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Offlinewanderer5
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Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow?
    #28278921 - 04/15/23 12:28 PM (9 months, 8 days ago)

I'm sure this question has been asked elsewhere but I swear I made a more than reasonable attempt to find the answer by searching the forums first. I can't spend hours trying to find it.

I don't have exhaustive details and pictures about everything I did, so I'm not asking for a diagnosis of what if anything has gone wrong. My general question is "After what period of time of waiting for PF Tek cakes to fruit can you be assured that nothing is ever going to happen and it's time to give up and throw them out?"

It has only been a week, but I was surprised because my book said it would only take a couple of days for cakes to fruit. I've seen on the forums that it sometimes takes much longer so that has given me heart to increase my patience.

However, I'm concerned because this is my first grow AND I left the jars for such a long time that one day suddenly mushrooms had already appeared (ten grams fresh worth), even though they were still in the dark, covered by my raincoat, in jars. Not knowing exactly what to do, I immediately birthed the cakes, picked off all the mushrooms, and then did the 24 hour dunk and roll and transferred the cakes (6 of them) to the terrarium.

So because the cakes had already started fruiting (in the dark!), I thought that the growth would take off like a shot once they were soaked and exposed to light and humidity. It almost seems like they'd prefer the dark to the light, even though light is supposed to be the pinning trigger. But I'm totally inexperienced.

I'll keep waiting patiently...but wondering if anyone knows if I somehow shocked or traumatized it by picking the first shrooms off and doing the dunk and roll too late?  And I bring it back to the first question: After what period of time can you really just give up and throw them away because nothing's going to happen?

Thanks.


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Offlinejohnukguy
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5]
    #28279225 - 04/15/23 04:24 PM (9 months, 8 days ago)

Light isn't a major pinning trigger but is beneficial at all stages. There is no benefit to keeping anything in the dark. Since you've dunked these, they do take a while to recover and I'd suggest giving it another week or so. Also, pics would really help people give you more detailed advice, if necessary.


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Offlinewanderer5
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: johnukguy]
    #28280340 - 04/16/23 10:17 AM (9 months, 8 days ago)

Light's not a major pinning trigger, and you never have to keep the jars in the dark?  I keep being surprised to see people in the forum contradicting the book I have (The Psilocybin Mushroom Bible by Virginia Haze and Dr. K. Mandrake, PhD). 

Sounds like everyone does it a bit differently and it usually turns out fine anyway. 

I believe I have one shroom popping out as of today! 

Here is my fruiting chamber:

Some people might think there's too much light, but I think it's okay. The window shade being part way down keeps the sun from hitting it directly.

Here are my cakes:

The vermiculite is too chunky and would not really stick to them.

Here is the lovely little guy I discovered this morning! He is all alone so far, underneath the back right cake (nearest the window):

I'm assuming everything is going okay, but if anyone sees anything that doesn't look right by all means let me know.


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InvisibleWay
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5] * 1
    #28280362 - 04/16/23 10:40 AM (9 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

wanderer5 said:
Light's not a major pinning trigger, and you never have to keep the jars in the dark?  I keep being surprised to see people in the forum contradicting the book I have (The Psilocybin Mushroom Bible by Virginia Haze and Dr. K. Mandrake, PhD). 

Sounds like everyone does it a bit differently and it usually turns out fine anyway. 

I believe I have one shroom popping out as of today! 

Here is my fruiting chamber:

Some people might think there's too much light, but I think it's okay. The window shade being part way down keeps the sun from hitting it directly.

Here are my cakes:

The vermiculite is too chunky and would not really stick to them.

Here is the lovely little guy I discovered this morning! He is all alone so far, underneath the back right cake (nearest the window):

I'm assuming everything is going okay, but if anyone sees anything that doesn't look right by all means let me know.




Looks like a book that was written by people who were using outdated growing methods :shrug:

The verm isn't hanging onto the cake because it needs to be pressed on with a bit of force, and fine verm holds to the cake better.

Congrats on the pin! It's on the bottom of the cake because that is where the best surface conditions are. More than likely. That is the most moist part of the cake as all of the cakes look pretty dry to me.

Welcome to the shroomery by the way!


--------------------

That's the way she goes, boys. Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn't, cause that's the fuckin way she goes.


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Offlinewanderer5
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: Way]
    #28280411 - 04/16/23 11:25 AM (9 months, 8 days ago)

Thank you much!

What could I do to help the cakes if they're too dry?

