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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Universal basic income
    #23742348 - 10/16/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I wanted to start this thread because I'd like to learn from you guys some more about the UBI dynamic.  What I know is this:

Quote:

A basic income (also called unconditional basic income, Citizen's Income, basic income guarantee, universal basic income or universal demogrant) is a form of social security in which all citizens or residents of a country regularly receive an unconditional sum of money, either from a government or some other public institution, in addition to any income received from elsewhere.

An unconditional income transfer of less than the poverty line is sometimes referred to as a partial basic income.

Basic income systems that are financed by the profits of publicly owned enterprises (often called social dividend or citizen's dividend) are major components in many proposed models of market socialism. Basic income schemes have also been promoted within the context of capitalist systems, where they would be financed through various forms of taxation.

Similar proposals for "capital grants provided at the age of majority" date to Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice of 1795, there paired with asset-based egalitarianism. The phrase "social dividend" was commonly used as a synonym for basic income in the English-speaking world before 1986, after which the phrase "basic income" gained widespread currency. Prominent advocates of the concept include Philippe Van Parijs, Ailsa McKay, André Gorz, Hillel Steiner, Peter Vallentyne, and Guy Standing.

(from Wikipedia)




Now, some people argue that in 10-20 years, automation will have eliminated millions of jobs, never to return.  Some solution along the lines of the UBI will have to be enacted.  There is also the argument that we could look at right now, and realize that 50% of the American population cannot come up with $400 cash in an emergency today.  A basic income would be an essential portion of income for such citizens.  However, I am aware that a basic income of only $10,000 per citizen would cost about $3.2 trillion.  So if we were going to do this, we'd have to work some kinks out (bigtime), and we'd also have not to mind the fact that we've adopted the policy of Norway.

Lots of hurdles, but I'd love to get any and all feedback.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23743911 - 10/16/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that until everyone has everything they want (or until the planet runs out of resources to provide it), I don't see the need for work going away.  How close are we to having everyone stay at home and having everything they've ever wanted provided for them?  We're not anywhere near that, and I don't see it happening for hundreds of years, if not longer.  And if it ever does ever happen, then there is really no need for a basic income - everything can simply be provided by automation.

My initial thoughts anyway.  Maybe I'll change my mind with further discussion.  :shrug:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23743962 - 10/16/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that a universal basic income is necessary to compensate the people for the loss of their birthright that happened when land became enclosed.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: viktor]
    #23744098 - 10/16/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The idea that humans or any species has some sort of birthright to land is beyond absurd.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Enlil]
    #23744389 - 10/17/16 02:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Why?


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23744538 - 10/17/16 05:33 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

UniversaL bASIC iNCOME:

Here's what we get:  One entitled class that runs everything;

A giant peon class who gets the 'universal basic income'

The idea is also known as State Capitalism or State Socialism.

Fuck that shit.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: viktor] * 2
    #23744640 - 10/17/16 06:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Because since the beginning of time, every species has taken what they can take based on their needs and their ability to fight off competitors for it.  "Rights" are just a social construct created by one species caught in an evolutionary half-step that gives us just enough extra processing power to be aware of our own mortality but not quite enough for us to accept it.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23745591 - 10/17/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm for universal basic income but not in every context, and not as a means to replace work but as a replacement for the welfare system (so by basic I mean very basic, as in not enough money to own land a car, a home etc, just enough to account for food and modest rented accommodations. IE, enough to keep temporarily unemployed people from becoming a nuisance as permanently unemployable bums, helping out disabled types a little more, but not creating an unemployable under-class with an incentive to not work. People would still work to attain more comfort more freedom and more self respect, and those that don't represent a minority of the species who should imo be allowed to live but not to breed.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Ezuma]
    #23747662 - 10/18/16 12:04 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Why not let 'em buy a car? Car manufacturers are happy, make a few bucks, maybe Detroit makes a few bucks, maybe some dude ends up with a job. Let em have a phone, too. Feed some kid in china. Plus a marketing exec needs a new yacht, right? A flu shot will probably keep them from wasting ER money at some point. Let them have a taste of the nice things a job can buy. Maybe they'll decide that living for free in effectively a slum isn't worth it.

