Auto-SummaryThe post discusses the gender imbalance in Syrian refugee populations, with men greatly outnumbering women. The author argues that while this imbalance is concerning, it is partially due to the fact that men are more likely to have qualifications, secure jobs, and survive the journey. The author also addresses the claim that economic migrants have been coming to Europe since the beginning of the crisis, and asserts that this is not representative of the entire influx. The post concludes by emphasizing that the root causes of the crisis are neoliberal economic policies, the global war on terror, and the global war on drugs, and that these issues are driven by right-wing ideologies.
Bubbles85 said:
Tipote said:
Yes that last post was the first time you have mentioned it. We are talking about it now but my point is that I don't think you have said that before now but if you are saying that you have said multiple times before, then you won't have trouble finding me another example I assume?
No it wasn't the first time that I've said that and i have no intentions of trawling through countless threads and posts to try and prove myself to you. I know what I've said and i know my position on the matter.
so you cant back up your statement? I'm asking you for one statement in the past that you have made supporting the acceptance of genuine refugees into the EU.
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80% is the figure for men in sweden, I believe the average for the whole of Europe is 70% male
Big difference then? 
Yes there is a big difference between 70% and 80%
While a lack of gender balance in the population is not a good and we can certainly agree its not good, we can also try to understand why the statistics are like this. I think we can all understand that it is men in the family who are more likely to have any qualifications, they are more likely to get a job, and they are more likely to be able to survive the journey whether by land or sea. Any study showing the gender imbalances also concede that imbalances may in time be corrected when families are reunited.
When my family moved to the US, my dad went alone first to create the conditions for his family to join him.
Women are often sexually exploited by traffickers or young girls are abducted for the sex industry.
If you look at the total numbers of syrian refugees, the divide is very close to 50/50 between male and female. The imbalance comes when we look at who is making the journey.
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the 60% figure for those which are not refugees, is a recent statistic and not representative of the entire flow of people. As the crisis goes on, clearly people are being opportunist and coming in with refugees.
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Please provide proof that economic scroungers, have not been coming in to Europe right from the start of this? It is impossible for you to know that. The governments do not even know, so i highly doubt you do, but please feel free to enlighten me.
I never made that statement. I was suggesting that since your 60% figure came from a quote that was talking about the present moment, it is not representative of the entire influx. It makes sense that people are jumping on board as things are getting momentum. I never said economic migrants were not coming in the beginning, economic migrants have always tried to come to Europe, thats not new.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/09/economist-explains-4
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Tip said: We can agree that the EU needs to manage this better. Germany has made an effort but it is not as effective as it would be with full EU cooperation and management of this. No one says economic migrants should be able to stay, and clearly the EU is deporting them in the 100s of thousands. Germany has been constantly deporting people who do not qualify.
Great, so we both agree, that open door immigration policies, guided by Liberal ideologies, are the route cause of this mess and should be scrapped.
No.. thats not what we were agreeing to!!
If you are saying that accepting refugees is a liberal policy, thats fine but i think its inaccurate. It is a policy that governments on the left, right and centre have signed up to. Most importantly, is it not the "route cause of this mess". The root cause of this mess is
- a neoliberal economic and political agenda driven from the US (right wing policy) which has been supported by liberal and conservative governments all over
- a global war on terror which has led to the invasion and occupation of many middle eastern countries and which was also supported by left, right and centre. (also a right wing policy)
- a global war on drugs (right wing policy) also supported by left right and centre.
The UK for one has hardly been left wing all the time it was under Blair but the point is that all of Europe followed these right wing policies. Even if they aren't right wing, the fact of the matter is that war is at the room cause of this mess.
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How would you prove that?
Because areas that are dominated by that of only migrants, are not people who have assimilated with the general population. If you can not see that a type of ethnic cleansing takes place, as a direct result of mass migration in every town and city right across the UK and most of Europe, then maybe you need to open your eyes.
You really undervalue the significance of words when you say that immigration is ethnic cleansing. population is increasing, no decreasing. Sure the proportions are changing but that does not constitute ethnic cleansing. You do a disservice to those who do face ethnic cleansing by reducing it to such silliness.
