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Offlineclam_dude
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The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication
    #23192391 - 05/05/16 01:46 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I have long had my suspicions about the narrative we've heard in recent years of police shooting black people at disproportionate rates, due to racism.  This article and study seems to support what I've been thinking for a long time. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27/this-study-found-race-matters-in-police-shootings-but-the-results-may-surprise-you/

I have always considered myself a liberal, but have found myself at odds with my fellow liberals over this issue.  I think it is actually a mistake to promote the idea that white police officers are likely to shoot black people in the back when they have their hands up.  All this does is make people less likely to comply with police, resulting in even more police shootings.  As this study shows, police might actually be more reserved about shooting black people.  It seems counterintuitive to many on the left who point out that 1/3 of police shootings target black people, although they are only 12% of the population.  However, 43% of police officers killed are killed by black people.  Considering that of people shot by police, 33% are black, this supports the idea that police are actually more reserved about shooting black people.  The strange thing is that the conservatives reading this are probably in agreement already.  But if you're a liberal like me, I think this is really something to think long and hard about.  We don't want to let conservatives run away with the facts.


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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (05/05/16 01:49 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: clam_dude] * 1
    #23192438 - 05/05/16 02:01 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

It's been a narrative based on propaganda, sensationalism, and lies since day one.

Any person with an open mind knows this is the case, only racists and people with an agenda continue to push this nonsense.

It's really not a hard sell to minorities and self hating white libtards, they live for potential discrimination.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: qman]
    #23192836 - 05/05/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

past data vs a study done on "highly realistic police simulators"


keep supporting american liberalism, at the will of the long arm of the rich and proud protectors of private property, to achieve the prettiest nicest consumerism possible.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: airclay]
    #23192993 - 05/05/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
past data vs a study done on "highly realistic police simulators"





There's actually no real conflict between past data and this study.  As explained in the article.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: clam_dude]
    #23193280 - 05/05/16 06:45 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

it really doesn't explain that at all. it dances around and muddies the water with a bunch of stats that are loosely connected. I mean, what's the point here? it doesn't talk about any of the real loss of data where-in local depts have almost no accountability in reporting. It doesn't cover the absolute lack of data and cooperation when in 2015 people started asking for these numbers. It doesn't give any rise to the fact that when those numbers were tallied.

and after typing that I've re-read and think I'm miss-connecting here on shooting vs arrest rates, which is def a different thing but I still feel the same about the presented article.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: airclay]
    #23193304 - 05/05/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
it really doesn't explain that at all. it dances around and muddies the water with a bunch of stats that are loosely connected. I mean, what's the point here? it doesn't talk about any of the real loss of data where-in local depts have almost no accountability in reporting. It doesn't cover the absolute lack of data and cooperation when in 2015 people started asking for these numbers. It doesn't give any rise to the fact that when those numbers were tallied.

and after typing that I've re-read and think I'm miss-connecting here on shooting vs arrest rates, which is def a different thing but I still feel the same about the presented article.




I don't understand why you're talking about what the article/study doesn't address.  I agree that there should be more stats on police shootings.  But that's not what this article is about.

It actually does make perfect sense that police officers would be more reluctant to shoot black people, due to the fact that they'll end up in the paper as a racist murderer.  That's what the tests show, and that's what the stats are consistent with - 43% of police officers killed are killed by black people, and yet 33% of people killed by police are black. 

My point is we can talk about the actual problems of police accountability without the fearmongering and telling people they should fear being shot with their hands up.  This only leads to more people resisting arrest and more people being shot by police.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: clam_dude]
    #23193564 - 05/05/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

because that is what the conversation is about. and yes that's what the stat shows, taking into no account the actual disparity between those two numbers. Which by the way in 2015 were 990 (only people shot to death by police https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/ ) to 65 (counting assault, bomb, gunfire, struck by vehicle, vehicular pursuit and vehicular assaults https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2015 )

Your point is business as usual. One that only leads to people forgetting and nothing changing about the police state or state of policing if you rather. It's one where you're expected to set aside your rights and comply to any order stated or escalation of the situation with absolute compliance at the threat of ass beating minimum. A system that's been shown to have disparities between is end product based on race. Your point only protects the continuance of the status quo.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: airclay]
    #23193612 - 05/05/16 08:25 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

No you're wrong and you can't stay on topic.  I'm not talking about the numbers of police killing civilians vs civilians killing police.  Sure it's all part of the same topic.  But I'm making a point about racial bias, as is this study.  If you're a police officer who's being shot at 43% of the time by black people (which they are), it would make sense that approximately 43% of the time you shoot back, it would be at black people.  In reality, police shoot at black people 33% of the time.  Sure this is just one study from a certain point in time.  But it is consistent with these tests that this article is about, showing that police have more restraint in shooting at black people.  And that's not surprising since it's no secret to the officer that he/she will end up in the newspaper if they shoot a black person. 

