east China's Anhui Province.

Experiments with the advanced new device will start in July or August. If the experiments prove successful, China will become the first country in the world to build a full superconducting experimental Tokamak fusion device, nicknamed "artificial sun", experts here said.

The project, dubbed EAST (experimental advanced superconducting Tokamak), is being undertaken by the Hefei-based Institute of Plasma Physics under the Chinese Academy of Sciences. It will require a total investment of nearly 300 million yuan (37 million U.S. dollars), only one fifteenth to one twentieth the cost of similar devices being developed in the other parts of the world.

The new device will be an upgrade of China's first superconducting Tokamak device, dubbed HT-7, which was also built by the plasma physics institute, in partnership with Russia, in the early 1990s. HT-7 made China the fourth country in the world, after Russia, France and Japan, to have such a device.

"The EAST project research results will be significant for the International Thermonuclear Experiment Reactor, or ITER, in terms of basic research both in engineering technology and physics," said Wan Yuanxi, who is in charge of the project.

Wan said ITER will also be a full superconducting experimental Tokamak fusion device with an advanced configuration, but much larger than EAST.

The program, still in its initial stages, involves Russia, Japan, the United States, the European Union, China and the Republic of Korea.

Controlled nuclear fusion is seen as an efficient way for people to generate infinite, clean energy to offset the dearth of fossil fuels such as oil and coal.

Scientists believe that deuterium can be extracted from the sea and an enormous amount of energy can be obtained from a deuterium-tritium fusion reaction under huge temperatures of 100 million degrees Celsius. After nuclear fusion, the deuterium extracted from one liter of sea water will produce energy equivalent to 300 liters of gasoline.

If a device is developed that can withstand temperatures as high as 100 million Celsius degrees and control a deuterium-tritium reaction, it will be as though an "artificial sun" had been created able to supply infinite, clean energy for human beings.




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


Edited by Madtowntripper (07/27/06 01:28 AM)


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5904331 - 07/27/06 03:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Show me how you plan to do that (blueprints, schematics, parts lists) and I might front you the $2k.  :grin:




Well the reactor I was talking about is a Farnsworth Fusor, invented by the same  Farnsworth who invented the cathode ray tube.

It's basically just two concentric spherical grids of electrically conductive material in the center of an evacuated reaction chamber. The two grids are given opposite electrical charges at voltages of over a dozen kilovolts. A vacuum is sustained in the chamber, and fuel is bled in slowly through a bleeder valve.

Particles of the fuel pick up a charge from the outer grid, and are accelerated towards the opposite charge of the inner grid, then pass through it into the center of the spheres, where many of them collide at high speed, thusly fusing together.

They're fairly common, often built out of bell jars and electronics cobbled together from purchased radio shack components and salvaged elements from things such as microwave transformers. I'd imagine that the most expensive part of most homemade units is the vacuum pump, and I'm pretty certain that the one United Nuclear sells for around $300 would be quite sufficient for the task.

I know MIT has some very expensive fusors, but the farnsworth design is pretty primitive and I doubt we'll ever get a farnsworth fusor to break even.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5905002 - 07/27/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'd be willing to dine on a plate of my own shit if doing that enabled Humanity to create a D+D fusion plant TODAY which is way beyond break-even towards energy production.
And in case you're wondering, I probably feel thats as gross as the next guy.

Working D+D fusion reactors would usher in an era beyond anything imaginable.

But! I calculated that the Deuterium in seawater would, in D+D fusion, yield about a barrel of oil's worth (200ltr) of energy per bucket (10ltr) so its D+T fusion they're talking about, at 17+ MeV.

I'm not too keen on D+T fusion because you inevitably need "nuclear power plant" (fission) generated Tritium to make up for neutron breeding losses, which would make use of highly radioactive materials (Deuterium itself isnt radioactive but Tritium is very much so) and generate "hot" nuclear waste.

But if they can get D+T to work, oh wow, I'll raise a glass to that!


--------------------
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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: Asante]
    #5905970 - 07/27/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I'd be willing to dine on a plate of my own shit if doing that enabled Humanity to create a D+D fusion plant TODAY which is way beyond break-even towards energy production.
And in case you're wondering, I probably feel thats as gross as the next guy.

Working D+D fusion reactors would usher in an era beyond anything imaginable.

But! I calculated that the Deuterium in seawater would, in D+D fusion, yield about a barrel of oil's worth (200ltr) of energy per bucket (10ltr) so its D+T fusion they're talking about, at 17+ MeV.

I'm not too keen on D+T fusion because you inevitably need "nuclear power plant" (fission) generated Tritium to make up for neutron breeding losses, which would make use of highly radioactive materials (Deuterium itself isnt radioactive but Tritium is very much so) and generate "hot" nuclear waste.

But if they can get D+T to work, oh wow, I'll raise a glass to that!