I didn't mean to buy such coarse vermiculite, darn it. I thought forcing it to stick on there would hurt the mycelium. Should I stick some on now? Spray/mist the cakes directly rather than just the sides of the tub? Or even do another dunk? (They were already soaked for 24 hours a week ago, and the perlite was rinsed).  I have a cheap hygrometer that says it's 93% humidity and 72.6 degrees F in there, for whatever that's worth.


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InvisibleWay
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5] * 1
    #28280474 - 04/16/23 12:12 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

I'm confused, I re read your post and it appears you birthed them before they were fully colonized because they were pinning as well?

The timeline for a healthy cake is full colonization > a few days to a week for consolidation (making sure the inside is fully colonized as well) > birthing > pins in a week or two.

If you  pulled these out before they were fully colonized, I'd just give up on them now personally. Once you expose an uncolonized spawning medium to open air, you introduce a ton of bacteria and mold spores into a nutritious sterile base and it's just going to either not produce much at all or it's going to contam out.

These cakes do not look healthy at all and I'd just recommend starting over if that is the case.

If you wanted to keep a cake from drying out, you give it a good fruiting chamber first. It looks like you did a SGFC, which is how we used to do pf tek but it tended to dry cakes out due to the amount of fresh air exchange and require a lot of misting. Most people just use a Water tub for better results now a days.

After that, you try to keep surface conditions by misting the cake until it is slightly glistening. You want it moist and glistening at all times. Misting not on a schedule, but when the cake needs it by not having any beads or a glistening appearance.

But again, these cakes don't look great. Since you have one that is at least pinning, all you can do really is mist as needed and keep an eye out for contam if you wanted to keep them.

Also, don't mist the sides of the tub. Nothing grows there. Mist from above the cake gently. You won't hurt them.


--------------------

That's the way she goes, boys. Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn't, cause that's the fuckin way she goes.


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Offlinewanderer5
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: Way]
    #28280551 - 04/16/23 01:10 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Hi Way,

My post didn't say anything about whether the cakes were fully colonized or not when I birthed them. Basically, I left them an extra long time, probably about two months after inoculation. I left them too long mostly because I had been too busy to make the SGFC, but also because they never did look as fully bright white as many of the pictures I have seen. So I don't exactly know if that means they were not fully colonized, but when I realized there was pinning (and more than that - one of them even had a big mushroom cap under the lid that had apparently already dropped spores), I felt I really needed to get them out of the jars ASAP. I assumed they must be fully colonized or they would not be growing mushrooms - there was/is certainly mycelium visible covering most of the cakes.

One jar was obviously contaminated and was discarded.  The rest seemed OK as far as I knew.

I have no idea what you mean when you say the cakes don't look "healthy" or "great." In what way do they not look healthy and great? In your other post you said that most of them just looked a little dry.

I'll follow your suggestion about the misting and keep a sharp eye out for contamination.

I can't help but notice, though, how much different people contradict each other on how to do this and what the best and most up-to-date methods are.

I actually had the jars in a water tub (if by that you mean a tub floating in another tub of water that as an aquarium heater in it) during the mycelium-growth phase, but according to my super cheap hygrometer anyway, I have much higher humidity in my shotgun terrarium than I had in that water tub. I made the SGFC rather than keep it in the water tub after birthing due to advice from other people saying that the water tub (and indeed the company I bought it from) totally suck.

So if pinning before full colonization is what happened, and if that indicates a problem like contamination, I could at least say that I did consume those first shrooms and I did not die or experience any sickness. Thoughts?


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OnlineYahra
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5] * 2
    #28280561 - 04/16/23 01:17 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

You are confusing an incubator with a water tub.

Using incubators with heaters is outdated tek.


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InvisibleWay
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5] * 1
    #28280593 - 04/16/23 01:37 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

wanderer5 said:
Hi Way,

My post didn't say anything about whether the cakes were fully colonized or not when I birthed them. Basically, I left them an extra long time, probably about two months after inoculation. I left them too long mostly because I had been too busy to make the SGFC, but also because they never did look as fully bright white as many of the pictures I have seen. So I don't exactly know if that means they were not fully colonized, but when I realized there was pinning (and more than that - one of them even had a big mushroom cap under the lid that had apparently already dropped spores), I felt I really needed to get them out of the jars ASAP. I assumed they must be fully colonized or they would not be growing mushrooms - there was/is certainly mycelium visible covering most of the cakes.

One jar was obviously contaminated and was discarded.  The rest seemed OK as far as I knew.

I have no idea what you mean when you say the cakes don't look "healthy" or "great." In what way do they not look healthy and great? In your other post you said that most of them just looked a little dry.

I'll follow your suggestion about the misting and keep a sharp eye out for contamination.

