teknix said:

tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

Then why wouldn't you hallucinate if you feel like your about to fall off someplace high?

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It has been theorized and supported through evidence that a flood of glutamate is released during extreme circumstances (hypoxia, etc). This causes cell death because of neuron overactivity. The brain has its own NMDA receptor antagonist that it releases to stop this flood by blocking the NMDA receptors, and this NMDA receptor antagonism is what causes the visuals. This is supported by how people have NDEs on NMDA receptor antagonists like Ketamine and MXE, and all features of NDEs can be replicated using those drugs and other NMDA receptor antagonists.

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So what constitutes "extreme"? I mean people who suffer from NDE are not always conscious before the fact as we hallucinate consciously. I'm sure you see why it is a poor analogy.

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hTx said:

OrgoneConclusion said:

Full article here: http://neardth.com/

Reasons why near death experiences are not proof of life after death

Many people truly believe that near death experiences are proof of life after death and proof of the reality of an immaterial and immortal soul. So does the discussion above, and on other pages of this website provide any proof for these beliefs? Unfortunately for these believing in these things, the discussion on this page, as well as on other pages of this website provide several very powerful reasons disproving these beliefs. I will list these reasons for clarity.
•People expecting to undergo a life-threatening experience undergo different near death experiences than people who undergo an unexpected life-threatening experience. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different religions see different gods and holy figures during their near death experiences. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different countries and cultures are greeted by entirely different relatives during their near death experiences. Why are people living in the USA greeted by their deceased mothers during their near death experiences, while people living in India must be content with guidance by the souls of randomly conscripted deceased strangers during their near death experiences? This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•Reports of veridical observations made during out of body experiences occurring during near death experiences are often cited as proof of the reality of an immaterial human soul, or separable consciousness existing independently of the body. However an immaterial consciousness is incapable of making such observations, which means these are observations are actually made by the senses of the physical body (see the web page on out of body experiences for proof of this).

Concluding remarks

I could go on for much longer, but the final conclusion is evident. Near death experiences are profound and wondrous experiences, but despite the intense and profound emotions and experiences they arouse, they are nonetheless conscious socio-culturally determined hallucinations generated by life-threatening experiences. The consistency of these experiences is rooted in the commonality of human body function, as well as the fundamental socio-cultural desires of all people regardless of race or sex.


Seems the brain does some chemical dance when facing mortality or in extreme shock. The visions are usually consistent with, and confirming of, the beliefs held before the NDE. Duh!

May we close the case now?

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The above is a weak, philosophically biased argument using evidence that shows no evidence to the claim.
Obviously the brain does a chemical dance when facing mortality..it is always dancing in this way.

...of course an NDE would be socio-culturally determined. Also, would you call a lucid dream a hallucination..or a dream?

Most of these scientism types are over-looking the most important FACT.

NDE's happen.

They don't like it when others outside of their philosophical circle claim they are wrong in their newtonian materialistic view of the universe which somehow has ignored the most obvious facet of reality...consciousness. How arrogant a belief to think they are somehow seeing past consciousness into a mechanical machine-like cold reality. It is much more likely they are seeing what they want to see, what the thinker thinks, the prover proves... drawing premature conclusions as always.
Attachments abound, no growth in attachment.

How come not one is asking why, and instead seeking to only prove their POV right? How come not one is looking at relativity? Is it because Einstein came after Newton, quantum theories after Einstein? Einsteins equations show we are all connected, e=mc2, that everything is relative. Is it also possible that NDE's are relative as well as non-local?


Where is the why? What evolutionary role does an NDE play? What does the experience tell us about consciousness? What are the universal prevalent themes in these hallucinations, and why are they there?

Why do people meet God, Jesus, Buddha, deceased relatives, or meet beings they have never even seen before?

Why are they so powerful..and if they are caused by death anxiety..than how is it that NDE's lessen DA and in some cases cure it or in some cases increase it?
They are relative.


What is proof to one is bologne to another.

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Repertoire89 said:

Maybe, I look at them as OBEs. That's it

---

tymoteusz3 said:

hTx said:

OrgoneConclusion said:

Full article here: http://neardth.com/

Reasons why near death experiences are not proof of life after death

Many people truly believe that near death experiences are proof of life after death and proof of the reality of an immaterial and immortal soul. So does the discussion above, and on other pages of this website provide any proof for these beliefs? Unfortunately for these believing in these things, the discussion on this page, as well as on other pages of this website provide several very powerful reasons disproving these beliefs. I will list these reasons for clarity.
•People expecting to undergo a life-threatening experience undergo different near death experiences than people who undergo an unexpected life-threatening experience. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different religions see different gods and holy figures during their near death experiences. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different countries and cultures are greeted by entirely different relatives during their near death experiences. Why are people living in the USA greeted by their deceased mothers during their near death experiences, while people living in India must be content with guidance by the souls of randomly conscripted deceased strangers during their near death experiences? This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•Reports of veridical observations made during out of body experiences occurring during near death experiences are often cited as proof of the reality of an immaterial human soul, or separable consciousness existing independently of the body. However an immaterial consciousness is incapable of making such observations, which means these are observations are actually made by the senses of the physical body (see the web page on out of body experiences for proof of this).

