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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: Tri] * 2
    #29705387 -

This is the big brain experiment type stuff you just don't see on other sites and one of the reasons why I love this community and website.
:leocheers:

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #29707146 -

When drying at room temperature it would be beneficial to monitor/report your relative humidity levels as that will greatly affect how dry the mushrooms can get without artificially raising the temp. You can usually find thermometers with relative humidity readouts that are inexpensive.

The whole purpose of raising temperature when drying is to lower relative humidity which allows more moisture to evaporate. Ergo, those in humid climates, like Pacific Northwest, etc., will have different results air drying than those in more arid climates or even those drying at a different times of the year.


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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: Icyurmt] * 1
    #29708691 -

Good point. I think that I mentioned in the first update on the OP that my rh is low here which is likely to have an impact on results.

Quote:
So I stick to my recommendation to always heat dry for best potency preservation in storage. If you plan to use them right away forced ambient air may improve the final potency by as much as 10%. Keep in mind that my ambient test was with a relative humidity below 20% so your mileage may vary in a more humid environment. Insufficiently dry mushrooms can lose far more than 10% potency in a few days, weeks or months. Fully dried mushrooms easily hold their potency for years.


I worried that comparing the unheated and heated drying would not show much in the way of difference due to the very low humidity here. However, even with rh below 20% there was still a significant difference in weight from water. I can only assume that the difference would be even greater in a more humid or very humid locations without the addition of heat in the drying process.

I have a couple of fat GTs about fully mature. I plan to try to squeeze in the heated vs unheated drying potency after storage test with them. If not this time, I will have to start another run of GTs as these shoeboxes are about tapped out.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29708730 -

I was thinking about this post in the context of mushroom size, while drying quite small shrooms from a cake. It doesn’t seem immediately clear to me that the 24h time would apply always, irregardless of the size and thickness of mushrooms.

Quote:
Keep in mind that each sample was very small and each piece was sliced into vertical quarters. I believe that contributed to the short times required to reach stable weights. For larger batches with unsliced mushrooms the drying time would likely be much greater.


You do sort of address it here, but maybe it’s something to explore further. Either as a function of thickness vs time or to find out what would be the optimal size to cut the material that’s being dried.

Not that it actually matters that much to me, but sounded interesting in my head.

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: eilauver] * 3
    #29708804 -

For sure. My pans are definitely dry long before the 24 hour mark, but as the latest results show, there is no harm in letting them run longer at full heat no matter the size. Once all of the water is gone potency loss is not a continuing danger.

The ambient drying weight had stabilized in my 20% rh test but lost an additional 7% of water weight when that sample was subjected to heated dehydration.

So my conclusion is that unheated drying does not remove all water. And that over drying does not cause additional potency loss. Therefore, heated drying for a longer time is the safest way to ensure that potency is protected. You may be able to get them fully dry in less time, but there is no harm in drying for longer to be absolutely sure that they are dry. And, stable weight is not bullet proof evidence that all water has been removed.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29708982 -

Ahaa, right you are! I now noticed that update where you tested that. Must have been my compromised reading comprehension after few glasses of wine too many. :laugh:

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: eilauver] * 1
    #29709034 -

Excellent test as usual rev.  Exactly what ive always suspected and what all the old heads--namely pasty--have always said. 

Negligible. Less than 3%


I probably dump more than 5% of any given tub just for being ugly. 

I especially liked the part when Dave Bennet came to poke holes in the data and ate crow instead.  bout time.  15%... pshhhh. Totally just shooting from the hip, as usual.


good stuff. Great job all round rev, as usual. an asset to the community.  Thanks for everything.


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Edited by BeefExtreme (10/26/26 09:12 PM)

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: BeefExtreme] * 1
    #29712959 -

The actual difference is not only 3%.

The OP had made an update where he says that the low temperature ones have 7% more water than the heated dried ones.

What this means is that the low temperature dried ones have the potency diluted by the gram.

So what we need is to do the math to actually find the difference, and equalize it.

The 25C sample had at first 11.06g. After further heated dehydration, it had decreased to 10.34.

So you need to do 11.06/10.34. What results in 1.06963 difference.

Now we need to use this number to find the difference in both.

The room temperature sample had 16.21 mg/g.

The 35C sample had 16.28 mg/g.

After multiplying both by the number 1.06963, we find these results:

The room temperature sample now have 17.34 mg/g.

The 35C sample now have 17.41 mg/g.

Now, when we compare it by percentage we find a 10.1% difference in the 35C sample and 9.7% of difference in the room temperature sample, compared to the 71C sample.

The OP said he was willing to defend a 10% difference from any side. There is a 10% difference or very close to that in both low temperature samples.