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Thats why, because that is exactly where they ultimately end up. In the poorest community's with no prospects. Thats a fact and that is why immigrant crime rates are so disproportionate to the rest of the Eu's inhabitants.
as ive said a million times, integration is a relationship, it takes 2 to tango and all that. The country needs to make an effort and the immigrant needs to make an effort. Yes there are cases where one side doesn't or both sides don't make an effort.
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Not only that, but if immigrants do assimilate, please explain to me, why they purposely create there own community's, isolated from the rest of the country?
When coming to strange new country, it is comforting to have security and familiarity. That is completely understandable. When I am in the US, i gravitate towards groups of French and English people. Thats completely reasonable. It doesnt mean i'm not interacting with mainly Americans when I work.
There are some parts of the UK largely polish, some parts of london that are specifically Russian, there are some parts that are also Greek and Turkish Cypriot.
While some isolation can occur, you are assuming that is the norm and that its a norm only because of THEM.
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You state that mass numbers are not great, whilst at the same time trying to defend them.
I am only defending the acceptance of refugees.
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Yes Merkels Liberal open door ideologies did invite them, NOT GERMANY as a whole. Germany did not invite these people, Angela Merkel did on there behalf, despite there disapproval.
If Obama invades Syria, I'm more likely going to say that the US invaded Syria rather than Obama or the American people. See the difference?
Yes many Germans are against what Merkel has done. Many also support her even though admittedly support is waning.
I have previously spoken of a democratic deficit and disenfranchisement within nations and within supranational bodies like the EU. This has had its part to play in the rise of the far right, as well as the rise of the far left. Polarisation due to all governments whether they say they are left or right wing following the same policies and not representing their citizens.
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Greece should get its ass kicked out of the EU. Its been nothing but a burden since it joined. Alot of European countries are calling for barriers to go up on Greece's Northern boarder, to stop these people traveling North, effectively trapping them inside Greece. The way things are going, that will probably end up happening as well.
Are you fucking kidding me? Germany IS the EU!! The Eurozone would collapse without Germany.
Yes i imagine Schengen is dead all the while the crisis continues.
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The richest nations on Earth have plenty of there own poor community's, we don't need more. Its like i said, these people should claim asylum in the first country of sanctuary. Not travel through countless country's and thousands of miles, just to get to the richest nations. They are motivated by material gain. Not safety.
Thats true that the richest nations have plenty of poor too. Thats absolutely wrong and partly due to the economic structure we have had in place for a long time. If there was greater socialism in our economics, we wouldnt have such disgusting income inequalities and we would have fewer people.
Having poor people does not absolve us from moral responsibilities concerning refugees. Genuine refugees will be accepted, that is right.
Many other countries are taken many times more than Europe as a whole. Lebanon's population is 25% refugee. The influx we are facing now is 0.1% of the EU population. Every country in the world should share the burden, it is not the fault of Syrian civilians that they are refugees. Richer countries have more ability to help. It is in our interests too. If we just think we can isolate/insulate ourselves from it, we are mistaken. Even if we kept refugees stuck in countries that were already filled to capacity like Lebanon, what happens then when Lebanon implodes? Failed states only make the crisis even worse. It is in the West's interest to dilute the crisis as much as possible. Spreading it out and sharing responsibility is the best way of doing that.
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and again i ask.. what do you think would happen if Greece becomes the refugee camp for Europe?
It makes no difference what i think. The likely hood is, is that Greece will become a giant refugee camp cut of from the rest of Europe, by walls and fences. Centers in Greece capable of holding hundreds of thousands of people are all ready being discussed.
As i said above, concentrating the problem only intensifies it. There needs to be proper processing centres throughout Europe. Greece being turned into a refugee camp will probably not receive the funding it needs to function properly. If things fail, what do you think Greece will do to stop refugees traveling north? who says they will be able to control the borders? People smugglers will make more money as more obstacles fall into place.
Bringing Greece to the point of failure is not a good option, it creates greater vulnerabilities for the whole of the EU.
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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