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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinepeace_n_love
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Religion
    #5423803 - 03/20/06 10:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I know that some people will probably be offended by what I say but I truly am not trying to be offensive. Anyways, my understanding of religion is to come in contact with your spiritual side and achieve a sense of inner peace. I am not affiliated with any certain religion however I would consider myself a very spiritual person. In saying that, my experiences with spirituality have been very unique and personal and I find it hard to see how anybody can follow a certain religion and still be spiritual. Because to me spirituality is so subjective and unique to the individual that it is absolutly impossible to follow such a common or general set of morals and achieve any spirituality. Basically I believe that religion, in many aspects contradicts spirituality. I'm interested to hear what you think. And again i'm sorry if I offended anybody, it was not my intention.

Peacefulness.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Religion [Re: peace_n_love]
    #5423810 - 03/20/06 10:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

why do you think it's so unique?


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Offlinepeace_n_love
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Re: Religion [Re: Deviate]
    #5423841 - 03/20/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Because people are unique.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Religion [Re: peace_n_love]
    #5423941 - 03/20/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I very much agree with you P 'n L. Perople everywhere make the mistake of considering religion to be a belief when really it is an organization created to manage the people of a philosophy and act as an authorative concept interpreter.

Religion's existence is mostly counter-productive to the ideals is trys to promote, and the end result is always that the emphasis is taken away from the philosophy's message and instead placed on the figurehead of the religion.

So yes, religion is anti-spiritual.




By the way, say "P 'n L" really fast and it sounds like "penal," heh heh.  :grin:


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Offlinepeace_n_love
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Re: Religion [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5423973 - 03/20/06 11:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Disco Cat, I envy your linguistic skills. You said that much better than I, and in half the words at that.

Peace. :thumbup:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Religion [Re: peace_n_love]
    #5423997 - 03/20/06 11:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Believe it or not folks, you can be a spiritual Atheist.

:smile:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Religion [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5424046 - 03/20/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Believe it or not folks, you can be a spiritual Atheist.

:smile:



I can believe that.  What I have trouble believing is that you can be a spiritual egoist.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #5424120 - 03/20/06 11:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Spirituality is the act of alert introspection, which entails questioning our deepest aspects of our mind, lives and ethics.

Spirituality is enhancing [or for some, rebuilding] our sense of self, reinforcing it with four foremost values: rationality, productiveness, pride, and benevolence.

And as Egoism is simply the doctrine which holds that one's own life is the basis for moral action, there is no reason why one cannot be a spiritual adherent of egoism.

But of course, you have something to say to the contrary?

Let's have it.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Religion [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5424183 - 03/21/06 12:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Spirituality is enhancing [or for some, rebuilding] our sense of self, reinforcing it with four foremost values: rationality, productiveness, pride, and benevolence.

And as Egoism is simply the doctrine which holds that one's own life is the basis for moral action, there is no reason why one cannot be a spiritual adherent of egoism.



You mentioned benevolence. It seems to me that benevolence requires regard for others, rather than focus on oneself. I do agree that understanding yourself is important to spirituality, but I think that understanding must include an understanding of one's interconnectedness with others. Seeing oneself as fundamentally independent of others is counterproductive to spiritual development, IMHO.


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Offlinepeace_n_love
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Re: Religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #5424203 - 03/21/06 12:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This is exactly what my post was getting at, the fact that every individual has a slightly different perspective on spirituality thus making it impossible to conform religion into a "one size fits all" situation. With spirituality there is no right and wrong unless you make it so.

Peacefulness.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #5424293 - 03/21/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Benevolence leads to better relationships and more opportunities to trade values. It's in your interest to be benevolent.

You and I both agree that it is in our self-interest to understand our relationship to others in the present Set of Reality.

I do not, however, mean to imply that I am absolutely independent of other people. I am quite confident that my existence has a certain level of dependence upon other existing individuals and existents. But to what degree is my own existence contingent upon my own choices and volition? To such a high degree, that I become acutely cognizant of the fact that I must consciously decide that which advances my life, that which makes me stronger, healthier, more successful, more vital and flourishing as the morally good. That which is destructive to my life is the morally bad.

You can see, therefore, that my spirituality and morality is egoistic, for it is a code of selfishness - in the strict, literal sense of that word: that which is good for my self.