As to the number of police shooing civilians vs civilians shooting police, what's your solution? Tell half the police officers to let themselves get shot and even the numbers out? 

It's amazing because I agree that we need more oversight, cameras, etc.  But we have to make sense as well.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: clam_dude]
    #23193632 - 05/05/16 08:33 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Don't get me wrong, police abuse of power is often a problem.  I'm only saying that in shooting black people, police appear to be more reserved than shooting white people, as the evidence shows.  If you want to argue with that then argue with that.  Don't tell me I'm some apologist for police brutality.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: clam_dude]
    #23193663 - 05/05/16 08:47 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

so the end product of arrest and sentencing doesn't matter only this stat about murder rates by police vs death rates of police against set races. uh huh. your response to my solution being "telling half the officers to go get shot" and then defending yourself against accusations of supporting the status quo is quite a telltale


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: airclay]
    #23193695 - 05/05/16 08:57 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
so the end product of arrest and sentencing doesn't matter only this stat about murder rates by police vs death rates of police against set races. uh huh.




Who said anything about arrest and sentencing? I made a specific point about police being more reluctant to shoot black people.  And now I can't figure out what you've changed the subject to.

Quote:

your response to my solution being "telling half the officers to go get shot" and then defending yourself against accusations of supporting the status quo is quite a telltale




Well I was being facetious.  But really, do you have a solution?  You do realize that most of those 990 people were armed with guns right?  This isn't Germany.  I too am a big lefty.  We need more gun control.  But seriously, what is your solution other than to let police officers get shot?


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: clam_dude]
    #23194647 - 05/06/16 06:57 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I said that you're looking at an inane statistic that tells us very little overall about an entire situation. When you look at the end product being received by most citizens it tells a v different story.

My solution, why would I ever want any one shot? I don't know why you keep pinning that on me. You stated that in a "facetious" claim and are now putting those words in my mouth.

I would love to people stand up for their rights, smash the entire system and devise another way of justice, one in which the citizens are not just farmed for revenue at the threat of death or incarceration (which is punitive damages or retributive justice, has little to do with any actual rehabilitation). I understand that this can come in many different fashions and will take time but, I can not agree that the citizens should bear the burden while waiting on due process of change.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: airclay]
    #23194772 - 05/06/16 08:18 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Jeez man, there are all kinds of problems with the system.  Sure, tear it down.  But the idea that cops are more trigger happy with black people seems to be a myth.  In fact the opposite appears to be true.  That's all.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: airclay] * 1
    #23194781 - 05/06/16 08:22 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

the study doesn't really get to the heart of the matter anyway. what about the conditions that led up to the officer drawing his weapon in the first place? we find implicit bias in scenarios where officers are quick to escalate encounters to the point of lethal force being on the table.

it's also interesting to note that the journal the study is being published in appears to be distributed by a professional association that is more than a little establishment, going back to the early '40's with its founding members primarily consisting of high ranking california law enforcement officials. its history page gets interesting at the bottom. it chronicles a period in the late 70's in which the association battled with radical/marxist criminologists, who basically study criminology from the perspective of capitalism's effect on the criminal justice system. the associate has since allowed for more publications from this point of view.

there's a lot to process here about this association, so i don't want to draw any conclusions just yet. but seeing who is publishing the study may helps us gain a lot of insight into its quality.

here's a link to the asc's main page in case anyone is interested in digging around. i gotta get moving for class pretty soon and know i'll get lost in it if i don't stop.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (05/06/16 08:23 AM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: clam_dude]
    #23194808 - 05/06/16 08:34 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Jeez man, there are all kinds of problems with the system.  Sure, tear it down.  But the idea that cops are more trigger happy with black people seems to be a myth.  In fact the opposite appears to be true.  That's all.




The "war on drugs" has created many of these situations, blacks are more likely to be involved in street level dealing therefore more likely to be involved with law enforcement.

Blacks commit more violent crimes, that has nothing to do with "the system" of law enforcement.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: qman] * 1
    #23194830 - 05/06/16 08:45 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

a number of social movements, including the protest of the vietnam war, factored into the conception of the drug war. there was real fear about an educated public seizing control of the government. the drug war was part of an immense shift in policies starting in the '60's that promoted "tough on crime" attitudes that continue to inform lawmakers today. 1971 was a watershed year. there were so many crime bills that the majority of them weren't even seriously reviewed for their constitutionality, according to radley balko of the CATO institute in his book about the militarization of american law enforcement.


