teknix said:

Then why wouldn't you hallucinate if you feel like your about to fall off someplace high?

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tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

Then why wouldn't you hallucinate if you feel like your about to fall off someplace high?

---

It has been theorized and supported through evidence that a flood of glutamate is released during extreme circumstances (hypoxia, etc). This causes cell death because of neuron overactivity. The brain has its own NMDA receptor antagonist that it releases to stop this flood by blocking the NMDA receptors, and this NMDA receptor antagonism is what causes the visuals. This is supported by how people have NDEs on NMDA receptor antagonists like Ketamine and MXE, and all features of NDEs can be replicated using those drugs and other NMDA receptor antagonists.

---

OrgoneConclusion said:

tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

Then why wouldn't you hallucinate if you feel like your about to fall off someplace high?

---

It has been theorized and supported through evidence that a flood of glutamate is released during extreme circumstances (hypoxia, etc). This causes cell death because of neuron overactivity. The brain has its own NMDA receptor antagonist that it releases to stop this flood by blocking the NMDA receptors, and this NMDA receptor antagonism is what causes the visuals. This is supported by how people have NDEs on NMDA receptor antagonists like Ketamine and MXE, and all features of NDEs can be replicated using those drugs and other NMDA receptor antagonists.

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So if we take ketamine we get to be with Jesus for all eternity?

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Yup 
It's my new religion. I personally guarantee eternal salvation.
only 9.99 / month to join - ketamine not included

OrgoneConclusion said:

Full article here: http://neardth.com/

Reasons why near death experiences are not proof of life after death

Many people truly believe that near death experiences are proof of life after death and proof of the reality of an immaterial and immortal soul. So does the discussion above, and on other pages of this website provide any proof for these beliefs? Unfortunately for these believing in these things, the discussion on this page, as well as on other pages of this website provide several very powerful reasons disproving these beliefs. I will list these reasons for clarity.
•People expecting to undergo a life-threatening experience undergo different near death experiences than people who undergo an unexpected life-threatening experience. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different religions see different gods and holy figures during their near death experiences. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different countries and cultures are greeted by entirely different relatives during their near death experiences. Why are people living in the USA greeted by their deceased mothers during their near death experiences, while people living in India must be content with guidance by the souls of randomly conscripted deceased strangers during their near death experiences? This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•Reports of veridical observations made during out of body experiences occurring during near death experiences are often cited as proof of the reality of an immaterial human soul, or separable consciousness existing independently of the body. However an immaterial consciousness is incapable of making such observations, which means these are observations are actually made by the senses of the physical body (see the web page on out of body experiences for proof of this).

Concluding remarks

I could go on for much longer, but the final conclusion is evident. Near death experiences are profound and wondrous experiences, but despite the intense and profound emotions and experiences they arouse, they are nonetheless conscious socio-culturally determined hallucinations generated by life-threatening experiences. The consistency of these experiences is rooted in the commonality of human body function, as well as the fundamental socio-cultural desires of all people regardless of race or sex.


Seems the brain does some chemical dance when facing mortality or in extreme shock. The visions are usually consistent with, and confirming of, the beliefs held before the NDE. Duh!

May we close the case now?

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tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

Then why wouldn't you hallucinate if you feel like your about to fall off someplace high?

---

It has been theorized and supported through evidence that a flood of glutamate is released during extreme circumstances (hypoxia, etc). This causes cell death because of neuron overactivity. The brain has its own NMDA receptor antagonist that it releases to stop this flood by blocking the NMDA receptors, and this NMDA receptor antagonism is what causes the visuals. This is supported by how people have NDEs on NMDA receptor antagonists like Ketamine and MXE, and all features of NDEs can be replicated using those drugs and other NMDA receptor antagonists.

---

Quote:

And that's pretty much it, pretty flimsy

---

Repertoire89 said:

tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

Then why wouldn't you hallucinate if you feel like your about to fall off someplace high?

---

It has been theorized and supported through evidence that a flood of glutamate is released during extreme circumstances (hypoxia, etc). This causes cell death because of neuron overactivity. The brain has its own NMDA receptor antagonist that it releases to stop this flood by blocking the NMDA receptors, and this NMDA receptor antagonism is what causes the visuals. This is supported by how people have NDEs on NMDA receptor antagonists like Ketamine and MXE, and all features of NDEs can be replicated using those drugs and other NMDA receptor antagonists.