I can't help but notice, though, how much different people contradict each other on how to do this and what the best and most up-to-date methods are.

I actually had the jars in a water tub (if by that you mean a tub floating in another tub of water that as an aquarium heater in it) during the mycelium-growth phase, but according to my super cheap hygrometer anyway, I have much higher humidity in my shotgun terrarium than I had in that water tub. I made the SGFC rather than keep it in the water tub after birthing due to advice from other people saying that the water tub (and indeed the company I bought it from) totally suck.

So if pinning before full colonization is what happened, and if that indicates a problem like contamination, I could at least say that I did consume those first shrooms and I did not die or experience any sickness. Thoughts?




My mistake then. I must have misread. Regardless, all cakes should be fully covered in mycelium before being birthed. If they never fully colonized and pinned anyway, that indicates some issue. Be it contamination, the wrong size jar used (can't really tell if these are wide mouth half pints or regular mouth), or something else. If you say they were fully colonized, I'll take you at their word. I just noticed how the tops of all of them are dark and don't appear to have mycelium.

What I assumed was the uncolonized tops, how dry they are, and the color of the cakes led to the "not looking healthy" comment.

I'd expect fluffier mycelium, which would be covering most of the cakes, and be slightly whiter. It's quite possible giving them more moisture will result in them bouncing back some though.

As yahra said, you're confusing a water tub and a tub in tub incubator.

If you were to do pf tek again, water tub is the way to go. Just not sure it's worth the effort of switching these out to one presently. The conflicting information you're finding is because mycology itself is pretty new, and we are constantly learning better ways to grow. Some people just parrot old information as how it must be done.


--------------------

That's the way she goes, boys. Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn't, cause that's the fuckin way she goes.


Edited by Way (04/16/23 02:03 PM)


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Offlinewanderer5
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: Yahra]
    #28280599 - 04/16/23 01:42 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Okay, got it, I have now looked at the link in Way's post about water tubs and now I think I get what it is. Thanks for catching that. Yes, I was using an incubator.

I just have to ask, what does "outdated" even mean? If all this outdated tek -anything at all- worked fine for hundreds or even thousands of people at some point in the past, why would it be so critical to change it? Granted, I can imagine some techniques have been improved over time to make things easier or better in some way. What I don't quite get is how any method that large, large numbers of people thought worked wonderfully well in the past are somehow total shit and will ruin everything now?  That doesn't make sense to me.


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OnlineYahra
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5] * 2
    #28280608 - 04/16/23 01:49 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Heat promotes contamination. That's why we don't use incubators anymore.

Took the community decades to figure out.

:rolleyes:


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InvisibleWay
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5] * 3
    #28280626 - 04/16/23 01:59 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

That's the thing. It's not all bullshit and a lot of it still works, just not as well as other stuff.

I'll give you a few examples. Keeping stuff in the dark during incubation or before "fruiting conditions". We used to do that, and then it was suspected and anecdotally confirmed from various people that mycelium benefits from light at all stages of growth. Doesn't mean keeping your shrooms in the dark will "hurt them".

We also found out that light isn't a pinning trigger. So all of the people recommending to paint the bottom of your tub or use a black liner instead of clear to prevent side pins are wrong. It won't hurt the grow, but it is not needed.

We used to recommend fanning. People would fan 1-5 times a day with their lid to provide fresh air exchange and help water evaporating. Then people realized that actually didn't do anything and just leaving the lid cracked or putting some holes in the bin could produce the same yields as fanning.

The SGFC was designed a long time ago. It can and does work in the right conditions with proper misting. But then people found out a water tub is easier to make and keeps the cakes moist for longer, while still providing sufficient fresh air exchange.

We used to recommend people not mist the cakes directly as that could cause bruising. Mist the walls instead. That's got some truth but we figured out a gentle mist from a foot or two away is fine and hydrates the cakes better than misting the walls.

Everything is constantly evolving. There is a few things that we used to do that is definitely not recommended, but for the most part it all still kind of works but there are better easier ways.


--------------------

That's the way she goes, boys. Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn't, cause that's the fuckin way she goes.


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Offlinewanderer5
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: Way]
    #28280634 - 04/16/23 02:02 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

My mistake then. I must have misread. Regardless, all cakes should be fully covered in myceloum before being birthed. If they never fully colonized and pinned anyway, that indicates some issue. Be it contamination, the wrong size jar used (can't really tell if these are wide mouth half pints or regular mouth), or something else. If you say they were fully colonized, I'll take you at their word. I just noticed how the tops of all of them are dark and don't appear to have mycelium.