Now what actually matters is a long term stability test, that the OP already had proposed to do, and I'm very excited in seeing the results.

In my opinion, we should also not extrapolate or make solid conclusions before testing more variables.

It is very obvious that there are some flaws in the methodology. For example, why the air fryer 85C sample had so much more loss than the 71C one? This is an unanswered question until now.

The OP should be measuring the temperature the actual mushroom is reaching, instead of just the nominal temperature of the dehydrator/air fryer he is using, for control purposes. This could be what is making the difference between the air fryer one and the dehydrator one, maybe the nominal temperature is different to the actual heat reaching the mushroom.

The other obvious flaw I've seen is that when using a drying chamber, it is better to use a glass, airtight container. He is using a plastic, not airtight one, which could reduce the potential of the desiccant. The normal desiccant used is also silica instead of DampRid, which could affect results.

The result he got after putting the mushroom in the dehydrator for 72 hours goes directly against the results all of the scientific papers we have until now, and he says that in other updates. And these scientific papers generally follows a better methodology and have better equipment.

But don't be hasty, I'm not saying the test the OP made is useless or wrong, just reinforcing that we maybe need more data before making hard statements.

Either way, I think waiting is the best for now. The stability test should answer some of these questions, and then he could be planning testing other possibilities after that if he wants.

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: kayden6969]
    #29713011 -

@Rev: Can I make a suggestion for a future experiment?

I'm curious how much magic is lost by leaving wet fruits out for a period of time without dehydrating them.

I have a small dehydrator so sometimes my fruits will sit wet in an open tub at room temperature for a day or two.

I also got lazy once and forgot some dehydrated fruit in a bowl for over a month. When I ate them they still had plenty of magic left.

Both tests could easily be done with your current testing methodology.


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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: PuffM4gicDr4gon] * 1
    #29713587 -

@puff
That is a good one as well. The only issue that I see is that the tests require a dried sample so at some point they would need to be dehydrated to get an accurate result. Any water that remains in the sample throws off the results as mentioned in the post above yours.

@kayden
I agree with a lot of your points and have a question or comment about some.
  • I stated in a previous post that due to the retained moisture in the ambient dried sample that the actual difference can be calculated to approximately 10% rather than 3% indicated in the original test due to the weight of water in the sample making the results unreliable. In fact, I updated the OP to say so as well. Unfortunately that is a calculated variance versus a measured one so it still is based on some assumptions and therefore not 100% reliable.

  • I answered one of my questions while rereading you post to respond, so scratch one.

  • So with the 10% measured difference and a 5% accuracy of the tests, I am defending the idea that lower temps do lead to more retained potency in the short term. Given the accuracy, I got 5% to 15% more based on the calculated extrapolation. Which leads to the next test that will compare ambient dried mushrooms to 71c dried mushrooms after one day, 1 month, three months, with one spare sample to pick another time. That test is under way. I have dried 8 samples made by dissecting several Golden Teacher stipes into equal sections. The first pair of heated vs unheated will be tested later today if possible, the rest as the times come up. So results on this test will not be available for a little while.

  • I suspect that the air fryer produced significantly lower results because air fryers do not move nearly as much air as purpose built dehydrators do. Or at least that is the case for my air fryer and dehydrators. As such, the factors are not quite equal. I stated this in the original post, so I am not sure about calling it an unanswered question. I addressed it and shared what may have been a factor but cannot do more than speculate with the materials available. A better test would be to uses a modified dehydrator that is capable of higher temperatures. But that is not something that I am able to produce. Keep in mind that all of these tests are aimed at home hobbyists. So any tests that require specialized lab equipment are not in the scope of my tests.

  • As to measuring the actual temperature of the mushrooms, do you have a suggestion of how to accomplish that? Any measuring device that I can think of laying next to a sample would give a different result than the evaporating temperature of the mushroom bodies due to the different physical properties. I know of no device small enough to insert into the body of 1/4 or 1/8 of a mushroom. What method do you propose? Again, keep in mind that resources are limited and results should be reproducible by hobbyists.

  • The next point about desiccant drying methods is valid for lab dried mushrooms. I was trying to follow a method that was commonly recommended as a drying method that does not use heat. There may be many other recommendation on methods, but I do not have infinite resources to try every possible method and chose one that seemed typical.

  • I would love to see a single scientific paper that compares dehydrator dried mushroom potency results at different intervals. I have not seen a single one that meets the same criteria. I have seen many results that could be used to extrapolate that there is a difference. None compare fully heat dried mushrooms over time. My test specifically tests to see if leaving mushrooms to dry in a dehydrator continues to reduce potency after being fully dried. My results show that they do not. This is only one test and needs to be reproduced by others. It does match my experience with drying mushrooms and extracts. I stand by the statement that once the mushrooms or extracts are fully dry the potency will not drop significantly in the absence of water. Since I had not seen a study that confirmed or denied this directly, I expended the effort, expense and resources to verify this for myself. If you dispute my claim please show your work.

