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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
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Atheism is the only rational position * 7
    #17780069 - 02/10/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not trying to be confrontational.  That's just my honest opinion.

Ok, here are some things that I wrote over the course of the thread.  This should help to clear up my position so that new people here don't have to sift through my posts. 


"God" of course, needs to be defined.  But it is not up to me to define something that I don't even believe in.  Other than in debates like this, "god" is not part of my vocabulary.  It is up to the person who claims to believe in "god," to tell me what they mean.  But let's go with "god" as the christian/jewish god (although it still needs to be defined further).  I am an atheist with respect to this god.  If someone says "god is everything," then I would just question weather "god" is the appropriate word to use. 



In a court of law, the defendant is found either 'guilty or not guilty.'  Not 'guilty or innocent.'  This is because there is a claim being made that the defendant is guilty.  This claim is either true or untrue.  You could also make the claim that the defendant is innocent.  And that claim is either true or untrue.  So there are four potential positions to take, not two. 

Of course, you can't prove someone's innocence.  In finding someone 'not guilty,' it is not a statement that they are innocent.  A jury member might have their hunch (with varying certainty depending on the case/evidence). 

I find god "not guilty" of existing.  That is, there is not enough evidence to verify the claim that "god" exists.  I am not addressing the claim that "god doesn't exist".I am addressing those who claim that god does exist.  The burden of proof is on them to show god's existence.

I can't claim to know there is no god, but I do personally believe there is no god.  I believe this with the same level of certainty that I believe there is no tooth fairy.  I don't like to call myself agnostic about god for the same reason you don't like to call yourself agnostic regarding the tooth fairy.

It seems that the word "atheist" is generally misunderstood.  Over the course of this thread, I have heard that "atheists claim to know that there is no god" countless times. There might be a very small minority of self proclaimed atheists that claim this.  But believe me, the most prominent atheists in the world are agnostic as well (if only as a technicality).  It is those who have not taken the time to understand the atheist position who see it as dogmatic. 


If the word "agnostic" was generally understood to mean someone who does not believe in "    " until they see evidence for it, I would use the word "agnostic."  And of course, that is what agnostic means.  But if society understood it to mean that, then the word "agnostic" would have the same negative connotation as atheism.  Society takes "agnostic" to mean "well ya never know."  That's why you wouldn't feel comfortable (I'm assuming) calling yourself "agnostic" regarding the tooth fairy, even though you are one.  You wouldn't feel comfortable saying "You never know" regarding the tooth fairy, even though you are agnostic about it.  Yet you do feel comfortable saying you "don't believe" in the tooth fairy. 

Now imagine someone coming along and trying to pigeonhole your beliefs - either you label yourself as "agnostic" regarding the tooth fairy, or you have an unreasonable disbelief in the tooth fairy.  That's what it feels like to be an atheist.



--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/14/13 02:05 PM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] * 2
    #17780118 - 02/10/13 09:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What is your explanation as to why you hold that opinion?

btw, be confrontational. It is appropriate in this forum. Challenging each other's worldviews is the purpose of this forum.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] * 5
    #17780131 - 02/10/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

a position on one topic of debate....
there's lots of topics to have positions on dude. Not everything is about whether there is a god or not.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] * 2
    #17780133 - 02/10/13 09:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

You don't want this forum if you're not looking for opposition. You haven't offered any evidence that supports your rational. You'd do better in the Spirituality and Mystic forum with this kind of post.


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon] * 12
    #17780274 - 02/10/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Actually agnosticism is the only rational position.  It's just as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that one exists.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: falcon] * 1
    #17780286 - 02/10/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Well to be honest, I am looking for opposition.  Thanks for clearing that up - that the spirituality forum is where people go who aren't looking for opposition.  I had a hunch.  i guess I'll be spending more time in this forum from now on. 

As to why atheism is the only rational position:  The burden of proof is on the person who claims there to be a god.  If there is no evidence for god, then the only rational position to take is that of atheism (atheism not being mutually exclusive from agnosticism).


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17780308 - 02/10/13 09:51 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

fuck 'isms


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Offlinestillsearching
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Mr Person]
    #17780364 - 02/10/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
Actually agnosticism is the only rational position.  It's just as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that one exists.




:thumbup:

Also important is what one's definition of God is?


--------------------
“I wonder if being sane means disregarding the chaos that is life, pretending only an infinitesimal segment of it is reality.”

"Only to the extent that man exposes himself over and over again to annihilation, can that which is indestructible arise within him. In this lies the dignity of daring... Only if we venture repeatedly through zones of annihilation can our contact with Divine Being, which is beyond annihilation, become firm and stable. The more a man learns wholeheartedly to confront the world which threatens him with isolation, the more are the depths of the Ground of Being revealed and the possibilities of new life and Becoming opened."


