qman said:

"Climate change"

Not Europe's problem, the climate changes all the time, that doesn't mean people are allowed to flood into countries all over the world.

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Quote:

"constant American bombs"
What are you talking about?  The military bombing of Iraq ended a long time ago, there is nothing constant about US bombing in the ME. If the US engages in a air bombing it's on a very small scale using precision technology, it doesn't affect many people at all.

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The West are still bombing in Iraq, and in Syria, and they are bombing and supporting the bombing in Yemen. Why do you think they stopped? And does stopping alone fix the damage caused after decades of destruction?

LOL "it doesnt affect many people at all"? I thought you were an economist, qman. What about the impacts throughout the region to the average person?
Taliban numbers surged in Afgahnistan and all militants said they knew someone, or was related to someone, who was wiped out with drone strikes. Even the CIA accept that drone strikes fuel terrorism. Why can't you?

Tipote said:

qman said:

"People will not stop coming though"

They will once they realize the open door is now closed.

"a symptom of how fucked up the world has become"

Not really, the world has always been "fucked up" to some degree, but when people from these places see a better life in Europe, they are going to try in get in regardless of what is happening in their homelands.

Many of their homelands do suck, but that doesn't justify them flooding into the EU.  Africa has too many people and they can't even take care of themselves, that's a African problem, not a European issue.

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I dont think ANYONE on this thread has said we should allow all economic migrants to come into Europe.

Everyone already accepts that some economic migrants are trying to come in with this influx. This just calls for greater organisation and processing of those coming. It seems to be common sense to understand that people will come to the developed world, from the developing world if they have no chance to survive in their own countries. Anyone in the world would react the same. your family came from Poland to make their lives better. This is not unique to white people.

Yes, the world has always been fucked up in many ways. It is a continuum of being fucked up. And Europe and the West in general has played a large part in this in the last 20 years (at the very least) of wars in the Middle East and North Africa.

Why can't we understand that there is logic in the idea that if we contribute (or even if we dont) to the destruction of a country, it affects other countries including our own in the long run? Doesn't that seem reasonable?

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Malkuthian said:

"The intention of Islam"
Like it is one homogeneous group with a unified goal...

Just some posts back it was described that "they" are brutal savages that treat each other so bad "they" don't even want to live next to each other anymore.

But all of a sudden they are extremely organized and plans to conquer Europe as unified Muslims?

I am having a hard to to argue on this topic because I don't see the picture you are trying to paint.

And I still want some sources verifying that the immigrants are not in need but actually strategically placed to Islamify Europe... Such claims are very extreme. They have to be backed up with something...

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Tipote said:

qman said:

"Climate change"

Not Europe's problem, the climate changes all the time, that doesn't mean people are allowed to flood into countries all over the world.

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LOLOLOL qman, i think you need to learn what the word climate means!!!

Also, no one is saying that because of climate change, people from all over the world can flood other countries. It means we can understand that these global changes are having global implications. This should give impetus for tackling climate change, and learning how to integrate populations effectively, because things are only going to get worse.

Quote:

"constant American bombs"
What are you talking about?  The military bombing of Iraq ended a long time ago, there is nothing constant about US bombing in the ME. If the US engages in a air bombing it's on a very small scale using precision technology, it doesn't affect many people at all.

---

The West are still bombing in Iraq, and in Syria, and they are bombing and supporting the bombing in Yemen. Why do you think they stopped? And does stopping alone fix the damage caused after decades of destruction?

LOL "it doesnt affect many people at all"? I thought you were an economist, qman. What about the impacts throughout the region to the average person?
Taliban numbers surged in Afgahnistan and all militants said they knew someone, or was related to someone, who was wiped out with drone strikes. Even the CIA accept that drone strikes fuel terrorism. Why can't you?

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qman said:

My Polish ancestors were invited into the US to work because they needed more labor, that's completely different than Africans and Muslims flooding into the EU in 2016.

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Quote:

You're always going to say that the EU/US influenced the problems in the third world countries regardless the level of their involvement, therefore that provides justification for taking in more people, than line of reasoning doesn't cut it for the large majority of the native populations.

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Tipote said:

qman said:

http://www.businessfinancenews.com/27632-deutsche-bank-ag-more-turmoil-for-european-banks/

Shit is starting to get very real in the EU, the appetite for poor people coming into the EU as the native population becomes poorer isn't going to sell many people, including liberals.

Also, the debt markets are now coming under more stress, I know people tend to forget that the EU doesn't even have the money to support them own people (they run up debt to do so), never mind third world "refugees".