Or maybe they will decide that it is, in which case, at least they have enough money to not mess with my nice society. I'm willing to part with a few cases of beer a year.

As we get more productive, the masses can get more freebies, cause stuff will be cheaper. That should keep them from rioting. Bread and circuses. Now it's Xbox and beer. Weed and Netflix. Eventually, I'll just make them some soylent green and VR that works to all your senses. It'll be awesome. You would literally have the choice to drop out of society and live completely in a little video world. Maybe some will do it. We already don't have enough jobs, this is a great way to free some up.

Everyone says that it would be terrible if people dropped out of society, because then they are not helping. That was true for most of history, including Rome. then we discovered fertilizer and penicillin. Now we have more people than we know what to do with. Sure, birth rates are slowing down, but that's kind of slow. War doesn't work, counter intuitively. A society where you are free to spend your entire life looking at a screen and getting another food delivery in your free studio in the complex a bit up the highway from the city is a society where the modern threat of overpopulation is no longer a thing. I'm willing to pay a few extra bucks to not have you clogging up my commute to school and work, I'm willing to cough up a few extra bucks to keep you under a roof, and I'm willing to pay a couple bucks to keep the screen on and the food deliveries on time. That way, I can save a couple bucks on tax-covered hospital funding for people that want a warm bed. I can save a couple bucks paying for the drunk to get picked up by the cops. Best of all, they'll be out of the way.

Oh, and don't forget to give them some soma. Make it illegal but available and not enforced in the complexes. That will give them their daily thrill while keeping it relatively peaceful, as long as you keep some agents in the supply chains. Plus, relaxing with a full belly and a blunt in front of the TV for the night is great!

Personally, I'd come up with a way to build a super-chair that acts as a bed and is totally ergonomic. With that VR, I think people would be happy in an old re purposed prison building. Maybe throw some paint on the walls, brighten the place up. Give em a workout area, optional of course. Some of the younger folks that want to make a few extra bucks on top of their basic income can go farm some food for the place. Maybe clean, fix things, run the on-site water treatment plant. Ya know, basically keep costs down.

EDIT: I guess the overall point is: Yeah, some people are super lazy. Some people will do this. I won't, I like what I do. Thing is, I'd rather not deal with a boss/employee/student that doesn't want to be there. I'd rather deal with people that are actually interested, and pay a premium to keep the people that aren't in a hamster wheel somewhere.


Edited by Kryptos (10/18/16 12:08 AM)


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23748419 - 10/18/16 09:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The thing that confuses me about UBI is where the heck does it come from?

From profits from nationalized industry? It doesn't make sense for nationalized industry to operate
in a fashion to generate profit, but granting that:
Where does the profit come from then? From people who are paying 2x too much for their nationalized utilities?
Is the UBI raised from taxes? But robots do all the jobs, what will there be to tax? Are the people who own all
the robots (and the gov't) going to be okay with being the only people making a net contribution to the UBI?

I give the idea credit as it seems to cut down on wasteful consumption and might be among the few models for
a truly sustainable economy. But it strikes me the wrong way morally.


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'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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Re: Universal basic income *DELETED* [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23748468 - 10/18/16 10:15 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: night_shift] * 1
    #23748573 - 10/18/16 10:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

night_shift said:
Dude. The current USA debt is how many trillions? I can't even be bothered to wonder about this stuff any more. I mean, to me anybody who thinks this amount of debt can and will be cleared is delusional



We've reduced this level of debt before:



How did we do it?  We raised taxes on the rich.  Easy peasy if we can convince voters like qman and peyote to agree to restoring former tax rates that worked on the super rich.


