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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Oligarchy and Inheritance
    #1653416 - 06/22/03 01:24 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

So Georgie Porgie and his fascist friends are erasing the inheritance tax. Anybody who isn't upper class should by now have figured out that they (the current neocon rulers) don't give a fuck about anybody but the rich, the elite, the ruling class.

Inheritance creates an oligarchic society. Think about it - your kid will probably start life with pretty much nothing, whereas baby Rockefeller, or baby Bush, or baby Cheney, or whoever, will start with millions. Life for them will be about maintaining their wealth, rather than scrambling for enough money to survive and retire. With money, you can make money, so at the very least the upper class can live life without diminishing their nest egg if they have any brains whatsoever. Money also gives you power, without any other virtues being necessary.

What is the solution? I say set a cap on the amount that can be inherited - say, 200k including property. The rest is given directly (note, not through the government) to nonprofit agencies working to boost the fortunes of the lower classes, through education, transit to employment schemes, etc etc. This will serve to bring the lower classes up, and the upper classes down to the middle. Naturally this will outrage many of you...so what do you suggest? Do you like oligarchy? Do you like there being an all powerful elite from whom 98% of our politicians originate, & our CEOs come from? (Sure, yehyeh it's natural - but is it desirable?)



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1653449 - 06/22/03 01:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

If you earned it, it's yours to do with as you wish.

If giving it to the government is what you want to do with money you have earned, which has already been taxed, you feel free.

I don't want them stealing money I worked for.

Nor do I wish them to steal it and then hand it over to groups that will distribute it to fucks who can't make it on their own.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1653461 - 06/22/03 01:50 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

kids of the rich did not earn it.
how about all inheritance is put into a fund that pays for every citizens education through college and pays for everyones medical care? that is what i think should be done.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


Edited by 1stimer (06/22/03 01:51 PM)


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1653466 - 06/22/03 01:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

LDS: do you like the fact that our society is an ever intensifying oligarchy?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: 1stimer]
    #1653600 - 06/22/03 03:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kids of the rich did not earn it.



I didn't say they did. I said those who earn it should be able to decide where it goes. If that means leaving to your kids or whomever, so be it.


Quote:

how about all inheritance is put into a fund that pays for every citizens education through college and pays for everyones medical care?



No.


Quote:

that is what i think should be done.



So what.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1653605 - 06/22/03 03:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

somebodyelse said:
LDS: do you like the fact that our society is an ever intensifying oligarchy?



1st, it's not.

2nd, even if it was it's better than it turning into a socialist or communist "utopia" which is what that idea boils down to.

If people earn it, no-one has the right to take it away.

I find for the most part, people who are in favor of such nonsense are too fucking lazy to do whats necessary to get it, so they don't want anyone else to have it either.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1653782 - 06/22/03 04:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, please. You deny the existence of a "ruling class" which is maintained through wealth? You think it is just coincidence that we have generation after generation out of the same 400 families in congress, graduating yale, running the major companies?

No-one is taking it away from you. You're dead. If your kid hasn't earned it, what right do they have to the money? (Note also that my proposal doesn't take *all* of the money from them. They still receive a generous sum. But, they don't receive enough to pass your powerful position on to them.

Let me guess - you live in a predominantly white middle class suburb and have never visited an inner city ghetto, or a down on the tooth trailer park, and seen and/or experienced life at the bottom of the ladder. Your parents are both republicans also. Let me see - your mother is in real estate, your father a middle manager at a local corporation. They bought you a car when you were 18. Surprise me.

The belief that everybody has an equal opportunity in this society, i.e. the American Dream, is fallacious. Those at the bottom often do not have the opportunity to even find steady employment paying better than minimum wage. And in many cases they are at the bottom for precisely the historical reasons that the rich find themselves at the top - fortunes built on the backs of exploited workers and/or slaves, and handed down through the generations.

How many successful entrpeneurs can *you* name who rose from the bottom of the pack? How many black CEOs are there who grew up in inner city ghettos?



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1653929 - 06/22/03 05:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You're dead. If your kid hasn't earned it, what right do they have to the money?



Far more right than you or the government has to it.


Quote:

Let me guess - you live in a predominantly white middle class suburb



Nope, the town I live in is predominantly lower middle class.


Quote:

and have never visited an inner city ghetto,



Wrong again. I've worked in the poorest parts of N.E. New Jersey, the Bronx, and Harlem. Then a few years in the Pine Barrens of NJ where there is little money.


Quote:

or a down on the tooth trailer park,


My mother lives in one.


Quote:

and seen and/or experienced life at the bottom of the ladder.



Wrong again Bucko. I've been so broke I've feared losing everything.


Quote:

Your parents are both republicans also.



Dad is, Mom isn't.

Quote:

Let me see - your mother is in real estate,



She was for awhile but she didn't make any money at it because she sucked at it.


Quote:

your father a middle manager at a local corporation.



Sorry happy, wrong again. He was a salesman for years, but through hard work and long hours wound up owning his own business. He's retired now.


Quote:

They bought you a car when you were 18.



You're not very good at this. I earned my first car at 16 by working 2 jobs while still in school.

Quote:

Surprise me.



I'm sure I already did.



Quote:

The belief that everybody has an equal opportunity in this society, i.e. the American Dream, is fallacious.



Actually the belief they don't is born of ignorance and libbie brain washing.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1653985 - 06/22/03 06:20 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I don't have a problem with the upper upper class being able to buy ludicrously expensive luxury items. They can have all the stuff they want. It's the fact that without some kind of controlls, they gain the power to controll people's lives.

That's why I don't have a problem with pulling the chair out from under them once in a while.


