qman said:

Tipote said:

What do you mean? I have repeatedly spoken about how all sides are guilty of aggression, racism, hatred, abuses etc. The point however is that we have to remember that there are voiceless vulnerable people caught in the middle of all this. Power relations and context is important. Many Europeans don't have a voice but compared to Europeans, refugees have NO voice. It is the far right talking of civil war, gas chambers etc.

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Yet, you very clearly try to make a strong distinction between the criminal acts of the two groups, one's just based on "money" and the other one is based on "hate"!!

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that wasn't a strong distinction. my point was that muslims commit some crimes for the same reasons any one else does. The majority of those crimes you posted were not serious crimes and around things like dodging the bus fare etc or about pickpocketing, shoplifting etc - money based. That does not mean that ALL of the crimes of muslims or refugees (not all refugees are muslim) are about money. I wasn't making that strong distinction. The distinction I was making is that Europeans are strong, have a voice and rights whereas refugees do not in anywhere near the same ways. Speaking up on that fact apparently makes me completely biased. European crimes against muslims show hate to be a big driver. That does not say that refugees don't commit crimes out of hate but it seems to not be as significant. If a criminal refugee rapes/assaults someone, do you think they think that they want to attack someone because they are European alone? They might think: 1. its a woman 2. shes alone 3. shes showing more skin than they are used to 4. western women are more sexually promiscuous than muslim women. They are scummy people that do that. (THAT DOESNT MAKE IT OK, OR JUSTIFY IT - before you jump down my throat). Whereas Europeans that attack mosques and hijabi women probably have a slightly different thought process....

Quote:

That type of approach is NOT speaking out EQUALLY between the two groups, that's because you are BIASED on the subject matter.

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I've fully acknowledged abuses by refugees, i've condemned attacks etc by muslims etc etc. The fact is the norm is the hate on muslims so I don't tend to talk about that much. You, starter, viktor, bubbles, HU and MANY MANY others already have that sorted. I instead give an alternative perspective and just because it goes against what you think you condemn me as biased. Where at any point have I said that rape or any other crimes is fine or not a big deal?

Quote:

The main crime in Cologne was physical assault, which ultimately leads to robbery. Again, it's your dismissive nature of these crimes which shows your bias for everyone to see, you're part of the problem.

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it was a well known pickpocketing gang who sexually assaulted women while robbing them, i imagine both motives were both strongly involved.. How am I dismissive of their crimes?

Quote:

BTW, I get along with all people, (blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Indians, Asians, ect). Many of my best clients were Jewish, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you're talking with someone who's been around the block a few times. I don't consider 45 "elderly".

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holy shit, you are 45? yeh that is not old. What happened?! i honestly thought you sounded like an old racist pensioner. Falcon might even be a little older than you, i cant remember, but he seems to be waay more switched on than people in their 30s.

I don't doubt that you can get on with "others" and I didnt think that you would turn down business just because someone was jewish. Doing business and getting along with people doesn't mean you don't perceive things along the lines of racial and cultural superiority.

Bubbles85 said:

Tipote said:

Bubbles85 said:

I was approached by a group of radical Muslims in Coventry city center just last Saturday afternoon, handing out leaflets and preaching their bull shit, after leaving a bar with a few mates (yes we told them to fuck off) as did pretty much every one else they tried to stop. People in Europe don't want it, yet it is now common place here.

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oooh wow *swoon*. how impressive of you bubbles. So some muslims were handing out leaflets and you told them to fuck off.
Do you not value freedom of speech then? Sounds like you were the only one being a dick in that situation

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And here we have what backs up, pretty much every thing I've just said ... I specifically stated that RADICAL Muslims were preaching their BS in the center of town and you play that down, stating "some Muslims" turning it around on me, to make me look like the bad guy.

I'm sorry, are we supposed to just stand and listen to hear how much we're hated in our own country? Fuck that shit ....

I can't even be fucked to answer to the rest of your nonsense. It clearly backs up every thing I've said about you. You're a Muslim apologist and some who quite clearly try's to play down the evil that festers within Islam ....