---

This wouldn't contradict anything if you're one of the many who look at all physical phenomena (including the activity of the brain) as having an external non-physical force behind it.
An example being, consciousness not deriving from the body and using the eyes to perceive the physical. The eyes and all physical mechanics behind it, acting the same way as a steering wheel.

Its a simple case and an old one, very old.

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tymoteusz3 said:

How would it not contradict anything? If you think that consciousness is controlled by an external non-physical force behind it, then antagonizing a receptor is not going to change consciousness.

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OrgoneConclusion said:

Quote:

And that's pretty much it, pretty flimsy

---

Not as flimsy as believing a live brain undergoing trauma indicates what a decomposed brain might experience.

---

Repertoire89 said:

OrgoneConclusion said:

Full article here: http://neardth.com/

Reasons why near death experiences are not proof of life after death

Many people truly believe that near death experiences are proof of life after death and proof of the reality of an immaterial and immortal soul. So does the discussion above, and on other pages of this website provide any proof for these beliefs? Unfortunately for these believing in these things, the discussion on this page, as well as on other pages of this website provide several very powerful reasons disproving these beliefs. I will list these reasons for clarity.
•People expecting to undergo a life-threatening experience undergo different near death experiences than people who undergo an unexpected life-threatening experience. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different religions see different gods and holy figures during their near death experiences. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different countries and cultures are greeted by entirely different relatives during their near death experiences. Why are people living in the USA greeted by their deceased mothers during their near death experiences, while people living in India must be content with guidance by the souls of randomly conscripted deceased strangers during their near death experiences? This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•Reports of veridical observations made during out of body experiences occurring during near death experiences are often cited as proof of the reality of an immaterial human soul, or separable consciousness existing independently of the body. However an immaterial consciousness is incapable of making such observations, which means these are observations are actually made by the senses of the physical body (see the web page on out of body experiences for proof of this).

Concluding remarks

I could go on for much longer, but the final conclusion is evident. Near death experiences are profound and wondrous experiences, but despite the intense and profound emotions and experiences they arouse, they are nonetheless conscious socio-culturally determined hallucinations generated by life-threatening experiences. The consistency of these experiences is rooted in the commonality of human body function, as well as the fundamental socio-cultural desires of all people regardless of race or sex.


Seems the brain does some chemical dance when facing mortality or in extreme shock. The visions are usually consistent with, and confirming of, the beliefs held before the NDE. Duh!

May we close the case now?

---

This is a surprisingly weak case, disappointed.
Where does the assumption that life after death would be the same for everyone come from? Its certainly not shared by everyone
As far as the veridical observations, simply disagreeing is not an argument.

And that's pretty much it, pretty flimsy

---

Rool Kat said:

Repertoire89 said:

OrgoneConclusion said:

Full article here: http://neardth.com/

Reasons why near death experiences are not proof of life after death

Many people truly believe that near death experiences are proof of life after death and proof of the reality of an immaterial and immortal soul. So does the discussion above, and on other pages of this website provide any proof for these beliefs? Unfortunately for these believing in these things, the discussion on this page, as well as on other pages of this website provide several very powerful reasons disproving these beliefs. I will list these reasons for clarity.
•People expecting to undergo a life-threatening experience undergo different near death experiences than people who undergo an unexpected life-threatening experience. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different religions see different gods and holy figures during their near death experiences. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different countries and cultures are greeted by entirely different relatives during their near death experiences. Why are people living in the USA greeted by their deceased mothers during their near death experiences, while people living in India must be content with guidance by the souls of randomly conscripted deceased strangers during their near death experiences? This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•Reports of veridical observations made during out of body experiences occurring during near death experiences are often cited as proof of the reality of an immaterial human soul, or separable consciousness existing independently of the body. However an immaterial consciousness is incapable of making such observations, which means these are observations are actually made by the senses of the physical body (see the web page on out of body experiences for proof of this).

Concluding remarks

I could go on for much longer, but the final conclusion is evident. Near death experiences are profound and wondrous experiences, but despite the intense and profound emotions and experiences they arouse, they are nonetheless conscious socio-culturally determined hallucinations generated by life-threatening experiences. The consistency of these experiences is rooted in the commonality of human body function, as well as the fundamental socio-cultural desires of all people regardless of race or sex.


