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Re: Latest "faster than the speed of light" claims wrong (again) [Re: Maverick]
    #7308256 -

I understand that, but why can't people think of things as Faster than the speed of light?

People CAN think of traveling faster than light. They can also think of pieces of wood -4 meters long.

How do you build a house with a piece of wood -4 meters long? The answer is NOT "you can't". The answer is "that's a meaningless question"!

Like we used to think you couldn't go faster than the speed of sound

No competent scientist ever said that nothing can exceed the speed of sound. It was laypeople who didn't understand physics who said the sound barrier couldn't be broken.

Those same people ignorant of science said, when trains were invented, that if a human traveled faster than about 50 miles per hour, the 'incredible' speed would kill them. Again, scientists knew better because for one thing, the Earth orbits faster than 50 miles per hour and we're not dying. :smirk:

The speed of sound was only a very hard engineering problem, not a fundamental limiting property of the universe. No fluid dynamics equations give meaningless results for speeds faster than sound.

In fact, before the sound barrier was broken, there already existed a device that exceeded the speed of sound: a whip.

The crack a whip makes is the tip creating a tiny sonic boom as it travels faster than sound. So scientists knew that if a whip could do it, it was just a matter of building a powerful enough engine and figuring out how to shape the airplane. Both hard problems, but not impossible problems.

The light speed barrier can't be broken by more advanced technology in the same way that no technology, no matter how advanced, will allow you to take 5 apples out of a box that contains only 3 apples. It's the same kind of problem.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Latest "faster than the speed of light" claims wrong (again) [Re: Diploid]
    #7309707 -

Does anyone have any resources online that go more in depth when talking about theory's of exceeding the speed of light?

This stuff really fascinates me, thank you all for sharing.


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"Those who dance are considered insane by those who cannot hear the music." - George Carlin

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Re: Latest "faster than the speed of light" claims wrong (again) [Re: DepthToTheCore]
    #7309919 -

How much math have you taken in school? Algebra? Calculus? Matrices?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Latest "faster than the speed of light" claims wrong (again) [Re: Diploid]
    #7312968 -

Very little to be honest, a little algebra, but im keen to learn, although im sure its not basic addition haha.

More so the concepts that you were discussing is what im interested in, especially the part where people spoke about causality (things happening before you have actually done them).


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"Those who dance are considered insane by those who cannot hear the music." - George Carlin

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Re: Latest "faster than the speed of light" claims wrong (again) [Re: DepthToTheCore]
    #7313128 -

> Very little to be honest, a little algebra

In terms of basic algebra, this is the problem... when we work out all the complex mathematics, we end up with a simple square root, sqrt(1-[v^2/c^2]) in the equation where v^2 is the velocity squared and c^2 is the speed of light squared. If the value of v is greater than the value of c, we end up taking the square root of a negative number, which is undefined in mathematics.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Latest "faster than the speed of light" claims wrong (again) [Re: Seuss]
    #7313316 -

Actually, you can take the square root of a negative number, but the result doesn't make sense when applied to mass.

There's a good algebra-only tutorial here if anyone's interested:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/relativity/specialrel.html


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Latest "faster than the speed of light" claims wrong (again) [Re: Diploid]
    #7313368 -

By the way, just to be clear. No one is saying that it is absolutely impossible to travel faster than light. Scientists don't use the word 'impossible' except figuratively.

But if some day someone does manage to demonstrate superluminal speed, it would invalidate pretty much all of physics.

One of the basic assumptions on which physics is built is that cause ALWAYS happens before an effect. You ALWAYS start a trip before you reach the destination. This seems pretty obvious, but physics leaves nothing to chance, and so this assumption is an explicit part of every experiment, even though it seems obvious. This is called Causality.

If someone ever demonstrates superluminal speed, they would break Causality and so every experiment ever done would be rendered incomplete or invalid.

So far, no experiment has suggested the slightest possibility that Causality ever breaks (read: the speed of light is exceeded), so it's generally accepted as being correct and few physicists waste time trying to disprove it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #7313421 -

HagbardCeline said:
The reason they're saying that is because as you approach the speed of light, time slows down, if you were able to exceed it, according to relativity you would actually begin moving backward through time. So you could actually arrive before you left.


It doesn't make any sense to talk of going "faster" than the speed of light...because you are always traveling at the speed of light! In space-time you only have one speed from which you can never deviate.

If you travel at the speed of light through space, you do not travel at all through time. Likewise if you sit still in space, you will travel at the speed of light through time. In this way your speed in space-time is always equal to the speed of light.

So you can't travel faster than light because your space-time velocity always is the speed of light, and you are only changing how much of your speed you put into either space or time.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: trendal]
    #7313977 -

and then comes the question of " can we travel at the speed of thought"

this is brainfood


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I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: John Smith]
    #7314042 -

Right... :smirk:

The speed of thought is actually quite slow. Nerve impulses only travel at 20-30 m/s, and conscious thought must occur between a vast number of nerve cells...