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Radical and fundamentalist are different. Being radical isnt criminal. You offered no information as to why you thought they were radical so I didn't see the point in allowing your labels to be part of my speech. Who knows? they might have been calling for all women to be beheaded. That wasn't clear.
Did you look at their leaflet? Personally i think it would have been bigger of you to debate with them or ignore them rather than just say fuck off. That does nothing positive except make your ego feel good for a couple of seconds. I could easily find what they are saying to be incredibly hateful and ignorant too, if you gave more information about what they were saying.. but instead you reduce what they were saying to being about "how much we're hated in our own country". Why not break their arguments down with logic and reasoned debate instead of hate? - even if they are hating on you.

Quote:

I can't even be fucked to answer to the rest of your nonsense. It clearly backs up every thing I've said about you. You're a Muslim apologist and some who quite clearly try's to play down the evil that festers within Islam ....

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muslim apologist? that term in itself backs up what i've said about you generalising on such silly scales!! I defend innocent people, not criminals.. but apparently to you standing up for one muslim means standing up for all of them.. including terrorists, rapists, fascists etc..

qman said:

Tipote said:

qman said:

When people are unemployed or working shit unskilled labor, how in the world would anyone expect them to contribute to the tax base?  Do you know what one trip to the hospital can cost?  More taxes than what one "refugee" could pay in a lifetime, never mind all the other social services these people leech off from the native population.

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Maybe in the US... but in Europe we dont pay the stupid cost levels you do. That isn't to say it won't cost..but you still havent made the case that refugees can NEVER contribute enough to make up for the extra burden. We are talking long term. Falc pointed out that Germany's unemployment rate is incredibly low. I dont think the lowering of wages is great by any means. There are no doubt some problems from this. But I don't believe they are insurmountable and plus - what i've argued for is that accepting refugees comes with many problems but is the right thing to do on many levels.

Quote:

What do you think illegals do in the US?  The same old shit, welfare, food stamps, public housing, education, criminal justice, and health care, who in the world do you think pays for it?  It's certainly NOT them.

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the US is certainly exceptional when it comes to poverty traps and cycles of dependency. Its bad in Europe too but not anything like the US.
Yes the tax payer will pay, and eventually it'll be the refugees that are tax payers contributing to the state. You can't seem to accept this is possible. There are refugees with all kinds of level of skill. You assume refugees will only be fit for unskilled labour and that is far from the case.

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http://acdemocracy.org/muslim-immigrants-draining-european-social-benefits/

High unemployment, social services leeching, and committing a massive disproportional amount of criminal acts means as a whole they are a net NEGATIVE on their country's balance sheet.

"but is the right thing to do on many levels"

Not if you're a native European, why in the world would they want to lower their standard of living?  It's only right if you're a Muslim or an African leaving the third world.

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because its the morally right thing to do, and practically in the long run. BUT it depends on effective integration and immigration mechanisms. its far from easy and hassle free. integration which has MOSTLY been successful has enriched our societies and make us stronger. Do you think GCHQ/MI5/6 depend only on white Europeans in this day and age? Muslims have died for Europe for many generations and to ignore that shows your bias, and is a diservice to those people. Whether they are seen as European by whites or not, it doesnt matter because they are and do contribute. 

Quote:

Even if some of these "refugees" are skilled and educated, why would a native European want to compete with them in a highly competitive labor market?  Again, there's already too many workers chasing too few of jobs.

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well its not ideal but it is reality. lol at the persistent ""s. unemployment is very low in germany and eventually more jobs will be created with more contributions. 

you have still failed to show me the statistics that show that refugees will NEVER contribute enough to offset costs in the long term.

its a nice day here and thats rare so i'm getting outside.

Quote:

Can you please show me one of my posts of mine where I am "bitching about Jews"

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Tipote said:

Personally i think it would have been bigger of you to debate with them or ignore them rather than just say fuck off.

---

What, like those massive groups of Muslims do in those Britain First videos you post

Tipote said:

@ bubbles, so which nonsense of mine in particular do you not want to respond to? Me asking you to back up what youre saying?

eg..

I asked..

Quote:

Can you please show me one of my posts of mine where I am "bitching about Jews"

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you said calling me an antisemite was a joke but it is not only not funny but not even fixed in reality so i can understand why you dont want to face it.

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Like i said i was poking fun at you. Your response to the documentary was "yeah well, they should have interviewed some Jews, they share the same views"

Kind of ironic in my eyes, when the program highlighted some deep seated Anti-Semitism with in large percentages of the Muslim population .....