--------------------
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: night_shift] * 1
    #23748587 - 10/18/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

night_shift said:
I have a couple of issues with universal basic income and the first one is precisely this: that if it is implemented it will be implemented in a way that will not change the power dynamics for the good of the people. I may be wrong about this, I don't know enough. But this is, essentially, the question of how (and even why) power is going to be redistributed.




Well, it seems the ownership class would remain intact.  That is, the small elite that owns just about everything will retain their ownership, or, down the line, their offspring or confidants will.  The idea is that, in a jobless economy, there has to be some way for the non-working middle- and lower-classes to be compensated in order to survive.  The power most likely won't be redistributed, but a basic income for the rest of the citizenry would be the way to provide a balance.  Incidentally, many people (including a few in this sub) feel that there won't be economic redistribution of any kind, and we will slowly slip into dystopia.

Quote:

My second issue is, in the imaginable world where people are not forced to work for their survival, what do we do to counter degeneration - and I'm not joking here, just one generation of people who feel "wow, I can finally rest and enjoy myself now" is enough for the next generation to be completely clueless about where their salad comes from. So this is the question of how to have all the freedom to choose not to work at all but to have all the work done too.




This is a very good point -- what do we do with everyone?  It appears almost certain that in as little as twenty years, at least half of the jobs will be gone forever, due to technological advancement (AI and automation).  We'll have to organize society around something other than employment.  Anyone's guess about how this will go down is as good as anyone else's.  The work will be done by sophisticated machines, which will, as I said, be owned by the same elite that owns all the property now.  There will simply be much less work to be done, since everything can be supplied by non-human "labor."  It will be the dream of centuries to have a situation like this, but we are totally unprepared for it and the transition, it appears likely, will not be a smooth one.  We'll dip into high unemployment for years before anyone in the public sector brings any of this up, probably, all the while saying we'll "create more jobs" when the final inability to do that is the crux of the issue.  A bot that can work around the clock with no breaks, do everything perfectly and take no pay will be more attractive than the alternative for just about every employer.  That is why something like the UBI is so crucial.  We'll see what happens.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23748607 - 10/18/16 11:06 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

night_shift said:
Dude. The current USA debt is how many trillions? I can't even be bothered to wonder about this stuff any more. I mean, to me anybody who thinks this amount of debt can and will be cleared is delusional



We've reduced this level of debt before:



How did we do it?  We raised taxes on the rich.  Easy peasy if we can convince voters like qman and peyote to agree to restoring former tax rates that worked on the super rich.




"How did we do it?"

We won the largest war in human history, do you see another world war with the US being the last man standing?


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23748617 - 10/18/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

From a historical context the purpose this kind of policy has been used for in the past is to create a dependant helpless class who can then be killed via starvation when their benefits are taken away. Lenin did this type of thing in the early USSR days. He was very pleased when the "useless eaters" as he called them were all dead so he could get the economy going again without the drag on it. Don't be deluded, this is a plot to kill poor people.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #23748637 - 10/18/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If you kill the poor people, someone is going to have to take their place and clean the toilets.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Crumist]
    #23748653 - 10/18/16 11:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
If you kill the poor people, someone is going to have to take their place and clean the toilets.



The "useless eaters" don't clean toilets. They don't do anything really except sit around watching cable tv and eating cheetos. Janitors and people who have menial jobs would retain their menial jobs. Its just the useless eaters who consume and have no usefulness that will be slain. Thats the point Lenin got to.


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Invisiblenight_shift
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Re: Universal basic income *DELETED* [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23748857 - 10/18/16 12:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

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Invisiblenight_shift
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Re: Universal basic income *DELETED* [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23748863 - 10/18/16 12:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

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Reason for deletion: [delete]


Edited by night_shift (10/18/16 12:56 PM)


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OfflineSpanishfly
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Kryptos]
    #23748873 - 10/18/16 01:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Why not let 'em buy a car?




Nazi philosophy - called the Volkswagen.


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