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Bismillah
Scharf im Schlafanzug


Registered: 07/11/22
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Rye problems and European pressure cookers
#28624516 - 01/17/24 12:08 PM (11 days, 44 minutes ago) |
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I've been having some bacterial jars in the past months so I started going over the whole process. The problems came after I switched the brand of rye I use. Actually, the supplier (a mushroom supplier) switched brands. The grain is full of chaff and dirt, and I get a lot of burst and wet grains. This is with 6-7 rinse waters, a 24h soak, rinse, and 10 min boil, same as I've done for about a year.
But even with shitty grain, I figured a 2h PC cycle should do it, right? Nope, still funky jars. So my PC was the next suspect.
I've been reading all these instructions for US cookers, with their wobblers, weights and petcocks. Mine is a WMF Perfect Plus, and it seems like all European cookers have the same features: - Automatic venting (a ball valve shuts when steam reaches a certain velocity) - Spring loaded button that rises with pressure, releases steam if exceeding the maximum pressure. - Lock mechanism that also can be used to relieve pressure, i.e. manual venting is possible. - There's a cutout in the lid where the gasket sits. If the spring loaded release fails, the gasket will blow out and release pressure away from the user. It's therefore not possible to increase pressure by applying weights to the pressure regulator.
The user manual is a bit vague on what this thing can do. The pressure indicator has two rings: First ring is 110C (230F) and 45kPa (6.5psi). Second ring is 119C (246F) and 95kPa (13.8psi). In addition to that, it has a "regulating pressure" of 130kPa (18.9psi). No idea what that means.
To settle this, I hooked up a pt100 probe inside my PC and boiled some water. Calibration with boiling water was 100.0C, spot on.

I closed the vent at 100C, and let the pressure indicator rise until it started hissing. At this point I'll set the induction top to half power, and it will fizzle like this for 1.5h. This is how I do grains. I loose quite a bit of water this way, but at least I get as much pressure as this thing can do. Results show I'm actually getting 121C, so that's a relief. I ran a cycle with grain jars as well, and reached 122-124C.
I've been venting manually lately after these bacterial jars started coming out. I don't think this is necessary though, given how leaky this thing is. When I first started out, I would crank the induction to "boost mode" and get to pressure in around 5 minutes. I don't do this anymore, I set the hob to 60% so the PC reaches pressure in 10-12 minutes, then 50% for the cycle. This way the jars should have the same temperature as the steam when I start the timer.
As for my funky rye, I bought some race horse oats and I've inoculated some jars already. The oats are super clean, no burst or sticky grains. They're also 1/5 the cost of rye, so if this works out I'll be a happy camper.
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Goatrider
Rhythm Guitarist



Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 4,396
Loc: Germany
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28624525 - 01/17/24 12:19 PM (11 days, 33 minutes ago) |
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Maybe read through this thread from Josex.
He was used to have hands on just shitty grains, but therefore developed some master skills 
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Bismillah
Scharf im Schlafanzug


Registered: 07/11/22
Posts: 169
Last seen: 4 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Goatrider]
#28625459 - 01/18/24 01:23 AM (10 days, 11 hours ago) |
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That's interesting, his jars look a lot like mine. After first shake, colonization is often uneven, and sometimes I'll have a region that takes forever to colonize. In a good jar, I get maybe 2-5 grains that are wet-pressed against the glass. I can't go over 15psi though so I can't follow his 28psi prep tek.
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OldManRiver
Fisherman at large


Registered: 11/12/17
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Loc: Pacific NW USA
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28625469 - 01/18/24 02:08 AM (10 days, 10 hours ago) |
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I think the venting at the end isn't helping you. I don't do so, and my thinking is that first, a slow decline in pressure extends the cook time, which can't hurt, and second, a rapid pressure change might risk introducing more outside air into the PC.
I don't think you'll regret using oats. I've had great luck with them. I doubt they are the root of your problem, but they won't hurt at all, and they are way cheaper for me to get than rye. I've been using oats for sometime.
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MrJong
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: OldManRiver]
#28625471 - 01/18/24 02:22 AM (10 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Yeah you have to let it depressurize and cool down on its own, only vent at the beginning to make sure your PC is filled with steam. Check your PC's manual if you still have it, if you want to be sure how your particular model works.
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Tiamo
Trust in LITFA




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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: MrJong]
#28625479 - 01/18/24 02:51 AM (10 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Rapid depressurisation of the PC will force outside air through the filters of your jars which might jntroduce contamination
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wtfcrazymofo
foil hater



Registered: 07/26/15
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28625491 - 01/18/24 03:27 AM (10 days, 9 hours ago) |
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oats may look clean and cheap, but.... I found with the producers pride whole oat brand at least 2 hours at 15psi is needed for quart jars not to go bacterial within 2-3 weeks at 1000 feet above the ocean.
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541 Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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Mwj12977
OLD DAD


