airclay said:

qman said:

akira_akuma said:

how about from first world nations? are they worth more?

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Depends on the people and culture.

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oh really? and who decides who is good enough and by what standards?

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Bubbles85 said:

airclay said:

Bubbles, turkey already has 1.5m refugees in, the entire eu has 900k and wants to deport some, due to cultural and financial burdens. Why wouldn't turkey reasonably need aid to house the extra from the eu?

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No, the EU want to deport economic migrants. There's a big difference. Turkey is more than capable of helping these people, but they're exploiting the situation for financial and political gain.

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The Ecstatic said:

Bubbles85 said:

airclay said:

Bubbles, turkey already has 1.5m refugees in, the entire eu has 900k and wants to deport some, due to cultural and financial burdens. Why wouldn't turkey reasonably need aid to house the extra from the eu?

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No, the EU want to deport economic migrants. There's a big difference. Turkey is more than capable of helping these people, but they're exploiting the situation for financial and political gain.

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Why is Turkey more than capable but nations over twice their size are not?

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Enlil said:

To share the burden.

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qman said:

Enlil said:

To share the burden.

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The burden can be shared through financial means instead of taking in people from another part of the world, which has proven to be a disaster.

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airclay said:

A diff name doesn't mean it's a new group of people, it also doesn't mean it won't cost Turkey anything.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35741494

Quote:

European Union leaders are holding a key summit with Turkey in Brussels on ways of dealing with Europe's worst refugee crisis since World War Two.
The EU is pressing Turkey, through which many migrants transit, to take some back in return for $3.3bn in aid.
Turkey is reportedly asking for that sum to be doubled. The talks are being extended into a working dinner.
Meanwhile Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused the EU of failing to deliver on the promised aid.
"It's been four months," Mr Erdogan said in Ankara. "My prime minister is currently in Brussels. I hope he will return with the money."

Turkey is currently sheltering more than 2.7 million refugees from the civil war in neighbouring Syria. The EU wants Turkey to take back migrants who do not qualify for asylum and do more to patrol its own waters.
In exchange for this, the Turkish government is asking for the EU to increase its pledge to €6bn ($6.6bn; £4.64bn), European Parliament President Martin Schulz said.
Turkey is also seeking a faster path towards EU membership and the speeding up of plans to allow Turks visa-free travel in Europe.
Turkish PM Ahmet Davutoglu told reporters that he was proposing a "new package" designed to "strengthen Turkish-EU ties not only on the illegal migrants issue but also in all challenging issues as well as Turkey's EU accession process".

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Tipote said:

qman said:

Enlil said:

To share the burden.

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The burden can be shared through financial means instead of taking in people from another part of the world, which has proven to be a disaster.

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The sharing of the burden should be done both ways, but Europe's efforts at both are weak AF

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Yeah, Germany accepting 800,000 refugees in one year is a "weak" effort. 

airclay said:

well it shows exactly what I was saying, Turkey is flooded w "economic migrants" already, outside those that came through to the eu. how is possible you think they wouldn't need aid to take more from the eu?

Also your assumptions about Turkey are wholly incorrect. It was a secular democratic regime that's been sliding into nationalist islamic leanings for the last 20yrs. Erdogan has re-ignited a civil war w the kurds in the last year and there's video evidence of turkish troops helping isis troops cross the border. Why exactly do you think turkey is a better fit? cause it's not the eu?

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Tipote said:

airclay said:

A diff name doesn't mean it's a new group of people, it also doesn't mean it won't cost Turkey anything.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35741494

Quote:

European Union leaders are holding a key summit with Turkey in Brussels on ways of dealing with Europe's worst refugee crisis since World War Two.
The EU is pressing Turkey, through which many migrants transit, to take some back in return for $3.3bn in aid.
Turkey is reportedly asking for that sum to be doubled. The talks are being extended into a working dinner.
Meanwhile Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused the EU of failing to deliver on the promised aid.
"It's been four months," Mr Erdogan said in Ankara. "My prime minister is currently in Brussels. I hope he will return with the money."

