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OfflineKremlin
life in E minor
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Eastern Religions VII: Warring State thinkers: Confucius
    #2075064 - 11/05/03 11:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Links again:


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Confucius
(good idea to look at the Shang/Chou dynasty info before, many terms and concepts are used from there)

Confucius (Kongzi) ~551-480
Given a latin name by europeans after hearing his and Mengzi's teachings (Mencius)

Texts: Analects (lunyu) "classified Sayings"
-collection of texts and saying of Confucius
-writted after his death most likely

Main Ideas
-Thinks T'ien(heaven) has given him a mission to save China
-He wants to return to the harmony of the Chou dynasty
-His mission is to find a king (not himself, mind you) to unite china
-he was very unsuccessful in his own lifetime
-he was a low-level beurocrat himself

Concepts:

1)Chun-tzu/Junzi "Gentleman" idea changed
-aristrocrat by earlier definition
-Confucius shifts meaning to moral, someone who acts well
-any level of society can be a jinzu

2)ren "Goodness, Humanity, Benevolence"
-Book of odes defined as: Quality of a gentlemen
-Confucius defined as: Virtue of being a goood human being

3)Te/De "Virtue"
-Chou: only aristocrats can have
-Confucius: anyone can achieve de
-he feels that if the king he wants to find can achieve de, all of china will bend beneath him like wind over the grass

The culture of the Chou must be adapted to his world, in his mind

1)Ritual, "the rites"
-passed down by text and word of mouth
-rites work by changing the way you are in the world
-if you can master ritual, you have ren
-he called it "the way", (Tao/dao)
-if people learn it, then we will be like the Chou

Ritual teaches
-Restrain natural tendencies
-a "language of action"

Believes that it was revealed to the Chou by T'ien

Confucius believes that Being human is being properly socialized, which the rituals teach.

2)Learning/study (xue(hsueh)/si)
-immerse yourself in the classics (Book of odes/Book of history)
-reflect upon them
-study, study, study, and your thoughts will be shaped (Externalist)

Filial piety (xiao)
-you cannot be a good junzi unless you start at being a good son
-social roles are important, who you are is constituted by your social roles

the confucian gentleman must achieve a balance between:
-zhong "loyalty, dutifulness"
-shu "sympathetic understanding"

-zhong often involves going against ruler if he is doing something bad
-shu is putting yourself in others place, it tells you when to be flexible about zhong
-book 10 of the analects is all about shu

Wu-wei
-Confucian wu-wei is a melding of 2 chou ideas
1) physically doing morals correctly
2) Also being unselfconsciously moral
-it is your second nature to spontaneously embody the way perfectly and unselfconsciously if you have wu-wei

This is the soteriological goal (besides uniting china under a ruler with de and wu-wei)

Confucius is very opposed to punishment, he believes that a true ruler doesnt need it, or military...all he needs is virtue

Paradox
-How do you try not to try?
for this model to work, you must love the way, if you want it for any other reason, you wont get it.
-how do you teach someone to love something they dont already love?
if you fail, you breed hypocrites (laozi attacks him here)
-he is very concerned with "glib people", people who know it but dont feel it (ritual)
and finally
if he had wu-wei, why did no one listen to him?

So to sum it up:
-Confucius was an externalist, but internalist at time
-goal was to study the rituals enough so that you gain autonomy and wu-wei over them
-with virtue, china will bend like grass under the wind, and it will be united.

Mozi coming soon...
--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Eastern Religions VII: Warring State thinkers: Confucius [Re: Kremlin]
    #2075502 - 11/06/03 01:17 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm really enjoying these threads. Can't wait 'til you get to Taoism.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Eastern Religions VII: Warring State thinkers: Confucius [Re: silversoul7]
    #2075520 - 11/06/03 01:21 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

they should be made a sticky


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OfflineKremlin
life in E minor
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Re: Eastern Religions VII: Warring State thinkers: Confucius [Re: Zahid]
    #2075754 - 11/06/03 02:24 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

im gonna ask for it to be sticky.

and Taoism/Daoism is very close, Laozi is soon.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Eastern Religions VII: Warring State thinkers: Confucius [Re: Kremlin]
    #2076176 - 11/06/03 07:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Sticky, or perhaps the start of an S&P faq?  :smile:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
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Re: Eastern Religions VII: Warring State thinkers: Confucius [Re: Seuss]
    #2076180 - 11/06/03 07:09 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well, maybe a thread containing a link to all the other posts could be stickied, because I can't imagine page one being all stickies. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineKremlin
life in E minor
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Re: Eastern Religions VII: Warring State thinkers: Confucius [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2076959 - 11/06/03 02:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

yah that was i meant, i msgd Shroomism asking if i could make a post of all the links when im done and if he could make that one post sticky.

We'll see

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Eastern Religions VII: Warring State thinkers: Confucius [Re: Kremlin]
    #2078100 - 11/06/03 08:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Go for it man


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