  • More data is always better. I have shared actual data in the hopes that others will continue to do the same. I do not have an HPLC or fully equipped laboratory. I wish that I did. But if I did, the results might not be as useful to the home cultivator since the test conditions would not be the same theirs.

I do hope that my responses clarify some of your points for others and yourself. I am giving the benefit of the doubt that I am not responding to a puppet account. But even if that is the case, the time is well used if it helps others in any way.

Edit: Formatting change for legibility + grammar.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

Edited by ReverendMyc (10/30/26 06:26 PM)

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29713703 -

I remember the air fryer thread fondly and I am glad you went through all this painstaking effort to get answers backed by evidence. You are the man.


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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: Turvenuija]
    #29713708 -

@rev: the way I'd do it is split a sample, dehydrate one immediately, let the other sit out for 1-7 days, then put it through a dehydrator. That way both are completely dry.

I'm guessing that the split mushroom would lose magic faster than a whole fruit because of greater surface area of oxidization, but it would at least point to a direction.

This is just idle curiosity, so if you don't think it's worth the time, it's no big deal.


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I've got skills, they don't know where to use me
I'm like the best dressed guy at the nude beach
Nice to meet you!

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: PuffM4gicDr4gon] * 4
    #29713756 -

@Puff Sounds good. I will see if I can squeeze another few fat gt out of these shoeboxes. They are floating lotus right now.

@Turvenuija
I appreciate the appreciation. I like doing the discovery and it seems wasted if I am the only one who knows what I find out.

@kayden, Dave B and anyone else that finds the direct tone of some of my responses too harsh -
I spend a lot of time overthinking my responses. I work hard to be fair and equitable. Sometimes I feel that it is difficult to be precise while also being gentle and so fail to maintain my dulcet facade. If I call something you say out specifically, it is because others will read these boards when I am not around to add in my 2 bits. So it is intended with no true malice. I don't know you and wish only good things for you.

At the same time, I will not be drawn into long circular arguments. I present evidence and data and have little interest in conjecture. When I present opinions I try to make that very clear. My conclusions are given with how I arrived at them. When I make recommendations I am careful to say this is what I do, believe and recommend, and again try to produce evidence and data. I have little respect for advice derived from extrapolations based on the work of others. If I can't produce evidence that what I recommend works, I do not recommend it. If I cannot definitively prove that one method is objectively better than another I don't claim that it is. I usually skirt around this by saying, 'this is what I do and it works for me".


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 3
    #29713797 -

Hey Rev for what it's worth i like how you're going about this. One of the best threads on the board IMO. Designing controls for things like this and actually keeping them is fucking hard, don't listen too much to folks with little else to contribute. When Dave finally drops his lib tek I'll maybe listen to him. Good science takes observation and repetition. You've demonstrated both here. Thanks for the effort


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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #29713843 -

Yessir, I love it when you keep it direct and tell it like you see it. We appreciate you calling a spade a spade.

I for one have learned a lot from how you operate your experiments and the scientific rigor you put behind it. It inspires me to step my game up to contribute real raw data to the community as opposed to anecdotes

Thank you for everything Rev:cheers:


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"Why try for high fives,
When my pies have nine lives?"
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Edited by langten69 (10/30/26 07:01 PM)

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29714208 -

It's okay, your words weren't harsh to me, and I also don't want to criticize your work or criticize you. I just wanted to share some of my reasoning.

From what I know about science, you only draw firm conclusions after testing more variables and having a strong body of evidence from several "angles", covering all bases.

So what I was doing was making it clear that I had found some limitations in your data, and seeing if we could clarify them somehow to reach a better conclusion.

I congratulate you on your work because you're doing something that no one has ever done, and maybe never will be done in science, because this is more useful for cultivators than for scientists.

Now, answering your questions:

1. I didn't read this post before, where you corrected the actual difference in potency. My bad.

3. That's great. I'm very curious about the stability results, and in my opinion, this cracker dry difference between low and high heat dehydration is the best finding so far.

4 and 5. You have a plausible logic behind that, but it's not proven, so I don't think we should be making firm statements about it.

I also think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. What I'm saying is that we should confirm whether the nominal temperature of the dehydrator is actually reaching even the surface of an object, not its center. That way, we can rule out evaporation from the mushroom bodies.

To put it simply, imagine that the mushroom in the 85°C air fryer is actually receiving 85°C heat on its surface.