Turkey is currently sheltering more than 2.7 million refugees from the civil war in neighbouring Syria. The EU wants Turkey to take back migrants who do not qualify for asylum and do more to patrol its own waters.
In exchange for this, the Turkish government is asking for the EU to increase its pledge to €6bn ($6.6bn; £4.64bn), European Parliament President Martin Schulz said.
Turkey is also seeking a faster path towards EU membership and the speeding up of plans to allow Turks visa-free travel in Europe.
Turkish PM Ahmet Davutoglu told reporters that he was proposing a "new package" designed to "strengthen Turkish-EU ties not only on the illegal migrants issue but also in all challenging issues as well as Turkey's EU accession process".

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Turkey is loving this leverage agaisnt the EU. The EU fund to help EU states like Greece to deal with the refugees is something like 700 million euros for the entire EU. Turkey is also trying to get visa-less travel for Turks.

Erdogan, that prick.

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Exactly, the entire EU gets 700 million to deal with this crisis and Turkey are demanding 6 billion, to take back an unknown number of migrants, that could ultimately amount to fuck all

The EU should tell Turkey to fuck off. Take control of the Aegean with military force, to return all boats back to Turkey, since these people are all perfectly safe there and then redistribute that 6 billion within the EU, to help Europe "and country's like Greece" deal with the people who have all ready made it here.

qman said:

I actually don't have that much issue with the $6 billion to help from a distance. It's the best money the EU will ever spend to keep out these people.

The better money to be spent will be the start deporting most of these "refugees" out of the EU back to their homelands.

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I just don't think it's necessary to bow down to their demands, when we could take control of this situation our selves. Doing that is the only way we can ensure that the flow of people really stops.

The 6 bill could then be used to deport all illegals, who do not qualify for asylum and toward helping country's like Greece deal with genuine refugees from Syria, until they're able to be returned home.

The trouble is, is we've got idiots like Merkel on the front line politically in this and she's more than happy to continue to absorb millions and millions of people, with open borders, no control and no evidence as to where they've come from. She needs fucking assassinating

Bubbles85 said:

qman said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/07/uk-military-to-join-nato-refugee-patrols-in-aegean

Looks like the party is over for "refugees" and their smugglers.

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No wonder Greece are doing fuck all to control the situation if they have a left wing government in power. To bad for them, that the right wing governments of the vise-grad 4 are now taking action on their behalf.

Bravo to the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia. If we didn't have them nothing would be fucking done and Europe would surely be completely destabilized by tens of millions of migrants.

Greece have got no one to blame but them selves. They have been more than happy, right from the start of this, to just dump these people on neighboring country's and now karma has come back and bit them in the ass.

Maybe now they might actually sort their fucking act out and try to find a way to resolve this.

On an unrelated note, is Donald Trumps wife not from Slovakia?

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Your posts sometimes make me facepalm myself into oblivion, Bubbles.

And LOL at qman using the word party when referring to refugees dying in the mediterranean! wtf

Bubbles, do you think the Tsipras government want uncontrolled numbers of migrants because they are left wing?? You seem like a really black and white thinker sometimes.

Bravo at those states? They all are still taking refugees and they have only restricted the flow due to the lack of a coherent EU-wide cooperation in the face of all this. But their actions plus the EU as a whole dragging their feet does not help the situation.

Greece has no one to blame but themselves?? Those fuckers with their geographical position and long coastal borders!! God damn them!! They should really sort that out! 

BTW about Turkey, economic migrants being sent back will be replaced by refugees directly from the camps.

Quote:

You seem to be in favor of just allowing uncontrolled numbers to continue to bombard the continent.

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Where did I say that?

Quote:

Any one with an ounce of common sense would surely realize that securing the borders is the only way to take control of this situation

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but securing the border and accepting refugees are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:

What don't you get about the infrastructures not being able to deal with that?

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I think I've got that point fine but what I'm saying is how does this point that we both understand not apply to the situation of Greece. Surely its worse when concentrated in one place..especially in poorer fragile states in the periphery? This is a point you don't seem to get.