Tipote said:

qman said:

Tipote said:

Maybe in the US... but in Europe we dont pay the stupid cost levels you do. That isn't to say it won't cost..but you still havent made the case that refugees can NEVER contribute enough to make up for the extra burden. We are talking long term. Falc pointed out that Germany's unemployment rate is incredibly low. I dont think the lowering of wages is great by any means. There are no doubt some problems from this. But I don't believe they are insurmountable and plus - what i've argued for is that accepting refugees comes with many problems but is the right thing to do on many levels.

Quote:

What do you think illegals do in the US?  The same old shit, welfare, food stamps, public housing, education, criminal justice, and health care, who in the world do you think pays for it?  It's certainly NOT them.

---

the US is certainly exceptional when it comes to poverty traps and cycles of dependency. Its bad in Europe too but not anything like the US.
Yes the tax payer will pay, and eventually it'll be the refugees that are tax payers contributing to the state. You can't seem to accept this is possible. There are refugees with all kinds of level of skill. You assume refugees will only be fit for unskilled labour and that is far from the case.

---

http://acdemocracy.org/muslim-immigrants-draining-european-social-benefits/

High unemployment, social services leeching, and committing a massive disproportional amount of criminal acts means as a whole they are a net NEGATIVE on their country's balance sheet.

"but is the right thing to do on many levels"

Not if you're a native European, why in the world would they want to lower their standard of living?  It's only right if you're a Muslim or an African leaving the third world.

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because its the morally right thing to do,

---

Tipote said:

qman said:

Tipote said:

qman said:

When people are unemployed or working shit unskilled labor, how in the world would anyone expect them to contribute to the tax base?  Do you know what one trip to the hospital can cost?  More taxes than what one "refugee" could pay in a lifetime, never mind all the other social services these people leech off from the native population.

---

Maybe in the US... but in Europe we dont pay the stupid cost levels you do. That isn't to say it won't cost..but you still havent made the case that refugees can NEVER contribute enough to make up for the extra burden. We are talking long term. Falc pointed out that Germany's unemployment rate is incredibly low. I dont think the lowering of wages is great by any means. There are no doubt some problems from this. But I don't believe they are insurmountable and plus - what i've argued for is that accepting refugees comes with many problems but is the right thing to do on many levels.

Quote:

What do you think illegals do in the US?  The same old shit, welfare, food stamps, public housing, education, criminal justice, and health care, who in the world do you think pays for it?  It's certainly NOT them.

---

the US is certainly exceptional when it comes to poverty traps and cycles of dependency. Its bad in Europe too but not anything like the US.
Yes the tax payer will pay, and eventually it'll be the refugees that are tax payers contributing to the state. You can't seem to accept this is possible. There are refugees with all kinds of level of skill. You assume refugees will only be fit for unskilled labour and that is far from the case.

---

http://acdemocracy.org/muslim-immigrants-draining-european-social-benefits/

High unemployment, social services leeching, and committing a massive disproportional amount of criminal acts means as a whole they are a net NEGATIVE on their country's balance sheet.

"but is the right thing to do on many levels"

Not if you're a native European, why in the world would they want to lower their standard of living?  It's only right if you're a Muslim or an African leaving the third world.

---

because its the morally right thing to do, and practically in the long run. BUT it depends on effective integration and immigration mechanisms. its far from easy and hassle free. integration which has MOSTLY been successful has enriched our societies and make us stronger. Do you think GCHQ/MI5/6 depend only on white Europeans in this day and age? Muslims have died for Europe for many generations and to ignore that shows your bias, and is a diservice to those people. Whether they are seen as European by whites or not, it doesnt matter because they are and do contribute. 

Quote:

Even if some of these "refugees" are skilled and educated, why would a native European want to compete with them in a highly competitive labor market?  Again, there's already too many workers chasing too few of jobs.

---

well its not ideal but it is reality. lol at the persistent ""s. unemployment is very low in germany and eventually more jobs will be created with more contributions. 

you have still failed to show me the statistics that show that refugees will NEVER contribute enough to offset costs in the long term.

its a nice day here and thats rare so i'm getting outside.

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"show me the statistics that show that refugees will NEVER contribute enough to offset costs in the long term"

How can I provide you with future statistics?   They don't even exist yet.

