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 fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc: 
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 absolute truth 
#2957332 - 08/02/04 05:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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I was arguing with my dad about this, but with him coming from a christian perspective all he would do is try to get me to say what *I* believe, which is not part my argument at all. Do you believe absolute truth exists? If you say it doesn't, is that an absolute statement? If absolute truth exists, then who is to say who's beliefs are the true ones? Christians have their belief systems and claim that the bible and god declare what is true. Muslims have the quran and believe that their god's will is the truth. What I am saying is that both groups absolutely believe that they have a truth system, yet they do not match. Sure some parts may overlap but who is to decide what is ultimately good? Do we go with majority public opinion? I think that to claim that one's belief is the one true way is arrogant and ignorant...
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Anonymous
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#2957392 - 08/02/04 05:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Truth is unique to each moment in space-time. All possibilities exist, so all possibilities are truth. However, within each moment there is an absolute truth.
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 Twirling
Barred Spiral
Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#2957601 - 08/02/04 06:29 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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The way our minds work, I think we are meant to experince things subjectivly. It allows us to form our own experinces and way of apperiating life. We like to have very solid beliefs because they give us a sense of control over life and what happens to us.
Think about it this way. If both of these sides REALLY truly believed in an absolute sense that their God is the right God, and that they protected them, than why would they have to so passionatly attack each other, try to defend & enforce their beliefs? Doesn't it seem kind of silly that an all-knowing, all-wise omnipitent being would act like a 7 year old by punishing those who don't follow every word he commands?
Doesn't it seem like, if you created all of existance, and people tried their best to understand the "person" who created it all, that any interpertation would be a reflection of the person who created it in the first place?
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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.
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Mad_Buhdda_Abuser
member
Registered: 12/12/03
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Last seen: 20 years, 7 days
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Re: absolute truth [Re: Twirling]
#2957783 - 08/02/04 07:32 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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In the case of Absolute truth, it is like the universe always changing and relative to the exact point in time..
ITS ALLL REALTIVE MAN!!
PEACE
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#2958597 - 08/02/04 11:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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These are all good posts.
It seems to me that those who claim that there is no absolute truth, that "everything is relative", will find themselves in a logical predicament if they analyze this statement critically.
1) If one says that there is no absolute truth, then he must admit that certain knowledge, true knowledge, is impossible.
2) If certain knowledge is not possible, then his statement "There is no absolute truth" cannot be known to be true.
3) His assertion becomes a groundless opinion, because there is no possible way for a person who does not believe in absolute truth to affirm with certainty any proposition whatsoever.
This is the classic argument against scepticism. It is over two thousand years old.
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"The thoughts are broken, perhaps they're better left unsung"
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#2958828 - 08/03/04 01:32 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Absolute truth only exists in the human mind
That statement is not absolute unless you believe it to be
We are just egos after all, I think therefore I am, whether or not we really are doesn't matter to most people because that's all we know. We may be machines, the universe may be contained in a marble and we are atoms experiencing themselves through energy, or we may be a butterfly dreaming we are human, but would it change this moment, regardless?
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Simisu
taken by gravity
Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 5,450
Loc: Israeli in
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#2959940 - 08/03/04 11:07 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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in regard to religion...
i think that every religion comes to explain life and deal with it
somewhere along the way people forgot what it's all about!
and also lots of it became irralevent for our time... like eating cosher food for example (which prevents you from eating things that once contained lots of shit... but today these things are not so!)
the understanding of being human and what's it about hasn't changed for a long time now... that's why most religions are still relevent...
but faith is much better when it comes from the actual beliver rather then imposed as facts (an absolute truth)
i think people should belive in them self (take responsibilety for their own actions... be their own god) that would make a better expiriance out of life insted of blindly beliving in a higher being that is simply not there...
there IS something and it's NOW not when you die
it's all around us and it IS us.... it's everything and that IS the only absolute thing...
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     Shr mery
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tekramrepus
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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Re: absolute truth [Re: Simisu]
#2960057 - 08/03/04 12:09 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Contemplating things like this are usually out of unrest, or ignorance 
I'd know because I have both.
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Mad_Buhdda_Abuser
member
Registered: 12/12/03
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Last seen: 20 years, 7 days
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I know what u mean shroomydan, but what im saying now that everything is relative to that exact point in time, is relative my exact point in time...who knows sometime in the near future someone will come with something that proves me wrong, but with my experience and from what ive learnt so far, i can say that i beleive everything to be relative, even me sayings everything is relative proves that my original argument in itself is relative. So in a sense there is truth in the statement, but at the same time everything changes around us therefore making it unrelative later on in existence.
MUCHO Love
PEACE
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: shroomydan [Re: fearfect]
#2960485 - 08/03/04 02:16 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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I agree with Max Headroom, but I also want to say that "absolute truth" is a human invented term, so what I believe is most probable, from a human point of view, is what MH said.
It("absolute truth") could also be like the equation y = x^2 for example, the infinite, or let me say this like this...Choose two points A and B and try to get them closer each time...closer and closer...there is an infinite number of movements that one can make...the essence of infinity is what our mind can't grasp, our mind has a lot of limitations, maybe with some brain alterations we could be able to answer your question.Hmm I have an idea. Lets try some shroooomzzzzzzzzz!!!!