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The article didn't seem to say anything about refugees, or was that not your point? Is your point that the economic situation is worsening generally and that this won't help things? I agree if thats the point. The article said part of it was the fall in oil prices.

There is a housing crisis in the UK right now, and there has always been one. I accept that the influx of refugees complicates an already strained system.
The issue however is the structure. Thousands of homes all over the UK have been bought by the world's oligarchs and are largely left empty. The prices of houses shoot up artificially. In London, 1 million pounds might get you a 1 or 2 bedroom place. Gentrification is happening throughout the West (and the world). Our governments, in conjunction with corporations, are speeding this along. Our governments already treat poorer people like shit, and they arent even refugees.

All these problems that are being brought up along the lines of being a burden of public services, are just highlighting the problem already with our countries. The divide of rich and poor is a national and an international crisis. People say, we can't look after our own poor, why take others? The real issue is why arent we taking care of our own poor in the first place? Its a lack of will, not a lack of money. Refugees are just another external distraction to justify our own disgraceful attitude towards our own poor.

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Tipote said:

qman said:

My Polish ancestors were invited into the US to work because they needed more labor, that's completely different than Africans and Muslims flooding into the EU in 2016.

---

So were the muslims in the 1950s in France.

You guys seem to consistently mix up all kinds of terms. Refugees, economic migrants, illegal immigrants, etc etc.

My point was about the fact that huge global inequality is going to create this push. Our governments want cheaper labour, even if they have a labour surplus. That is wrong. They also want to rob developing countries of their resources and back oppressive regimes to get the job done. All of this creates the conditions to attract huge numbers of economic migrants. It is understandable that people will move to make a better life. It therefore makes sense for all of the world to have the whole world's economic success in its interest. That doesnt mean do everything for other countries, it means not bombing the fuck out of countries, not stealing resources and fuelling conflict, etc etc.

Quote:

You're always going to say that the EU/US influenced the problems in the third world countries regardless the level of their involvement, therefore that provides justification for taking in more people, than line of reasoning doesn't cut it for the large majority of the native populations.

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As viktor says, pick up a history book sometime!

The involvement of the West in the third world is significant to say the least. It has been going on for well over 700 years.

No this isnt the argument to say that we should take in more people. The fact that these people are fleeing conflict is reason enough to offer them protection.

It is more an argument for a better international developmental discourse when dealing with poor countries. Resource theft doesnt help those countries in the long run, and it doesnt help us in the long run.

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qman said:

It's not "constant bombing", the means of warfare have changed dramatically in just the past 20 years.  It's called surgical bombing on specific targets, that's exposes very few people to it. 

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this actually made me

Surgical bombing?
Like the bombing of hospitals?
Like the bombing of weddings?
Even drone operators are coming out against this.

Yes war has changed. Now you hvave a situation where the US used depleted uranium weaponry which is causing generations of Iraqis to have cancers and other mutations. There have been kids born with multiple heads.

on bombing -

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147

https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/former-drone-operators-say-they-were-horrified-by-cruelty-of-assassination-program/
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Quote:

Documents detailing a special operations campaign in northeastern Afghanistan, Operation Haymaker, show that between January 2012 and February 2013, U.S. special operations airstrikes killed more than 200 people. Of those, only 35 were the intended targets. During one five-month period of the operation, according to the documents, nearly 90 percent of the people killed in airstrikes were not the intended targets. In Yemen and Somalia, where the U.S. has far more limited intelligence capabilities to confirm the people killed are the intended targets, the equivalent ratios may well be much worse. from here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/civilian-deaths-drone-strikes_us_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff

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Quote:

Some people in this thread seem to characterize the US military as some sort of killing machine still bombing the hell out of everyone in the Middle East, I got news for you guys, if the US military wanted to blowup and takeover the whole ME, they would have done it already, it's not a goal.

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Quote:

"integrate populations effectively"

So why should Europeans who are responsibly controlling their populations growth take on the burden of Africans inability to control their populations?  That makes no sense, those people need to fix their own problems and stop relying on the white man to fix everything.

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qman said:

You can't blame global economic inequality as a justification for people trying to flood into the EU, the world is never going to be perfect, it's never going to meet your standards.

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Quote:

"Resource theft doesn't help those countries in the long run"
Really, Qatar, Kuwait, SA, Iran, and UAE are doing so bad from all of this "resource theft". Iraq was also making plenty of money as well, who is stealing all of this oil?

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Quote:

Why are Syrians fleeing their homes?