Silicon is faster than carbon! :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: trendal]
    #7315173 -

I dont think it has been proven that nerve impulse speed is the speed of thought.

we cant even prove that our brain makes the thoughts,not so much as measure their speed.

just ask yourself,how long does it takes for your thought to be perceived by you.

In other words,how much time it takes you to realize you thought something...

its fucked up,I know


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I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: John Smith]
    #7315226 -

Well it may feel instant to me...but I have no delusions about the speed of thought. It's slow compared to what a computer can do (as far as a computer can do it...).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: trendal]
    #7315311 -

Lets say you can go at the speed of light towards a planet, lets call it Planet X, it is 1 light year away.

While you are traveling out, time looks normal to you. You make it to planet X, stay a week, and travel back at light speed. How long has it been for the people on earth? How long has it been for you, who traveled?

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: xFrockx]
    #7315334 -

While you are traveling out, time looks normal to you.

No. If you were to travel at the speed of light time would not flow for you at all. You couldn't actually do this...so this is all hypothetical.

You make it to planet X, stay a week, and travel back at light speed. How long has it been for the people on earth? How long has it been for you, who traveled?

You would make it back in just over 2 years and 1 week, Earth time. To you it would seem like you started at Earth, were instantly transported to Planet X were you spent one week enjoying the sites and the occasional pan-galactic gargle blaster, and then were instantly transported back to Earth.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: xFrockx]
    #7315338 -

You cant travel at light speed, so your situation would never happen.

To find the time that passed for a situation that could happen, apply the time dilation formula (seuss derived it a few posts up).


Note: Applying this formula ignores general relativity effects of the accelerating up to 99% light speed and then back to 'rest'. But thats ok, its still a good approximation.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: xFrockx]
    #7315372 -

How long has it been for the people on earth? How long has it been for you, who traveled?

There's a cool simulation of your question here:

http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph11e/timedilation.htm

You can use the buttons to change the speed of the simulated rocket up to 0.999999 times the speed of light and observe how the wristwatch on the guy riding in the rocket compares with that of the guy who stays on earth.

For speeds greater than 0.999999 times the speed of light, plug numbers into the equation below the simulator.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: Diploid]
    #7315397 -

Ok, makes sense. Would your body age as if it were on earth? Or would you age as time passed for you? Would near-light speed travel be a way to live thousands of earth years? What if you were to orbit a fixed point at light speed, would the effects still be the same?

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: xFrockx]
    #7315407 -

Quote:
Would near-light speed travel be a way to live thousands of earth years?

Yes.

Quote:
What if you were to orbit a fixed point at light speed, would the effects still be the same?

near light speed right? Yes time dilation still has an effect. But that is a much more complicated case, because when rotating you are being accelerated. Special relativity only deals with situations where you are not being accelerated. To explore what happens when undergoing acceleration, we need to look to general relativity.

General Relativity is much harder to understand/work with than special relativity. Special relativity can be done with only simple algebra, where general relativity usually requires graduate school level math. An interesting aspect of general relativity though, is that acceleration and the force of gravity play the same role in time dilation. In other words, whatever effect you get from being accelerated, you get the same effect from being in a gravitational field.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: xFrockx]
    #7315409 -

Would your body age as if it were on earth?

It would age as time passed for you. Your body experiences time with you.

So, if you go fast enough, your twin on Earth will experience living 80 years or so, then die of old age. Meanwhile, you on the rocket will experience 5 minutes passed then your round trip ends and you find your now-elderly dead twin.

This was Einstein's penetrating insight. There are some experiments in particle physics that show particles traveling a lot farther before decaying than particle theory says they should.

It turns out that speeds are expressed in dimensions of distance per time. Miles per hour, for exmaple. Or kilometers per hour, meters per second, and so on.

Everyone was thinking the distance is wrong, but Einstein thought outside the box and asked: what if the experimentally observed distance agrees with the theory, but it's the time that's changed?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: "We have broken the speed of light" [Re: Diploid]
    #7316145 -

I dont understand what the speed your traveling at effects your time/age.

Heres what i mean= If I constantly ran instead of walked though my entire life and I had a twin that walked instead of ran then he would age/die before i did?

I also dont understand how time and light are related but I guess noone knows.

Like light is JUST light right? Its simply different just Light thats all,

why does the speed of light effect time? and not the speed of a cow?

Also another example of my first question=

Insted of freezing myself to live and see the furure why not make a

"twirl a whirl" which is just a seat that i sit in that spins realllly fast like almost the speed of light? I would stay in it for a couple seconds then get out and be in the future.

Again if i had a twin and got in a amusmant park ride that moves fast then got off of it wouldent i be younger then my twin?

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