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#2960911 - 08/03/04 03:50 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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> Do you believe absolute truth exists?
Please define absolute truth.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc:
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Re: absolute truth [Re: Seuss]
#2961045 - 08/03/04 04:32 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is truth absolute, relative, or both?
"Absolute truth" is defined as inflexible reality: fixed, invariable, unalterable facts. For example, it is a fixed, invariable, unalterable fact that there are absolutely no square circles and there are absolutely no round squares.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#2962529 - 08/03/04 11:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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I agree with fearfects definition. There are no square circles now, ever have been, or ever will be. This proposition is not relative to any point in space and time, but is rather is true for all places and times.
The absolute truth which is the foundation of logic is the principle of non-contradiction. It is impossible for two statements which contradict one another to both be true. For instance, we can not say Elvis is alive in 2004, and also affirm that Elvis is dead in 2004; these two propositions contradict each other, so both cannot be true. This fact that both cannot be true is however itself absolutely true.
There cannot be a square circle, because "square circle" violates the principle of non contradiction.
In one of my philosophy classes someone once asked if God could make a square circle. Well he could make a square and call it a circle, but so could you or I.
I believe that this explanation shows that absolute truth exists in the principle of non-contradiction, and I challenge anyone to try to prove otherwise. This will be impossible because any rational auguement uses the science of logic. Proof requires rationality, and logic is based on the principle of non-contradiction.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#2963650 - 08/04/04 09:52 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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> For example, it is a fixed, invariable, unalterable fact that there are absolutely no square circles and there are absolutely no round squares.
Assuming you are working in flat space. If you draw a square in curved space, it can look rather circular.
I would think the name of God,which cannot be spoken, is the only absolute truth (as defined by you above).
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Just another spore in the wind.
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CJay
Dark Stranger
Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
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Confining absolute truth within logic seems futile - feelings are illogical and they truly exist. The existence of consciousness is illogical - yet it is here.
siting absolute truth within logic seems like a relative concept to me.
If absolute truth exists I would think it exists beyond the realms of conceptualisation altogether.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: absolute truth [Re: CJay]
#2965613 - 08/04/04 07:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Of course absolute truth exists beyond the realm of conception. Some things in the realm of logic are true in an absolute sense without containing within themselves the entirety of the truth. The same is true for mathematics; the theorem a=a,1=1 is absolutely true, yet further truth exists outside it, for instance 1 1 =2.
As for the example of the square in curved space, the proposition "there are no square circles" can be rendered absolutely true by adding the qualifier "in two dimensional space", which I might add is inherent to both sqares and circles; both are two dimensional figures. "There are no square circles in two dimensional space" is absolutely true.
Seuss, I agree about God being the only absolute truth, in the sense of encompassing the entirety of truth. However, other truths like A=A, and the principle of non-contradiction can be absolutely true, only in less profound ways.
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justAkid
Member of myCulture
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Who says humans have the right to define truth? What is true is true, and the truth exists outside of us, and the human perspective of truth will not change truth.
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Trust thyself.
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Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand
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Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#4924446 - 11/11/05 11:04 PM (19 years, 28 days ago) |
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If there were no absolute truth there would be no purpose of philosophy. We would all just be masturbating ourselves to no end. If philosophy were to abandon absolute truth / objective reality then we would all stop arguing.
If an infinite number of things were possible, than that would be the absolute truth.
If someone admitted that "we are all right!" they would probably see themselves straight out of P+S.
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once in a lifetime
sun child
Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 1,807
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 Re: absolute truth [Re: fearfect]
#24594064 - 08/31/17 06:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool thread.
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Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog
large . . music  garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main
Time Traveler's Guide
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum
Registered: 10/08/12
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I've found that the best approach is not to try to find ultimate truth, but to whittle down falsehood.
Falsehood can be identified instinctively by a true heart.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 41,059
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why even use the word true as in true heart, it is an atavistic metaphorical misdirection?
just learn how to detect when you tell yourself lies, and resist the impulse to keep editing your story. When that happens everything is true, it's not as lofty and magic sounding, but it is the essence of the work.
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once in a lifetime
sun child
Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 1,807
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'The work'?
And when 'the work' is completed, then one is free to belittle others with impunity?
Just wondering red green.
I've seen a lot of posts about 'dumb, broken,' etc - this and that,
So I guess I would ask you -- what in your view is someone like after 'the work' had been completed.
As - from your statements and general presentation, it would seem, as mentioned, to include those mentioned above --
Which, needless to say, do not include what I would call a person who has completed 'the work'
-- Although I would not use such a phrase outside of quotes.
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Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog
large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main
Time Traveler's Guide
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Philosite
Stranger
Registered: 09/01/17
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Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
why even use the word true as in true heart, it is an atavistic metaphorical misdirection?
just learn how to detect when you tell yourself lies, and resist the impulse to keep editing your story. When that happens everything is true, it's not as lofty and magic sounding, but it is the essence of the work.
I think this is your best answer OP.
Another example of the answer being simple, unintuitive, and nonmagical.
Just try your best to detect when you tell yourself lies while on your journey of learning / exploring. Thats all you can really do.
Absolute truths though? I think therefore i am. A triangle has 3 sides. The circumference of a circle is its diameter times Pi. That kinda nonsense.
Just take what redgreenvines said. Its the better answer... and youre better off with it.
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