Just look at illegals living in the US, illegals and their children use 8 times more in tax revenue than they contribute, this happens year after year. They will NEVER pay for their past debts, it's mathematically impossible.

Some use the argument that when the government has to borrow money to support this financial deficit, it's creates "economic activity" and it's a good thing, sorry to break the news for these economic morons, but it actually hurts the economy.

The US and EU have a Debt/GDP of over 100% today, they are broke and basically insolvent. They can't afford another $50 billion expense for "refugees", resources are limited and there's a breaking point at a certain level.  But people like you never concern yourselves with the actual fiscal details to these "social experiments", it's the same old "right thing to do" song playing. EU citizens aren't stupid, they know when their standard of living is dropping and the reasons why, the backlash won't be pretty.

airclay said:

Pointing out your bs claim about illegals using 8 times more tax revenue and not paying back enough.


Prove it.

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http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-california-taxpayers

"The annual expenditure of state and local tax dollars for that population is $25.3 billion...$3.5 in tax collections"

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-texans

"fiscal burden of nearly $8.9 billion...the tax paid by illegal aliens- estimated at $1.27 billion"

They are a financial burden for the working middle-class who support them, the elite who promote the open-border policy benefit from the cheap labor while the other 99% of US citizens watch their standard of living decline as a result. There's a reason why Trump is #1 in the polls.

qman said:

airclay said:

Pointing out your bs claim about illegals using 8 times more tax revenue and not paying back enough.


Prove it.

---

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-california-taxpayers

"The annual expenditure of state and local tax dollars for that population is $25.3 billion...$3.5 in tax collections"

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From your article:

Quote:

Nearly half of those expenditures ($12.3 billion) result from the costs of K-12 education for the children of illegal aliens — both those illegally in the country and those born in the United States.

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Those costs INCLUDE legal citizens. 

Bubbles85 said:

Tipote said:

Personally i think it would have been bigger of you to debate with them or ignore them rather than just say fuck off.

---

What, like those massive groups of Muslims do in those Britain First videos you post

---

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

airclay said:

Pointing out your bs claim about illegals using 8 times more tax revenue and not paying back enough.


Prove it.

---

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-california-taxpayers

"The annual expenditure of state and local tax dollars for that population is $25.3 billion...$3.5 in tax collections"

---

From your article:

Quote:

Nearly half of those expenditures ($12.3 billion) result from the costs of K-12 education for the children of illegal aliens — both those illegally in the country and those born in the United States.

---

Those costs INCLUDE legal citizens. 

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That's why I clearly stated "illegals and their children" in my post.  Birthright citizenship was never meant for the way people south of the border are abusing it today. Another reason why Trump is #1 in the polls.

Bubbles85 said:

Tipote said:

@ bubbles, so which nonsense of mine in particular do you not want to respond to? Me asking you to back up what youre saying?

eg..

I asked..

Quote:

Can you please show me one of my posts of mine where I am "bitching about Jews"

---

you said calling me an antisemite was a joke but it is not only not funny but not even fixed in reality so i can understand why you dont want to face it.

---

Like i said i was poking fun at you. Your response to the documentary was "yeah well, they should have interviewed some Jews, they share the same views"

Kind of ironic in my eyes, when the program highlighted some deep seated Anti-Semitism with in large percentages of the Muslim population .....

---

WAN said:

Tipote said:

qman said:

"these groups should be clamped down on"

If they actually commit criminal acts, talking rudely isn't a crime.

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incitement is a crime

---

This sounds like a slippery slope.  In fact I think ALL "incitement laws" are slippery slope-style argument.

How do you distinguish between talking plainly about a racial group's shortfalls, wrongdoings...etc and incitement?  If I say that there are a lot of bile bear farms in China where a stunning level of suffering is happening, am I "inciting racial hatred" against the Chinese or am I just stating a fact?

---

qman said:

"show me the statistics that show that refugees will NEVER contribute enough to offset costs in the long term"

How can I provide you with future statistics?   They don't even exist yet.

---

Quote:

Some use the argument that when the government has to borrow money to support this financial deficit, it's creates "economic activity" and it's a good thing, sorry to break the news for these economic morons, but it actually hurts the economy.