    -Violence: Since the Syrian civil war began, 320,000 people have been killed, including nearly 12,000 children. About 1.5 million people have been wounded or permanently disabled, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.4 The war has become more deadly since foreign powers joined the conflict.
    -Collapsed infrastructure: Within Syria, healthcare, education systems, and other infrastructure have been destroyed; the economy is shattered.
    -Children’s safety: Syrian children — the nation’s hope for a better future — have lost loved ones, suffered injuries, missed years of schooling, and witnessed violence and brutality. Warring parties forcibly recruit children to serve as fighters, human shields, and in support roles, according to the U.S. State Department.

- See more at: http://www.worldvision.org/news-stories-videos/syria-war-refugee-crisis

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Tipote said:

Bubbles85 said:

Another night of sexual assaults and rapes in Germany, on the first day of the Cologne carnival.

Police have 190 people in custody. The BBC reported that the police had refused to state the origin of the 190 people arrested at the Women’s Day Carnival in Cologne yesterday, stating they were “a cross section of the general public”

VIDEO TV reporter is sexually assaulted by a man at Cologne carnival amid scores of attacks

Cologne Carnival: 22 reports of sex assaults despite heavy police presence

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your first link shows a European sexually assaulting a journalist.
your second link says it was a cross-section of the population.

sorry, could you elaborate your point here?

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Tipote said:

Malkuthian said:

"The intention of Islam"
Like it is one homogeneous group with a unified goal...

Just some posts back it was described that "they" are brutal savages that treat each other so bad "they" don't even want to live next to each other anymore.

But all of a sudden they are extremely organized and plans to conquer Europe as unified Muslims?

I am having a hard to to argue on this topic because I don't see the picture you are trying to paint.

And I still want some sources verifying that the immigrants are not in need but actually strategically placed to Islamify Europe... Such claims are very extreme. They have to be backed up with something...

---

great post.

This argument from bubbles and others is just laughable. Islam is not monolithic and many Westernised Muslims don't even practice their religion much. This argument comes from someone's ass, with no evidence to back it up.

I should add that there are some alliances that profit from this narrative being propagated. I have made parallels before between Israel and the crisis, there is a clear interest in Israel for Europe to follow this ridiculous narrative. When people post things from the gatestone institute, or pamela geller, they seem to not understand that these groups have heavy Israeli funding behind them. The fact is, the right wing are being played like a musical instrument. The narrative imposed by the powerful is to shun the weak, fall into the pit of fear and to hate the "other". The resistance is to reject this hateful ideology and to not accept the path set before us.

I accept that the Western system is too broken for the refugees to be absorbed with no problems, this is why a drastic change needs to occur in Europe and the US. Not just for the benefit of refugees, but for the benefit of the population as a whole.

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Quote:

Many of the people have fled an escalating government assault on Aleppo.

Rebel-held areas in and around the city are still home to 350,000 people and aid workers have said they could soon fall to the government.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which monitors the war, said air strikes, thought to be from Russian planes, hit villages north of Aleppo on Sunday.

“There is a moral, if not also legal duty, to protect those in need of protection and asylum seekers, that arises out of the Geneva Convention,” said Mina Andreeva, EU Commission spokesperson.

Turkey finds itself in a difficult position. The country is already sheltering more than two and a half million Syrian refugees – a number that could swell further with the new arrivals.

At the same time, Ankara is being called upon by the EU to limit the flow of people to Europe and to readmit those who have had their asylum applications rejected elsewhere.

The Oncupinar gate on the border has been largely shut for nearly a year. The newest arrivals have been shepherded into camps on the Syrian side, where Turkey says they are safe for now.

The local governor of Oncupinar said on Saturday that around 35-thousand had reached the border in the space of 48 hours.

“If needed, we will let those brothers in,” President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was quoted as saying.

Aid officials at Oncupinar said they were focusing for now on getting aid to the Syrian side of the border, where Turkish agencies have set up new shelters.

from here: http://www.euronews.com/2016/02/08/eu-piles-pressure-on-turkey-to-open-border-to-syrian-refugees/

---

Quote:

Twenty-seven migrants, including 11 children, drowned in the Aegean Sea on Monday as they tried to cross from Turkey to Greece, Dogan news agency said.

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Quote:

Consider for a moment these two statements, both by European commissioners, a day apart.

First, from EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini: "Turkey has a moral if not a legal duty to provide protection to those fleeing persecution."

Then, Johannes Hahn, the EU's enlargement commissioner: "The action plan with Turkey was agreed more than two months ago, and we're still not seeing a significant decline in the number of migrants. Turkey could do more."