Meanwhile, the one in the dehydrator is receiving only 50–60°C on its surface, while the interior is even cooler, as theorized.

Before commenting here, I also did some very brief research and found some papers that make my theory more plausible:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956713521008537

This study set the dehydrator to a nominal temperature of 55°C. The mushrooms inside never got above 46°C. The air temperature was also measured and never got above 46.6°C.



https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2023/9996331

This one set the dehydrator to a nominal temperature of 70°C. None of the trays reached anywhere near that temperature. The upper tray had the lowest temperature, at 44.6°C, while the bottom tray reached 47.6°C. Way below the 70°C setting.

This means that the distance between the trays and the heating element also plays a role, and that the nominal temperature of the dehydrator is sometimes not the actual temperature reaching the object we're trying to dehydrate.



So I think it's a good idea to test this. Your method of putting something in the dehydrator to act as a mushroom is actually a pretty good idea, because we only want to know the temperature reaching the surface of any kind of object inside the dehydrator, and whether it's the same as the nominal temperature setting.

A laser thermometer could also work fine.

For example, you could take an already cracker dry mushroom, put it in the dehydrator for two hours or more to let its temperature rise and stabilize, and then use a laser thermometer to measure its surface temperature. Very simple. You could also measure it on different trays if you want a better set of data. This would also prevent the thermometer from measuring things incorrectly if it's too close to the heating element.

6. You could use a fan + silica chamber. It's also quite easy, and I think it's the most popular method for dehydrating at lower temperatures. The reason I brought up your silica chamber is that silica chambers work by reducing the humidity close to 0%. If it's not an airtight container, the humidity will never reach 0% or close to that. Then it won't pull out that last bit of water. This could be what's causing the 7% difference. I think it's fair to at least give it a test.

7. There isn't one. A direct comparison doesn't exist between mushrooms dehydrated at high and low temperatures, and that's why your test is valuable. There also isn't a direct long term stability comparison between low heat and high heat dried mushrooms.

Still, there are stability tests on dried biomass where 75°C showed lower alkaloid stability than 25°C. So it clashes directly with this data. We also have studies on psilocybin in aqueous media, and they show the same results, where higher temperatures are worse for stability. This leads us to conclude that psilocybin, whether in aqueous media or biomass form, loses stability when exposed to heat. I'll expand on that in my next comment, briefly explaining what I know about the science on this subject. This comment is already very long.

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Re: Tested: Dehydration temperature vs potency [Re: kayden6969]
    #29714220 -

So, I will summarize what I know about dehydration from the scientific papers I've read. I'll try to keep this comment very brief.

I know five studies showing that psilocybin has worse stability when exposed to heat (PMID: 38825326, PMID: 35187358, PMID: 33119971, PMID: 35736081, PMID: 32685866), regardless of whether it's in aqueous or biomass form. What we can conclude after reading all these studies is that psilocybin starts losing stability when exposed to heat for extended periods, whether it's in biomass or aqueous form.

It's chemically and experimentally established that psilocin is less stable than psilocybin. This is already well established (PMID: 38825326).

We know that physically damaging mushrooms causes the blueing reaction and increases free psilocin content in fresh mushrooms (PMID: 31725937, PMID: 33119971).

We also have studies characterizing the PsiK enzyme, the main enzyme responsible for a "repair mechanism" in mushrooms (PMID: 31725937, PMID: 33237633).

This enzyme is responsible for converting psilocin into psilocybin, which means turning a less stable alkaloid into a more stable one. Psilocin and psilocybin share pretty much the same chemical structure, and the phosphate group that PsiK adds acts as a stabilizer.

We have data showing zero loss when dehydrating at room temperature compared to fresh mushrooms, with an increase in more stable alkaloids (e.g., psilocybin) and a decrease in less stable alkaloids (e.g., psilocin) (PMID: 33119971).

What I concluded from all these studies is:

When you harvest a mushroom, you physically damage it, increasing its psilocin content. By dehydrating it at lower temperatures, you allow the mushroom's repair mechanism to keep working, converting psilocin back into psilocybin.

Adding heat can help destroy this free psilocin content and decrease the stability of psilocybin. It can also effectively denature the mushroom's enzymes, disrupting this repair mechanism. That's why adding heat is worse.

This would also mean that mushrooms dried at lower temperatures have better long term stability because they contain more psilocybin, while those dried at higher temperatures could have a higher psilocin content.

This makes your stability test particularly interesting, because the low temperature sample may contain more water, but it could also have a more stable alkaloid profile. Meanwhile, the high temperature sample may contain less water but could have a less stable alkaloid profile (with higher psilocin content).

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