---

Quote:

The US and EU have a Debt/GDP of over 100% today, they are broke and basically insolvent. They can't afford another $50 billion expense for "refugees", resources are limited and there's a breaking point at a certain level.  But people like you never concern yourselves with the actual fiscal details to these "social experiments", it's the same old "right thing to do" song playing. EU citizens aren't stupid, they know when their standard of living is dropping and the reasons why, the backlash won't be pretty.

---

Tipote said:

WAN said:

Tipote said:

qman said:

"these groups should be clamped down on"

If they actually commit criminal acts, talking rudely isn't a crime.

---

incitement is a crime

---

This sounds like a slippery slope.  In fact I think ALL "incitement laws" are slippery slope-style argument.

How do you distinguish between talking plainly about a racial group's shortfalls, wrongdoings...etc and incitement?  If I say that there are a lot of bile bear farms in China where a stunning level of suffering is happening, am I "inciting racial hatred" against the Chinese or am I just stating a fact?

---

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Yes, at times it can be a blurry line. But calling muslim scum, filth, degenerate, inferior, worth less than Europeans etc is not the "plain talking" youre talking about. They aren't facts. And in an already charged environment with lots of anger and tension, it helps nothing. looking at some of the big genocides - like the Rwandan genocide - it was french language radio channels speaking of other ethnic groups as cockroaches, etc. It dehumanises people of other groups which increases the likelihood of violence and murder. Things are tense enough in Europe, we need to be measured and not fall into these silly hateful traps of otherising and dehumanise. What if a civil war kicks off? You can be sure White Europe will destroy itself because you can be sure that vast numbers of people would protect their british muslim neighbours and the refugees. It is all European citizens of all backgrounds working together to help refugees in huge ways right now. It is the far right (both european and islamo- fascists) pushing for a fight.

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"vast numbers of people would protect their british muslim neighbors and the refugees"

You're dreaming my friend, when a backlash occurs the mentality becomes survival of self/family first and joining the winning side.  Yeah, maybe a few German's helped out the Jews, but it's human nature to survive and tribalism is a real human trait.

Do you have any idea how bad race relations are in the US?  People like Air who sign up with BLM's protesters will run for the hills if the shit ever hit the fan, ideals for other people are fine and well until the thought of death enter the equation.

I think you have a lot to learn about human nature and white culture.

"It is all European citizens of all backgrounds working together to help refugees"

Yeah, it's just one big lovefest. You're ideals work wonderful in the classroom but don't really have attachments to real life.  Moderates are have been protesting this nonsense and you know it, that's why policy has already changed in the past 2 months, you give the "far right" much too much credit.

Tipote said:

you can be sure that vast numbers of people would protect their british muslim neighbours and the refugees.

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qman said:

"vast numbers of people would protect their british muslim neighbors and the refugees"

You're dreaming my friend, when a backlash occurs the mentality becomes survival of self/family first and joining the winning side.  Yeah, maybe a few German's helped out the Jews, but it's human nature to survive and tribalism is a real human trait.

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Absolutely selfishness would largely come into play if this situation were to come about. But this isn't the only human trait in these situations.
It was more than a "few" germans who helped the jews . My grandfather alone saved hundreds if not thousands of Jews in occupied France.

The resistance did a lot considering the elite control of information and tech. Times have changed and capabilities have changed.

Quote:

Do you have any idea how bad race relations are in the US?  People like Air who sign up with BLM's protesters will run for the hills if the shit ever hit the fan, ideals for other people are fine and well until the thought of death enter the equation.

---

Quote:

I think you have a lot to learn about human nature and white culture.

---

Quote:

"It is all European citizens of all backgrounds working together to help refugees"

Yeah, it's just one big lovefest. You're ideals work wonderful in the classroom but don't really have attachments to real life.  Moderates are have been protesting this nonsense and you know it, that's why policy has already changed in the past 2 months, you give the "far right" much too much credit.

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so helping fellow humans is a big love-fest?.. right..

its funny you don't see your double standards

i've already said yes absolutely many people will give up their ideals in the moment but to assume this is the full story is far from the truth. There have been many cases through history of huge solidarity and sacrifice regardless of the threat of death.

Yes moderates have been protesting, but it is the fringe elements pushing this towards violence.

viktor said:

Tipote said:

you can be sure that vast numbers of people would protect their british muslim neighbours and the refugees.

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No way. People wouldn't protect them any more than the German people protected Jews from the Nazis.

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