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OfflineWithinity
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: stillsearching]
    #17780407 - 02/10/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Atheism can be cool but at the same time i have met many Atheists that have a similar mentality to a Religious person, like they go out of their way to try disprove others the same way a religious person would go out of their way to prove something.

Even a rational positional depending on the context can become an irrational position.


--------------------


Edited by Withinity (02/10/13 10:05 PM)


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Withinity]
    #17780563 - 02/10/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I'll try and address the above posts here.  Note that I said atheism is not mutually exclusive from agnosticism.  I am an agnostic as well. 

I agree that "god" needs to be defined.  But it is not up to me to define something that I don't even believe in.  Of course, I don't even know what I should be defining.  But let's go with "god" as the christian/jewish god (although it still needs to be defined further).  I am an atheist with respect to this god.  If someone says "god is everything," then I would just question weather "god" is the appropriate word to use. 

As for atheists going out of their way to disprove other people - I don't see what's wrong with that.  I don't understand why people don't challenge each other more.  For example, if a friend of mine is christian and really believes that I'm going to burn in hell, I'd damn well expect that if he's a true friend, he'd try and convince me to convert to christianity.

So yes, if you really believe something of such importance, you should be trying to convince people.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (02/10/13 10:27 PM)


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InvisibleAerial Boundaries
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Registered: 07/30/12
Posts: 333
Loc: London
Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude] * 1
    #17780707 - 02/10/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Well, no, atheism entirely precludes the existence of a god. Agnostics too believe that the burden of proof is on the person making the proposition, but the thing is that atheists are making a negative proposition of their own: 'God does not exist'. Agnostics take the view that 'God might exist, and the lack of evidence in favor of the idea makes it rational to continue thinking and acting under the assumption that there is no God.'

"fuck 'isms": The words of someone without a cohesive world view. Isms were invented as a convenience, they may not be categorically true in every case but they sure do make discussion easier.


--------------------
"The issue is not whether people are 'good enough' for a particular type of society; rather it is a matter of developing the kind of social institutions that are most conducive to expanding the potentialities we have for intelligence, grace, sociability and freedom." - Paul Goodman (1964)


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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: Aerial Boundaries]
    #17780739 - 02/10/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Aerial Boundaries said:
Well, no, atheism entirely precludes the existence of a god. Agnostics too believe that the burden of proof is on the person making the proposition, but the thing is that atheists are making a negative proposition of their own: 'God does not exist'. Agnostics take the view that 'God might exist, and the lack of evidence in favor of the idea makes it rational to continue thinking and acting under the assumption that there is no God.'





You're wrong. Atheism does not preclude the existence of god.  Some atheists might claim that god is impossible (depending on our definition of "god").  But they are the minority.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17780751 - 02/10/13 11:01 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree.

The human mind does incredible things with belief.
The placebo effect is a perfect example of this.

If one puts their faith in a higher power or maybe a type of destiny so to speak...The individual's will is likely to be far more stronger than someone who thinks rationally/scientifically.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez]
    #17780768 - 02/10/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
I disagree.

The human mind does incredible things with belief.
The placebo effect is a perfect example of this.

If one puts their faith in a higher power or maybe a type of destiny so to speak...The individual's will is likely to be far more stronger than someone who thinks rationally/scientifically.




I never said that belief in "god" is not a useful thing.  Maybe it is.  But that's different form the question of weather or not god exists.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17780780 - 02/10/13 11:05 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

My question is, what do you do when you are really afraid?


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: clam_dude]
    #17780850 - 02/10/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

cez said:
I disagree.

The human mind does incredible things with belief.
The placebo effect is a perfect example of this.

If one puts their faith in a higher power or maybe a type of destiny so to speak...The individual's will is likely to be far more stronger than someone who thinks rationally/scientifically.




I never said that belief in "god" is not a useful thing.  Maybe it is.  But that's different form the question of weather or not god exists.





I don't understand how it's rational not to believe in a higher existence?
Why is a rational mind so important to you?

I think a lot of the brilliant minds in the world and of the past lean more towards an irrational mind.


Edited by cez (02/10/13 11:23 PM)


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Offlinepsychedelicchick
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #17780853 - 02/10/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

"Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."


--------------------
"Over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." - John Stuart Mill


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: psychedelicchick]
    #17780859 - 02/10/13 11:22 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psychedelicchick said:
"Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."




Because someone believes in god they are unjustified?


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Offlinepsychedelicchick
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: cez]
    #17780870 - 02/10/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Its unjustified when there is absolutely zero evidence.


--------------------
"Over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." - John Stuart Mill


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/10/03
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Re: Atheism is the only rational position [Re: psychedelicchick]
    #17780871 - 02/10/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psychedelicchick said:
"Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."




Precisely.  Who's quote is that?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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