Of course, to be spiritual and morally just, I must act in my own rational self-interest. Self-interest is not a license "to do as I please" - quite the contrary. Irrational "selfishness" is a contradiction in terms.

In other words, I must be a man of principle, which it seems, is an uncommon characteristic in the majority today. Rather, the majority live in a world of "concretes", in a sort of anti-conceptual mentality [conceptual thinking requires a long-range chain of hierarchal concepts], and live [more or less] on whims, only to wonder why they do the things they do. In order to live in my rational self-interest, I must consciously choose what rational principles of ethics shall guide my actions in any given moment, such as focus/volition, self reliance/independence, productiveness, justice, etc. This necessitates long-range effects - and to my favor.

A 'comical' example [which comes to mind mostly because others have pointed this out already] of such habitual excellence, is in Batman Begins. Bruce Wayne doesn't succumb to the immediate gratification of the anti-conceptual actions or mentality pressured upon him by his (evil) "teacher" - rather, he sticks to the proven, objective, rational virtues, values and principles of ethics, read: he is a conceptual being, read: a man of principle, read: man of freedom, read: free man.





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Religion [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5427063 - 03/21/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Because to me spirituality is so subjective and unique to the individual that it is absolutly impossible to follow such a common or general set of morals and achieve any spirituality.




depends on the "religion." Some are more open to personal interpretation, and as far as I can tell none of the religions have been officially endorsed by their respective gods so its really up in the air anyways.

Religion can be subjective as well, accomodating different needs of different people, depending on their cultures.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinecookeman
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Re: Religion [Re: peace_n_love]
    #5427092 - 03/21/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I feel like religion can be a good thing provided people don't just become programmed to believe everything within the religion to be completely true without any logical thinking done by themselves. I think it's completely cool if someone is a particular religion, but they should still be able to think for themselves and question their religion at any point without feeling bad or having people get mad at them.


--------------------
“Let’s put it this way – to lump psychedelic mushrooms into the same group as methamphetamine is like lumping the Bible into the same group as Mein Kampf.
I mean shit; they’re both books, right?”

Joe Rogan


R.I.P. - "Bones" - One of the greatest people I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know and become friends with.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Religion [Re: peace_n_love]
    #5428290 - 03/21/06 11:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't like any belief system which tries to convince me it knows what is really going on.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Religion [Re: peace_n_love]
    #5428821 - 03/22/06 07:00 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

peace_n_love said:
I know that some people will probably be offended by what I say but I truly am not trying to be offensive. Anyways, my understanding of religion is to come in contact with your spiritual side and achieve a sense of inner peace. I am not affiliated with any certain religion however I would consider myself a very spiritual person. In saying that, my experiences with spirituality have been very unique and personal and I find it hard to see how anybody can follow a certain religion and still be spiritual. Because to me spirituality is so subjective and unique to the individual that it is absolutly impossible to follow such a common or general set of morals and achieve any spirituality. Basically I believe that religion, in many aspects contradicts spirituality. I'm interested to hear what you think. And again i'm sorry if I offended anybody, it was not my intention.




If your talking about organized religion, then I will agree with you.

However.....virtually ALL religions preach the same core values. The problem comes when a certain group of people claim that their interpretation of the religious text is the ONLY TRUE interpretation, and begin to condemn other people for not conforming to their world view. :shake:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflinePeyote_Princess
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Re: Religion [Re: cookeman]
    #5428858 - 03/22/06 07:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cookeman said:
I feel like religion can be a good thing provided people don't just become programmed to believe everything within the religion to be completely true without any logical thinking done by themselves. I think it's completely cool if someone is a particular religion, but they should still be able to think for themselves and question their religion at any point without feeling bad or having people get mad at them.




Yes... but that's more the fault of people's approach to a given religion I think.  Religions can be a positive force for education and learning; think of the Christian ethos that began many of the UK's universities and schools, either through the Church directly, or the donations made by believing benefactors.  Or the Islamic approach to medicine, which made medicine in the Arab world far more advanced than  the UK in the Middle Ages.

I hate the idea of blind faith; someone believing something just because they heard it from the pulpit, or Mumy said so - but faith and religion is there able to be examined and analysed (look at me - I'm a theology student!)

1 Peter 3v15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

As an interesting side note: to be 'religious' originally referred to those living a monastic style - it is relatively recent that 'to be religious' has come to mean 'someone who has a faith'...

Peyote_Princess xXx :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Was I talking? ... Did they hear me?"


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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