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OfflineMaroon
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: millzy]
    #23195090 - 05/06/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

First off that book sounds amazing and I may just order it today.

I also recall a few highly publicized shootings one in particular in south or North Carolina. Where cnn was replaying the cell phone footage of a cop unloading into a black guys back who was wearing white.

What's extremely noticeable in this video is lack of any response to bullets from the victim and or any holes in clothes and even more surprising not one drop of blood.

After many shots the victim falls to ground and the responding officers do not and I have checked this to make sure, so not provide one bit of medical assistance or vital readings which is SOP after an incident such as this.

Seemed like a staged media event imho


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UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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OfflineMaroon
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: Maroon]
    #23196092 - 05/06/16 03:52 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

It was South Carolina


--------------------
UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: millzy]
    #23196435 - 05/06/16 05:24 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
the study doesn't really get to the heart of the matter anyway. what about the conditions that led up to the officer drawing his weapon in the first place? we find implicit bias in scenarios where officers are quick to escalate encounters to the point of lethal force being on the table.

it's also interesting to note that the journal the study is being published in appears to be distributed by a professional association that is more than a little establishment, going back to the early '40's with its founding members primarily consisting of high ranking california law enforcement officials. its history page gets interesting at the bottom. it chronicles a period in the late 70's in which the association battled with radical/marxist criminologists, who basically study criminology from the perspective of capitalism's effect on the criminal justice system. the associate has since allowed for more publications from this point of view.

there's a lot to process here about this association, so i don't want to draw any conclusions just yet. but seeing who is publishing the study may helps us gain a lot of insight into its quality.

here's a link to the asc's main page in case anyone is interested in digging around. i gotta get moving for class pretty soon and know i'll get lost in it if i don't stop.




Fair enough, I didn't really look into the organization.  But let's just take the fact that 43% of police officers killed are killed by black people.  That tells us something.  I keep hearing from those on the left that 30 or so percent of police shootings target black people while they only comprise 12 percent of the population.  Therefore, racism.  I have no doubt there are racist police officers.  But the point is that there are other explanations for the discrepancy than simply racist police.  If 43% of people shooting at police are black, one would expect that 43% of people shot by police would be black.  But that's not the case - 33% of people shot by police are black.  This is consistent with the idea that police are actually more reserved in shooting black people.  And it makes logical sense - police are aware of the public outcry they'll face if they shoot a black person.  This all fits together.  And to me the study looks pretty rigorous, and is the largest of it's kind.  So sure, take it with a grain of salt.  But I don't find it surprising that police are more reserved in shooting black people, nor does it conflict with the statistics. 

I maintain that it's a mistake to push the narrative that there's an epidemic of police looking to shoot unarmed black people, as many seem to believe is the case.  It's anecdotal, but I have heard police chiefs claim that there is an increase in people not complying with police since Ferguson.  This will only lead to more police shootings.  Sure, he's the police chief and it might sound like right wing rhetoric.  But it's not illogical.  Drumming up fear isn't going to solve anything.  The real culprits are The Young Turks, The Huffington post, msnbc, and the like.


Edited by clam_dude (05/06/16 05:34 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: The epidemic of police shooting black people - a fabrication [Re: clam_dude]
    #23196897 - 05/06/16 07:53 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

you're conflating two issues here:

1. why black neighborhoods are plagued with crime and violence

2. police brutality

both issues are related, but i wouldn't say that they have a causal relationship to each other. the american black ghetto is the product of socio-economic conditions brought about by systemic racism starting around the time of reconstruction after the civil war. the hyper aggressive culture of american law enforcement is the product of fifty years of "tough on crime" policies, including the drug war, militarization and training that promotes escalation over negotiation for the sake of "officer safety". so we have two different sets of causes for two distinct issues here if you're following me.

we are talking about the issue of police brutality. nobody in their right mind is saying that the cops shouldn't defend themselves (or the public, god forbid) against dangerous criminals. but the police seem to be trained to immediately go to lethal force in situations where the suspect hasn't threatened anyone's life. the eric garner case is a perfect example. choking out a suspect for simple noncompliance is unacceptable by any standard.

so back to the study. you can't correlate the data from that study with anything having to do with police brutality because it seems to be working off the assumption that the officer is in a situation where her or she is justified in drawing their weapon. the meat of the issue is what leads up to them drawing that weapon to begin with. the study and its findings don't even try to address that. i honestly don't know what you could correlate those findings with.

(edited because i can't write today.)


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


Edited by millzy (05/06/16 11:42 PM)


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