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OfflineMoronacracy
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1654123 - 06/22/03 07:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

When One makes 20 Million, Ten Thousand people lose.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: Moronacracy]
    #1654203 - 06/22/03 08:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

That's not nessisarily true. When we say that someone "Makes" money we usually are referring to the fact that they earn money, but the fact of the matter is they actually did create wealth rather than just accumulate already existing wealth.

Someone doesn't have to lose in order for someone else to gain. It's when someone elses prosperity inhibits the prosperity of others that controlls need to be in place.


--------------------


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1654251 - 06/22/03 08:30 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Damn, I'm no miss cleo (I got the real estate part tho...not all bad :wink:). I'm just trying to understand how you formed your views. Aren't you essentially saying "Fuck the poor (they're lazy), let the rich exploit all they want, it's a free society"?


Quote:


****The belief that everybody has an equal opportunity in this society, i.e. the American Dream, is fallacious.

Actually the belief they don't is born of ignorance and libbie brain washing.





Is that what Limbaugh told you? On what basis do you make that statement? Show me the statistics that show that there is a substantial upward movement in society (i.e. between the lower and upper middle at least of the classes); show me that there isn't an entrenched and relatively small group of historically privileged families which holds the large percentage of the power and and larger percentage of the wealth (aka an oligarchy)....or just describe to me the logically sound reasoning behind your conviction...and I might even vote Bush in the next election.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1654622 - 06/22/03 10:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

somebodyelse asks:

Show me the statistics that show that there is a substantial upward movement in society (i.e. between the lower and upper middle at least of the classes);

Okay.

W. Michael Cox, vice president of the Federal Reserve Bank in Dallas and Richard Alm, a Dallas Morning News reporter, reported on a University of Michigan Survey consisting of detailed data from a sample of 50,000 Americans collected since 1968. Cox and Alm focused on the period for which the most complete data was available -- 1975 to 1991.

The University of Michigan study shows that only 5 percent of those in the bottom fifth of the income distribution in 1975 were still there in 1991 -- that's one per cent of Americans. Only one-half of one percent (0.5 percent) of the sample was in the bottom quintile for every year of the 15-year study. What happened to the rest? They moved up to the top three-fifths of the income distribution -- middle class or higher.

Further, three out of 10 of the lowest income earners in 1975 moved up into the top fifth of income earners by 1991. Those who were "poor" in 1975 had an inflation-adjusted gain of $27,745 in average income by 1991. Workers who were in the top fifth of income earners in 1975 were better off in 1991 by an average of only $4,354.

In fact, over the study period (1975-1991), the average income in the poorest quintile grew 2,196 percent while the average income in the richest quintile grew only 8.7 percent.

There are a number of studies corroborating these results. For instance, Cox and Alm also refer to a 1992 US Treasury Department study (pp. 76-78) examining tax returns between 1979 and 1988, which found that 86 percent of those in the lowest income bracket moved to a higher grouping. Two-thirds of them reached the middle strata or above, with almost 15 percent making it all the way to the top fifth of income earners over the study period.

Poverty is largely a transitory experience for people who are willing to work, as Labor Department data confirms. In the early '90s, the median duration of poverty was 4.2 months. Only a third of the 36 million Americans the Bureau of Census classifies as poor had been below the poverty line for 24 or more months. This boils down to a long-term poverty rate of 4 percent, compared to the overall official rate of 13.3 percent in 1997.

Just because you know where a person ended up in life is no guarantee that you can predict where he started. And knowing where a person starts out in life does not control where he ends up.

pinky


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1655058 - 06/23/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

what about gifts? if i give money to someone while i'm still alive, how much of that should they be allowed to tax? what if i give it in installments over time? then can i give more than $200,000?

i see what you're saying here, but people should have the right to give their money to whomever they want when they die (or before for that matter). if i save up my whole life so my children can inherit a huge estate, isn't that between me and them? I already paid income tax on it, no? that money's mine to spend on whatever i want.

what if instead of giving a million bucks to my kid, i buy a pencil from him for a million bucks? would he have to pay sales tax or inheritance tax or income tax? if i instead just kept the money locked away and gave it to no one, no tax would get taken out of it... seems silly for the government to dig into our pockets because money that was mine is now my son's.

and it's not as though this money that people inherit just goes poof and disappears. it gets spent on stuff. it ends up someplace else. someone has a job because my rich heirs are going to hire a butler...

rich spoiled brats are just an unfortunate part of a free society.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1655613 - 06/23/03 08:12 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i see you have a problem with everyone having an education and healthcare. why is that? i guess you dont care about human dignity or the sanctity of life or level playing fields or self determination.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Anonymous

Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: 1stimer]
    #1655655 - 06/23/03 09:03 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

no, he's got no problem with people getting an education and healthcare. what he has a problem with is some people using the state as a tool to steal money from other people in order to pay for it.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: ]
    #1655835 - 06/23/03 02:57 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
What he said.

I have a problem with the government sticking their noses into programs that are not constitutionally allow-able.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1655856 - 06/23/03 03:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well i think the accumulation of wealth as ones driving force in life would lead to an unfufilling and stale existance. As would passing that wealth onto ones children....but if they want to, let them...its thier money afterall.



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1655862 - 06/23/03 03:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Well i think the accumulation of wealth as ones driving force in life would lead to an unfufilling and stale existance.



If that was the only driving force, then POSSIBLY.

I think that would depend more on the person and what they do with the wealth.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Oligarchy and Inheritance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1655869 - 06/23/03 03:12 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think that would depend more on the person and what they do with the wealth. 




Indeed, but im not about to work most of my life trying to accumulate it. :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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