Quote:

Please explain to me how sealing off Greece's Northern Border will be disastrous for the whole of the EU? It won't. Controlling the borders is the sensible thing to do, whether you agree to that or not.

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See above point. Sealing off the border makes no sense. Securing the border and processing the distribution of refugees are good ideas. I don't think any states are sealing their border off, they are just massively restricting the flow eg. 80 a day, when sometimes there are a 1000 a day amassing on the North Greece border. Its called a bottle-neck. See above point.

Bubbles85 said:

Quote:

  Tipote said:
    While some of those refugees want to go to the countries you list who have been enforcing their borders, most of them want to go to other states.

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So? the countries that have sealed their borders are the ones on the front line in all of this. Every single migrant is or has, passed through their country's. I don't see why you're getting your panties in a twist with me. Whats happening is happening. Its not my fault.

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Maybe now you understand how Greece feels? Oh but except NO its Greece's fault, those leftist loons! No one is sealing borders entirely as far as I'm aware? See above point.
Yes, there should be a better EU-wide coordinated means to process these people effectively and transport them to where can go but that would involve some responsibility! Instead we can just not take responsibility and allow people to get to places by themselves.

My panties are fine, what are you reacting to?

Bubbles85 said:

Quote:

    Tipote said:
    In many cases, families are trying to reunite. This is seen as a second wave of migration with more wives and children trying to get to their brothers and fathers in Germany.

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You seem to love to pull assumptions about these people out of your ass. First it was reasonable to assume the men would come first when 80% of them were male. Now the women and children are trying to play catch up, to reunite with them? Give me a fucking break.

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Actually, I already told you that I was repeating what the Oxford University Migration Observatory was saying.

Quote:

If those fucking cowards have left their women and children to deal with this on their own, then thats the fault of the migrants and no one else.

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I'm not sure what your point is re blame and faults, I was stating a fact of the trends of migration. It's a bit odd that you think divided families making dangerous journeys in order to secure a safe life for the family is cowardly.
Sometimes the journey is not possible all united, if you can imagine it. Men can often secure the means for their family to come join them with greater ease. That is partly why there are changes in the make up of the influxes and waves of migration.

Quote:

Please explain to me how sealing the borders is going to make this worse than it all ready is for the EU?

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Sealing the borders and securing the borders are different things.
Sealing the problem in one place, say Greece, does what you said yourself - puts more strain infrastructure in a place which already has a vastly strained system.
Do you think Greece defaulting EU debts is going to be good for the EU? Do you think poverty, crime and unemployment are going to good in a country within the EU? Do you think that this won't affect bordering countries?

qman said:

Tipote said:

qman said:

Enlil said:

To share the burden.

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The burden can be shared through financial means instead of taking in people from another part of the world, which has proven to be a disaster.

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The sharing of the burden should be done both ways, but Europe's efforts at both are weak AF

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Yeah, Germany accepting 800,000 refugees in one year is a "weak" effort. 

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Bubbles85 said:

they we're not considered democratic enough to join the EU, so why should they be allowed to use this crisis as leverage toward pushing for that now?

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Quote:

They're black mailing the EU. End of story.

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Quote:

Turkey is going down the route of a totalitarian state, not a democratic one.

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Bubbles85 said:

Exactly, the entire EU gets 700 million to deal with this crisis and Turkey are demanding 6 billion, to take back an unknown number of migrants, that could ultimately amount to fuck all

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Quote:

The EU should tell Turkey to fuck off.

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Quote:

Take control of the Aegean with military force, to return all boats back to Turkey, since these people are all perfectly safe there

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perfectly safe? What do you know about that Bubbles?

Turkey has an interest in smuggling, what you are proposing will just increase the exploitation involved in getting to Europe.
Also I wonder how much all those military operations will cost. Do you think it would be more than the cost of just investing in and accepting refugees? Or the cost of their 'leaching' as you and qman might say. It would be interesting to see. If it is then it kind of defeats the object.

Quote:

and then redistribute that 6 billion within the EU, to help Europe "and country's like Greece" deal with the people who have all ready made it here.

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