What it boils down to is this: open the back door to let in the refugees, but close the front one to stop them moving on.

That is the bind Turkey is now in: caught between the humanitarian crisis in Syria and the refugee crisis in Europe.

At its southern border with Syria, tens of thousands are waiting to cross, Turkey still the gatekeeper to sanctuary.

But at its western border with Greece, the EU is demanding more patrols to stop them from continuing their journey - to stem Europe's most serious migration crisis since World War Two.

And so amid conflicting pressures, the Kilis border crossing between Turkey and Syria remains shut, those escaping the nightmare of Aleppo stuck in the middle of a bigger and more complicated debate.
Bargaining chip

The EU says the 3bn euros (£2.3bn) it is giving Turkey as part of a recent deal is precisely aimed at allowing the country to cope with its refugee influx and welcome in more like those from Aleppo.

Ankara retorts it needs that money to help the 2.5 million Syrians already here, improving their living conditions to allow them to stay.

Providing them with access to education and the workforce will eat into the EU money.

If the 3bn euros is spent on new refugee camps for tens of thousands fleeing Aleppo, it could run out fast.

But it's not just Europe playing politics with the Aleppo crisis.

Turkey is undoubtedly using this situation as a bargaining chip, hoping to get more money and help from Europe as well as concrete action to halt the Russian air strikes, which have pushed so many to flee.

Turkey is dangling the keys to its border in front of the nose of Brussels. The message: "Help us, or we'll set this group loose on you."

Moreover, by establishing refugee camps on the Syrian side of the border, Turkey is presenting a blueprint of its long-stated goal: to create a "safe zone" in northern Syria in which refugees can be sheltered, patrolled by the international community.

Critics say Ankara wants that only to prevent Syrian Kurdish groups - Turkey's enemy - from cementing their control of the area.

Either way, with Turkish aid camps already housing thousands who have escaped Aleppo, the buffer zone is moving from idea to reality.

That this point has been reached is undoubtedly an indictment of Western inaction during five years of the Syrian war - and a lack of co-ordination by Europe over the refugee crisis.

And the prospects for resolution look bleak. EU countries are still fighting over the numbers of refugees they will absorb, the onslaught on Aleppo is intensifying and Syrian peace talks in Geneva collapsed last week into a mess of acrimony.

What is more, many EU members are reluctant to cosy up to a Turkish government that is jailing journalists, suing perceived critics and waging an armed conflict with its Kurdish minority.

And so politics fails, the war drags on - and 350,000 residents of Aleppo could be surrounded if the assault by the Syrian government and Russian air strikes achieve their goal.



That could deal a fatal blow to the Syrian opposition - and send tens of thousands more fleeing towards the Turkish border.

Perhaps those mixed messages from Europe simply reveal the stark reality: nobody knows how Syria's hell can end.

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Bubbles85 said:

What argument would that be? The one where i simply showed that Islam is responsible for a higher number of deaths of non Muslims, than the West is of Muslims?

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Bubbles85 said:

Tipote said:

Bubbles85 said:

Another night of sexual assaults and rapes in Germany, on the first day of the Cologne carnival.

Police have 190 people in custody. The BBC reported that the police had refused to state the origin of the 190 people arrested at the Women’s Day Carnival in Cologne yesterday, stating they were “a cross section of the general public”

VIDEO TV reporter is sexually assaulted by a man at Cologne carnival amid scores of attacks

Cologne Carnival: 22 reports of sex assaults despite heavy police presence

---

your first link shows a European sexually assaulting a journalist.
your second link says it was a cross-section of the population.

sorry, could you elaborate your point here?

---

Tipote said:

Bubbles85 said:

Another night of sexual assaults and rapes in Germany, on the first day of the Cologne carnival.

Police have 190 people in custody. The BBC reported that the police had refused to state the origin of the 190 people arrested at the Women’s Day Carnival in Cologne yesterday, stating they were “a cross section of the general public”

VIDEO TV reporter is sexually assaulted by a man at Cologne carnival amid scores of attacks

Cologne Carnival: 22 reports of sex assaults despite heavy police presence

---

your first link shows a European sexually assaulting a journalist.
your second link says it was a cross-section of the population.

sorry, could you elaborate your point here?

---

No it doesn't. The reporter stated that the man "appeared" European. That doesn't men he was.

If you read the entire article, it clearly states -

Quote:

Police say the attacks were mostly carried out by foreigners, fueling debate in Germany about the country’s ability to cope with the huge number of migrants that have arrived over the past year.