Seems the brain does some chemical dance when facing mortality or in extreme shock. The visions are usually consistent with, and confirming of, the beliefs held before the NDE. Duh!

May we close the case now?

---

This is a surprisingly weak case, disappointed.
Where does the assumption that life after death would be the same for everyone come from? Its certainly not shared by everyone
As far as the veridical observations, simply disagreeing is not an argument.

And that's pretty much it, pretty flimsy

---

There's a much more detailed response that debunks the case quoted in the OP, but your succinct remarks above serve nicely as a precis of that rebuttal.

Each premis in the op is an unsubstantiated assertion.  Fine for expressing one's opinion, but the structure of any case built based on them is equally ethereal and supports nothing beyond opinion.  One, I should add, I disagree with.

No offense to you, OC.  But no, the case is definitely not closed in this case.

---

OrgoneConclusion said:

Full article here: http://neardth.com/

Reasons why near death experiences are not proof of life after death

Many people truly believe that near death experiences are proof of life after death and proof of the reality of an immaterial and immortal soul. So does the discussion above, and on other pages of this website provide any proof for these beliefs? Unfortunately for these believing in these things, the discussion on this page, as well as on other pages of this website provide several very powerful reasons disproving these beliefs. I will list these reasons for clarity.
•People expecting to undergo a life-threatening experience undergo different near death experiences than people who undergo an unexpected life-threatening experience. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different religions see different gods and holy figures during their near death experiences. This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•People of different countries and cultures are greeted by entirely different relatives during their near death experiences. Why are people living in the USA greeted by their deceased mothers during their near death experiences, while people living in India must be content with guidance by the souls of randomly conscripted deceased strangers during their near death experiences? This is inconsistent with the belief in a life after death which is the same for all people.
•Reports of veridical observations made during out of body experiences occurring during near death experiences are often cited as proof of the reality of an immaterial human soul, or separable consciousness existing independently of the body. However an immaterial consciousness is incapable of making such observations, which means these are observations are actually made by the senses of the physical body (see the web page on out of body experiences for proof of this).

Concluding remarks

I could go on for much longer, but the final conclusion is evident. Near death experiences are profound and wondrous experiences, but despite the intense and profound emotions and experiences they arouse, they are nonetheless conscious socio-culturally determined hallucinations generated by life-threatening experiences. The consistency of these experiences is rooted in the commonality of human body function, as well as the fundamental socio-cultural desires of all people regardless of race or sex.


Seems the brain does some chemical dance when facing mortality or in extreme shock. The visions are usually consistent with, and confirming of, the beliefs held before the NDE. Duh!

May we close the case now?

---

Quote:

tymoteusz3 said:

Repertoire89 said:

tymoteusz3 said:

How would it not contradict anything? If you think that consciousness is controlled by an external non-physical force behind it, then antagonizing a receptor is not going to change consciousness.

---

That's my point there, just because you can manipulate consciousness through physical means does not mean consciousness would owe existence to the brain. Its an assumption, and before I heard that argument my belief was that consciousness could be manipulated through physical means (smoking a joint), not alone in that and it goes hand in hand with the idea of consciousness being manipulated through physical means of whatever nature.
The idea is that consciousness interacts with the body through the brain and its possible experiences are filtered through the mechanisms of the brain. Yet the base consciousness itself exists externally.

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But this thread isn't about consciousness owing its existence to the brain but about how NDEs are not proof of life after death. But I don't see any proof for the notion that base consciousness itself exists externally (but that's a separate thread topic)...

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tymoteusz3 said:

teknix said:

Then why wouldn't you hallucinate if you feel like your about to fall off someplace high?

---

It has been theorized and supported through evidence that a flood of glutamate is released during extreme circumstances (hypoxia, etc). This causes cell death because of neuron overactivity. The brain has its own NMDA receptor antagonist that it releases to stop this flood by blocking the NMDA receptors, and this NMDA receptor antagonism is what causes the visuals. This is supported by how people have NDEs on NMDA receptor antagonists like Ketamine and MXE, and all features of NDEs can be replicated using those drugs and other NMDA receptor antagonists.

---