What I assumed was the uncolonized tops, how dry they are, and the color of the cakes led to the "not looking healthy" comment.

I'd expect fluffier mycelium, which would be covering most of the cakes, and be slightly whiter. It's quite possible giving them more moisture will result in them bouncing back some though.




Okay, yes, I know what you mean now about they way they look, and this actually concerned me a lot when I birthed them. The reason that they look dark especially on top is that the vermiculite would NOT come off. I was trying to brush as much off as possible and a ton of it was completely stuck. The other issue you mentioned is that it just didn't look as bright white and fluffy as it probably should, even though the mycelium was there.  There wasn't much I could do about it though, and I actually thought the entire grow was fucked at that point but I just decided to wait and see what happened. I was SHOCKED when there were actually shrooms.

I did not make the PF Tek jars myself. Instead I ordered them from the company Midwest Grow Kits (which I have seen severely critcized hereabouts). I don't know if they did anything wrong or not, but I definitely plan to make my own BRF jars next time. (They were wide-mouth though which is good).The vermiculite seemed too deeply embedded for some reason. At some point during incubation, I noticed little specks that I thought were contamination and at that point as well I thought the whole grow was fucked. But I decided to wait and see what would happen as I couldn't tell if the specks were actually just vermiculite and condensation. It never got worse.

There's a lot of guesswork here and all I can say is I'm glad I didn't die! I really am being as careful as I can, but I don't want to throw anything out until I see how it goes. I worked too hard on it. I'm hoping that it's simply the case that not all grows look beautiful and perfect but they can still be OK.

Edit: I also just remembered that while birthing, I had to resort to using a knife to get a couple of them out of the jars, which I felt was sure to ruin everything. Didn't see any other choice though.


Edited by wanderer5 (04/16/23 02:07 PM)


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Offlinewanderer5
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: Way]
    #28280649 - 04/16/23 02:13 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Way:

Thank you for clarifying all that, I think I have a better idea now. How frustrating though, that all of the outdated methods you mention are in the book I've been using that's copyright 2016!  I strongly prefer to use books rather than the internet for many reasons, but I seem to be shit outta luck on that front.  I was going to do a post asking for book recommendations but I see that I'd probably just get a lot of "All books are out of date!"  FYI even the Shroomery.org guides about PF Tek are still recommending SGFC. But this site's cultivation guides appear to be nothing more than a compilation of copied and pasted posts with improper capitalization and punctuation. I find such stuff exhausting which is only one of the reasons I prefer books.


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OfflineDave Bowman
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5] * 1
    #28280659 - 04/16/23 02:18 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

wanderer5 said:
Way:

Thank you for clarifying all that, I think I have a better idea now. How frustrating though, that all of the outdated methods you mention are in the book I've been using that's copyright 2016! 




In fairness, a LOT of information and optimal techniques has changed since 2016.  So 2016 may be fairly recent for a book, but its missing a good 6+ years of trial and error and people dialing in optimal techniques.


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InvisibleWay
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: wanderer5]
    #28280663 - 04/16/23 02:20 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

You're
Quote:

wanderer5 said:
Way:

Thank you for clarifying all that, I think I have a better idea now. How frustrating though, that all of the outdated methods you mention are in the book I've been using that's copyright 2016!  I strongly prefer to use books rather than the internet for many reasons, but I seem to be shit outta luck on that front.  I was going to do a post asking for book recommendations but I see that I'd probably just get a lot of "All books are out of date!"  FYI even the Shroomery.org guides about PF Tek are still recommending SGFC. But this site's cultivation guides appear to be nothing more than a compilation of copied and pasted posts with improper capitalization and punctuation. I find such stuff exhausting which is only one of the reasons I prefer books.




There is still good info in a lot of books. I would suggest asking in the ask quick questions get quick answers thread about recommended books.

For what it's worth, This is the updated pf tek guide we recommend everyone start with.

You can also just ask around here about what you want to do and you will get dozens of people eager to give you advice based on actual experience, as well as links to good, proven, teks.


--------------------

That's the way she goes, boys. Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn't, cause that's the fuckin way she goes.


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Offlinewanderer5
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: Way] * 2
    #28280666 - 04/16/23 02:23 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Thank you so much. This has been immensely helpful and will probably save me a ton of work and worry the next time I do this. I really appreciate this advice.


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Offlinewanderer5
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Re: Does late birthing (after fruiting starts) disrupt the grow? [Re: Dave Bowman] * 1
    #28280673 - 04/16/23 02:30 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

2016 feels like yesterday to me, but I hear you!


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