Man you're a badass.


--------------------
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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: freddurgan]
    #5906204 - 07/27/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

freddurgan said:
Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I'd be willing to dine on a plate of my own shit if doing that enabled Humanity to create a D+D fusion plant TODAY which is way beyond break-even towards energy production.
And in case you're wondering, I probably feel thats as gross as the next guy.

Working D+D fusion reactors would usher in an era beyond anything imaginable.

But! I calculated that the Deuterium in seawater would, in D+D fusion, yield about a barrel of oil's worth (200ltr) of energy per bucket (10ltr) so its D+T fusion they're talking about, at 17+ MeV.

I'm not too keen on D+T fusion because you inevitably need "nuclear power plant" (fission) generated Tritium to make up for neutron breeding losses, which would make use of highly radioactive materials (Deuterium itself isnt radioactive but Tritium is very much so) and generate "hot" nuclear waste.

But if they can get D+T to work, oh wow, I'll raise a glass to that!




Man you're a badass.




Thats what I was thinkin. Wiccan for president?


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineChuangTzu Happy Birthday!
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: barfightlard]
    #5906328 - 07/27/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I'd be willing to dine on a plate of my own shit




Quote:

bellytard said:
Wiccan for president?




Eating a plate of one's own feces should be a prerequisite for presidency. Without seasonings.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: Asante]
    #5907127 - 07/27/06 10:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I'd be willing to dine on a plate of my own shit if doing that enabled Humanity to create a D+D fusion plant TODAY which is way beyond break-even towards energy production.
And in case you're wondering, I probably feel thats as gross as the next guy.

Working D+D fusion reactors would usher in an era beyond anything imaginable.

But! I calculated that the Deuterium in seawater would, in D+D fusion, yield about a barrel of oil's worth (200ltr) of energy per bucket (10ltr) so its D+T fusion they're talking about, at 17+ MeV.

I'm not too keen on D+T fusion because you inevitably need "nuclear power plant" (fission) generated Tritium to make up for neutron breeding losses, which would make use of highly radioactive materials (Deuterium itself isnt radioactive but Tritium is very much so) and generate "hot" nuclear waste.

But if they can get D+T to work, oh wow, I'll raise a glass to that!




Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't tritium be produced by fusion in a cheap and primitive farnsworth fusor?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5909511 - 07/28/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah the fusor does produce some Tritium (along with some Helium-3...which is a whole other fuel for fusion reactions) but the amount produced is VERY low and there are some very large technical obstacles to being able to capture any of the Tritium created.

The kinetic energy of the Tritium nucleus that is produced is quite high, making it VERY difficult to slow the T nucleus down for capture. What usually happens is the T nucleus embeds itself into the fusor's casing, possibly becoming chemically bound to one or another molecule inside the casing structure.

So the only way I can think of, at the moment, to get the T back out of the fusor would be to disassemble the whole thing and process the casing itself to remove the tritium - that alone would probably take more energy than you would ever get out of the tritium you produced.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: trendal]
    #5909541 - 07/28/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yikes... nevermind that then.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: China's "Artificial Sun" Fusion Reactor--Operational next month? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5909669 - 07/28/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

but can't tritium be produced by fusion in a cheap and primitive farnsworth fusor?




By fusing D+D in quantity?
In that case I'll have my dinner early :crazy:
Alas, if only we could!

for the curious:

The only way to produce Tritium in quantity at the moment is to shoot a neutron into a lithium atom

Li-7 + neutron --> He-4 + T + neutron

As you see you're using the most common isotope of Lithium (cheap) and you get a neutron back which decreases loss of neutrons.

Basically you put Lithium metal powder into containers, then put thise in the reactor of a working uranium fission plant. The neutrons will cause Tritium and Helium to form. After a while you take out the (radioactive) containers and safely open them to get the Tritium out.


for the curious about Fusion energy:

If we can harness fusion for energy production, we will have an almost limitless supply of green energy. Our planet's hydrogen, and that of the gas gianp planets, like Jupiter and Neptune, is absolutely loaded with a fuel that can readibly mined in vast quantities. The energy will be "green" because you will be turning a component of water into energy without almost no lasting radioactivity to speak of. The "radioactive waste" that is produced from the fuel is a very valuable fuel mixture itself (Tritium and Helium-3) so that the basic waste product is common Helium gas.

Fusion can be considered literally an inexhaustible fuel, because the further we move into space, the more fuels we will find: Helium-3 on the Moon and Mars, Deuterium in the Gas Giants. And beyond that... Within 250 lightyears there are 260.000 stars with an unknown number of planets (to live and build) and gas giants (to mine fuel from) which probably are void of life, awaiting our arrival :thumbup:
Beyond fusion we will find more fantastic things, but we won't need an energy-source beyond Fusion energy, to let our trillions of descendands live the good life.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
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