Concluding remarks

I could go on for much longer, but the final conclusion is evident. Near death experiences are profound and wondrous experiences, but despite the intense and profound emotions and experiences they arouse, they are nonetheless conscious socio-culturally determined hallucinations generated by life-threatening experiences. The consistency of these experiences is rooted in the commonality of human body function, as well as the fundamental socio-cultural desires of all people regardless of race or sex.


Seems the brain does some chemical dance when facing mortality or in extreme shock. The visions are usually consistent with, and confirming of, the beliefs held before the NDE. Duh!

May we close the case now?

---

The above is a weak, philosophically biased argument using evidence that shows no evidence to the claim.
Obviously the brain does a chemical dance when facing mortality..it is always dancing in this way.

...of course an NDE would be socio-culturally determined. Also, would you call a lucid dream a hallucination..or a dream?

Most of these scientism types are over-looking the most important FACT.

NDE's happen.

They don't like it when others outside of their philosophical circle claim they are wrong in their newtonian materialistic view of the universe which somehow has ignored the most obvious facet of reality...consciousness. How arrogant a belief to think they are somehow seeing past consciousness into a mechanical machine-like cold reality. It is much more likely they are seeing what they want to see, what the thinker thinks, the prover proves... drawing premature conclusions as always.
Attachments abound, no growth in attachment.

How come not one is asking why, and instead seeking to only prove their POV right? How come not one is looking at relativity? Is it because Einstein came after Newton, quantum theories after Einstein? Einsteins equations show we are all connected, e=mc2, that everything is relative. Is it also possible that NDE's are relative as well as non-local?


Where is the why? What evolutionary role does an NDE play? What does the experience tell us about consciousness? What are the universal prevalent themes in these hallucinations, and why are they there?

Why do people meet God, Jesus, Buddha, deceased relatives, or meet beings they have never even seen before?

Why are they so powerful..and if they are caused by death anxiety..than how is it that NDE's lessen DA and in some cases cure it or in some cases increase it?
They are relative.


What is proof to one is bologne to another.

---

I already explained here why it appears NDEs happen.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18595196#18595196
The principle of Occam's Razor applies here. And who is talking about it being caused by death anxiety?

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teknix said:

What is going on in the brain when a NDE happens doesn't necessarily explain how or why things are being percieved. It just says what the data measurements were.

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teknix said:

I'm not saying the conscious is independent of the brain, you are assuming that.

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teknix said:

Repertoire89 said:

Maybe, I look at them as OBEs. That's it

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What about lucid dreams?

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tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

I'm not saying the conscious is independent of the brain, you are assuming that.

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I didn't assume anything, or say you thought that.
Please address my post here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18595750#18595750

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tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

What is going on in the brain when a NDE happens doesn't necessarily explain how or why things are being percieved. It just says what the data measurements were.

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Like I said, it could be a portal to an alien world. Or it could be as the brain loses communication with the body, it starts compensating. Again, the principles of Occam's Razor apply here. What is the more logical conclusion? That blockage of NMDA receptors cause some god in an afterlife to show a heavenly vision? Or that blockage of those receptors, which we know are used for communication between the brain and the body (well glutamate is the chemical messenger, and the NMDA receptors are the glutamate receptors glutamate binds to), causes the brain to start making up stuff since it stops being able to communicate with the rest of the body.

I chose the simplest and most logical conclusion.

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tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

What is going on in the brain when a NDE happens doesn't necessarily explain how or why things are being percieved. It just says what the data measurements were.

---

Like I said, it could be a portal to an alien world. Or it could be as the brain loses communication with the body, it starts compensating. Again, the principles of Occam's Razor apply here. What is the more logical conclusion? That blockage of NMDA receptors cause some god in an afterlife to show a heavenly vision? Or that blockage of those receptors, which we know are used for communication between the brain and the body (well glutamate is the chemical messenger, and the NMDA receptors are the glutamate receptors glutamate binds to), causes the brain to start making up stuff since it stops being able to communicate with the rest of the body.

I chose the simplest and most logical conclusion.

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hTx said:

You jumped to a conclusion, the evidence is inconclusive. Not one person here is claiming that the brain doesn't do certain things when having ANY experience..this is the material aspect of reality and a real one at that.

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Quote:

As if it was an 'answer' to things.

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There usually is an answer to things

Quote:

No, sorry, it doesn't answer anything. The only evidence it shows is that the brain is doing something different when having an NDE, just as its doing something different when we dream, meditate, run, talk, breathe, not-breathe, move our arms, swim, blink, think, listen to music...

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Quote:

You are being irrational by jumping to such a conclusion, which is not founded with any evidence whatsoever.

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Quote:

Dr. Eben Alexander experienced a profound NDE for a period of seven days while under a coma in which the only functioning part of his brain was essentially his brain stem.

What does this tell you?

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