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Yes i wonder why they are continually skewing the facts surrounding this bull shit? making statements like "they are a cross section of the general public" i think we all know bu know exactly what that means.

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The women sexually assaulted in that video is no different to this retard of a Journalist, who was attacked in Calais by migrants with a knife a few weeks ago.
Journalist Publishes Shocking Footage Of Calais Attack

Instead of condemning the migrants, in true Libtard form, he then went on to blame Europe for the attack

Him and the female journalist sexually assaulted are one in the same, to fucking scared to blame these mother fuckers directly. PC fucking morons.

Bubbles85 said:

Yes i wonder why they are continually skewing the facts surrounding this bull shit? making statements like "they are a cross section of the general public" i think we all know bu know exactly what that means.

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Tipote said:

qman said:

You can't blame global economic inequality as a justification for people trying to flood into the EU, the world is never going to be perfect, it's never going to meet your standards.

---

so the worlds never going to be perfect so why bother improving it? is that what you are saying? perhaps i missed your point.

I only said that this is a significant reason and its not going away. In fact, its only getting worse as global inequality increases.
If people die in their own countries from not being able to earn any money, they are going to go to somewhere they can. This is just a fact of life.
I'm not even calling for economic migrants to be allowed into Europe, i'm talking about refugees. I'm also calling for a new international development discourse which tackles some of the larger fuel to global migration. If you want people to stay in their own country, make the global economy less rigged against poorer countries. Or is it rich countries right to concentrate all the world's wealth within a handful of people at the expense of everyone else?

Quote:

"Resource theft doesn't help those countries in the long run"
Really, Qatar, Kuwait, SA, Iran, and UAE are doing so bad from all of this "resource theft". Iraq was also making plenty of money as well, who is stealing all of this oil?

---

Multinationals have the contracts for much of this oil. Western oil companies were involved in the very beginning with Mossadeq's oil in Iran and with the oil in Saudi Arabia.

Ofcourse, it is made to be beneficial to handful of elites in these countries who are willing to sell out their countries but many of these governments are coerced if they don't.

It is a fact that oil or resource rich countries are more likely to have autocratic regimes controlling them and colossal economic inequalities between poor and rich. Google "resource curse"

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Tipote said:

Bubbles85 said:

What argument would that be? The one where i simply showed that Islam is responsible for a higher number of deaths of non Muslims, than the West is of Muslims?

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No, its the argument that muslims or islam has an intent of colonisation of Europe and that immigration constitutes ethnic cleansing.

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Tipote said:

Bubbles85 said:

Yes i wonder why they are continually skewing the facts surrounding this bull shit? making statements like "they are a cross section of the general public" i think we all know bu know exactly what that means.

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Skewing the facts? You are providing little to no facts.

Yes we know what it means, it means there were migrants and non-migrants involved. No one is pretending that these isnt a problem of sexual harassment from migrants, its just ok to remember sometimes that its also non-migrants.

its interesting how when they say that they looked European, you are skeptical about whether they are European but when they are said to have looked Arab, then you accept that and do not make the same argument. Do you think Europeans don't sexually assault and rape people? Or are they secret muslims?

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Bubbles85 said:

The women sexually assaulted in that video is no different to this retard of a Journalist, who was attacked in Calais by migrants with a knife a few weeks ago.
Journalist Publishes Shocking Footage Of Calais Attack

Instead of condemning the migrants, in true Libtard form, he then went on to blame Europe for the attack

Him and the female journalist sexually assaulted are one in the same, to fucking scared to blame these mother fuckers directly. PC fucking morons.

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Quote:

"I show all sides, good or bad, I have no agenda and I have been documenting conflicts for 25 years," he said.

"I do not want to push any agenda, left wing or right wing. I was simply documenting what happened and I know that some publications are using it to their own agenda, but I was simply documenting the sides" he told HuffPost UK.

The Dutch journalist said he had been attacked three times in the camp since September and wasn't clear on the intentions of the ambushers.

"I show all sides, good or bad, I have no agenda and I have been documenting conflicts for 25 years," he said.

"I do not want to push any agenda, left wing or right wing. I was simply documenting what happened and I know that some publications are using it to their own agenda, but I was simply documenting the sides" he told HuffPost UK.

The Dutch journalist said he had been attacked three times in the camp since September and wasn't clear on the intentions of the ambushers.

After its release film-maker Engels wrote on her Facebook page: "Within every community, among the good ones, you'll always find a couple of assholes. 'The Jungle' is no exception. But I guess living under such deplorable conditions the less creative, intelligent and ambitious are very likely to become small criminals, because they've got nothing higher to aim at."

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