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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Owning others
    #3544669 - 12/26/04 06:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure everyone here would agree that slavery, the ownership of another human being, is wrong. But then what about children? Obviously there are certain responsibilities that come with child-rearing, but isn't it still a form of ownership? And what then about pets? Regardless of how much we may love them, by what right do we claim proprietorship over another's life?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineKenny7822
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Re: Owning others [Re: silversoul7]
    #3544682 - 12/26/04 06:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The difference between kids and slaves is that we don't use kids to do work for us at least I hope people don't. Parents don't really own their kids they are just guiding them in the right direction until they are able to do so themselves.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Owning others [Re: silversoul7]
    #3544692 - 12/26/04 06:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Slave owners don't instruct their slaves to do what they think is best for the slaves. (Most) Parents do.

Pet ownership is a different thing. That depends on how you treat your pet. Do you teach it tricks? Do you give it its meals at set times during the day, or when the pet itself "asks" for it? Can it go wherever it wants in the house?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Owning others [Re: Kenny7822]
    #3544693 - 12/26/04 06:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

But then what about children?

I think another very pertinent question is at what age or more importantly how do we (society) determine when a child becomes an adult.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineKenny7822
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Re: Owning others [Re: cb9fl]
    #3544709 - 12/26/04 06:49 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

A child becomes an adult at age 18.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Owning others [Re: Kenny7822]
    #3544719 - 12/26/04 06:54 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Here (Belgium):

- for alcohol: 14
- for sex: 16
- for driving & all else: 18


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Owning others [Re: Kenny7822]
    #3544720 - 12/26/04 06:55 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well of course that's the legal age in the States as well as many other countries. I would venture to guess however that not everyone matures at the same rate. Also I would believe that some people considered minors by law are in fact capable of more mature thought and actions than many adults.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Owning others [Re: cb9fl]
    #3544733 - 12/26/04 06:58 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

In California, until my child is 18, any money that child earns from his/her labor is mine.

Does this mean I own my child?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Owning others [Re: Frog]
    #3544756 - 12/26/04 07:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Is that really true? If a 16 year old child brought home a paycheck and their parents took it from them would the child have any legal grounds for action? Could the child take his parent(s) to court to reclaim his lost income?

I'm not asking whether it's morally or otherwise right or not simply the validity of that statement.

Edit: I think that's way off topic, sorry SS7.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Edited by cb9fl (12/26/04 07:07 PM)


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OfflineKenny7822
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Re: Owning others [Re: cb9fl]
    #3544758 - 12/26/04 07:08 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

This is true, everyone matures at a different rate and some people don't seem to mature at all but we have to let go of our kids at some age so the law says we have to at age 18.

So should we be allowed to "own" our kids past 18 if we don't think they are mature enough? I don't know but I guess it's something to think about. I think if a person isn't mature by say age 30 they aren't going to get mature. But then some people suddenly mature once they have kids or get married so I don't know.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Owning others [Re: Frog]
    #3544777 - 12/26/04 07:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
In California, until my child is 18, any money that child earns from his/her labor is mine.

Does this mean I own my child?



While we're on the subject, what of the government? They claim a portion of the money you earn at your job. Does this in fact imply that they own you?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Owning others [Re: silversoul7]
    #3544786 - 12/26/04 07:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

^^^^ heh isn't that a PA&L Libertarian vs. everyone else discussion?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineTheCheat
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Re: Owning others [Re: silversoul7]
    #3544798 - 12/26/04 07:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

hehe, when you said "owning others", i thought you actually meant like OWNING other, like, pwning them. =/


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Owning others [Re: cb9fl]
    #3544806 - 12/26/04 07:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
^^^^ heh isn't that a PA&L Libertarian vs. everyone else discussion?



It certainly ties into that, but let's approach the question from an S&P perspective, shall we?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Owning others [Re: silversoul7]
    #3544807 - 12/26/04 07:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I know for a fact that the law in CA is that a parent may take a child's pay check. There's a .01% chance that I am wrong. I was implying that we own our children, therefore.

Good point, SS7. Does the government own us? It kind of works the way it did when there were indentured servants. Someone had to work until what he owed to the person who bought him was paid off. I think these were usually criminals. They were, in effect, slaves.

We can never buy our way out of taxation, though. But are we still owned?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Owning others [Re: silversoul7]
    #3544847 - 12/26/04 07:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well in the case of taxation, I would say that because the taxes are MEANT to be spent on the public, at the will of the public...it does not mean that the "government" owns us all. In an ideal system, the government would not be spending OUR tax dollars for its own ends.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Owning others [Re: trendal]
    #3544862 - 12/26/04 07:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Does a slave-owner still own his slaves if he spends the money on services for them?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Owning others [Re: silversoul7]
    #3544874 - 12/26/04 07:45 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well with slaves it's a little different. First, they are generally not paid ANY wages at all, instead of earning SOME money while having the rest taken. Second, it is not only their finances that are under direct control...their entire lives are under the control of the slave-owner.

Fortunately, we haven't progressed that far towards a fascist/communist government :wink:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Owning others [Re: trendal]
    #3544892 - 12/26/04 07:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Fortunately, we haven't progressed that far towards a fascist/communist government :wink:



This strikes me as an admission that it is a difference of degree and not of kind.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Owning others [Re: silversoul7]
    #3544899 - 12/26/04 07:51 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

We own nothing but our body, breath, and mind. And when the first two run out, your comletely 100% alone!

We are but slaves to our desires!

he he he, i love the philisophical shite! :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2:


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