Registered: 12/12/23
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
#28625701 - 01/18/24 09:15 AM (10 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Are you using gypsum during the soak and boil? I’ve missed this step before and had bacterial issues. Mainly because of clumping causing uneven drying and wet spots.
Are you watching the grains during the boil to make sure they are not bursting? As soon as I see one burst grain I stop the cook. Even if it’s 5 minuets in. (Low water levels cook the grains differently. I have had issues with bursting when I’ve got too much grain in the pot) The grains swell during the soak and tend to take up more space than they did 24hrs prior.
Are you immediately removing the grains from the boil? If not that could be the source of your popped grain.
Drying the grain- I use a few giant aluminum Turkey pans for this step (the flimsy throw away kind from the grocery store). As soon as I drain the water I dump the rye in my pan and let it dry. Keep shaking the pan and moving the grains so they dry evenly.
Bag em or jar em and then PC. (Cover your micro pore or it gets too wet) Let the pc cool enough that it unlocks on its own. Shake the jars when you remove them. Shake em again after a bit. Then a bit later shake em again. As they cool you’re shaking to distribute the moisture inside evenly. Once the jars/bags are cool and the grain is loose they are ready to make spawn.
I know this information is readily available and I’m sure you’ve read it all. I went through the steps purposely to make you think about wether or not your inadvertently missing something that you did in the past.
Edited by Mwj12977 (01/18/24 09:25 AM)
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Bismillah
Scharf im Schlafanzug


Registered: 07/11/22
Posts: 169
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Mwj12977]
#28626727 - 01/19/24 04:27 AM (9 days, 8 hours ago) |
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I let the PC depressurize by cooling. The (unnecessary) venting I was referring to was in the beginning of the cycle. I use thick felt filters and cover jars with foil. I keep the foil on until I'm done in the SAB. I used to do cheap sticker-filters and even unmodified lids, and would then keep the foil on during colonization. Two green jars after a year of growing made me upgrade the lids.
I use gypsum during the 24h soak, then rinse and boil without gypsum.
I test grains by eating and/or dissecting some during the boil, and figured they need the 10 minutes. Once boiled, I strain right away and toss in colander to get some steam out. I let it sit for 10 minutes, toss some more, wait some, toss some more. This works well with small batches. For larger batches I've spread them on trays in addition to the 2-3 quarts sitting in the colander. I load in jars and PC after 2-10 hours of drying. I've done it the same way since I started growing, following RR's grain prep video.
What I've noticed with this new batch of rye is that they're still a bit gooey, even when dry. I think that's due to burst grains getting smeared all over.
So far with oats, it seems that colonization is a bit slower. Time will tell.
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Bismillah
Scharf im Schlafanzug


Registered: 07/11/22
Posts: 169
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28627026 - 01/19/24 10:44 AM (9 days, 2 hours ago) |
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I rinsed a new batch of rye and took some photos. What I see is mangled, green and oddly shaped grains. No wonder I have burst grains. Also seen are some weird black and green round blobs.

This is from the previous batch, soaked, boiled and dried:

And a grain jar with issues.. This one's staring back at me
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wtfcrazymofo
foil hater



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Loc: Colonial alley
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Mwj12977]
#28628094 - 01/20/24 04:46 AM (8 days, 8 hours ago) |
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I don't gyp my oats... I just get a full boil on a pot of water, turn the stove off, add oats and replace lid, wait 30 minutes if I'm knocking with LI, or no longer than 1 hour If I'm using agar wedges, strain, load wet but not dripping, PC @ 15 for 2 hours and some change... after cooled I Knock up and shake well 1 good time. If you shake right the first time you don't have to shake at 20-30% colonized because it's got colonies spread all over throughout the vessel
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541 Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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OldManRiver
Fisherman at large


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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: Bismillah]
#28628861 - 01/20/24 04:56 PM (7 days, 19 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Bismillah said: I rinsed a new batch of rye and took some photos. What I see is mangled, green and oddly shaped grains. No wonder I have burst grains. Also seen are some weird black and green round blobs.

Those don't look fully hydrated to me. I don't see any of what I would call burst grains, either. I would either soak or simmer them longer. I prefer to simmer or hot soak, rather than a cold soak, but lots of ways to get it done. My burst grains look similar to cooked brown rice, and the remaining grains look plump, can be cut with my thumbnail, and are translucent all the way through.
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Bismillah
Scharf im Schlafanzug


Registered: 07/11/22
Posts: 169
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Re: Rye problems and European pressure cookers [Re: OldManRiver]
#28629673 - 01/21/24 10:04 AM (7 days, 2 hours ago) |
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Yeah, if you read the description you'll see they're only rinsed. The pic below in my previous post is after boiling.
I'm sure these fragments turn to mush when I boil. Cracked and half eaten grains will sell up, looking like burst grains.
Some grains are scorched looking, others are green or pink. Also found ergot on them. I doubt these would pass as animal feed, let alone for human consumption. PCing may not kill all bacteria, and from what I've gathered they can mess up a jar if conditions are right. Such as nutritious goop or liquid on the grains.
The company that sold these delayed about two weeks before they shipped. I orderered 10kg, and received an opened 25kg bag with 10 kg in it. I suspect they just wanted to get rid of this crap. This company produces spawn and mushroom as well, so they know what they're doing.
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