|
MicroMycelium
Curious Optimizer


Registered: 06/06/23
Posts: 461
Loc: Probably at work
|
Oat Grain Water Agar Tek Project
#28482413 - 09/25/23 02:07 PM (4 months, 18 hours ago) |
|
|
After searching to no avail for a calculated “Grain Water” agar tek beyond a few short-lived trials, I figured it would help if there was a specific Tek to do it accurate and consistently. So here’s my attempt at making one for Whole Oats.
(Some of these numbers are currently arbitrary as this is a work in progress)
Notable Information:
- The nutrient we want leached out while simmering/boiling is starch.
- Whole oats are composed of amylose and amylopectin.
- Starches gelatinize when exposed to boiling water, so less agar is needed.
- Amylose undergoes structural changes between sustained temperatures of 140-158F
- Amylopectin undergoes structural changes between 158-176F
- The grain itself(whole oats) retain 4-5x their weight in water when fully hydrated.
- At sea level, 15-17 PSI is between 250-260F.
- As this is a hobby and we are not in a lab, calculations will be done with median numbers for flexibility and expected results are approximated.
Some calculations:
- Whole oats contain 65 to 70% starch. We will use 70%
- Ex: if prepping 1000g whole oats, that is 700g of starch in your pot.
- Oat starch is composed of 25-30% amylose/65-70% amylopectin.
- We’ll just say 30/70% for simple 100%
- Amylose retains 2-2.5X its weight in water. Median = 2.25
- Amylopectin retains 5-7X its weight in water. Median = 6
- Agar retains 10-20X its weight in water. Median = 15
Arbitrary Tek Example:(Will update)
1a. Boil 8000ml boiling water & 1000g Oats for XX minutes. (stir occasionally to agitate starch) 1b.Example method to calculate proper grain hydration and grain water volume: 8000ml starting water - 4500ml absorbed by Oats - XXXml expected evaporation =YYYYml remaining grain water
2a. The math states(figuring it out) that whole oats lose X% of their starch per minute while boiling.
2b. Minutes boiled * % of starch lost, determines the total % of starch lost. Remember oats physically made of 70% starches.
2c. 0.7 * Weight of dry oats = total initial starch. Total initial starch * Total % of starch lost. Divide that number by how many ML of grain water you have.. You know now the approximate nutrient content of your grain water per ml3. Measure out how much total nutrition/sugar(grain water volume) you want for your agar, add XXXml regular water to equal 500ml.4. We need to adjust our agar amount according to our starch content now. - Oat starch is 30% Amylose, 70% Amylopectin.
- Multiply the total nutrition content(not volume) of however much grain water you used. Ex: 5g starch within 50ml
- *0.3 for Amylose content
- Amylose content * 2.25 for water retained by it
- *0.7 for Amylopectin content
- Amylopectin content * 6 for water retained by it
- Add those together for your “Starch retention” which states how much total water is going to be retained by the starches instead of agar powder.
5. Adjust how much agar powder you use by dividing the difference of your mixture’s “agar retention” and grain water’s “starch retention”- Find your “agar retention” by multiplying how much agar you use * the 10-20X its weight it can hold of water.
- Here we planned 500ml which uses 10G agar standard.
So 10g * 15(median retention) = 150g water retained by 10g agar powder.
- 150g “agar retention“ - 50g(random example) “starch retention” = 100g difference
- 100g water needs to be retained by agar in our 500ml. 100/15(median) =6.67g~ agar added if we had 50g starch in grain water.
6. Run it through the PC as you normally would. Done. Calculations being worked on to complete TEK:- During boil/simmer, how long it takes oats to reach full hydration at 4-5x dry weight(15-20 minutes typical according to online data), going to boil a few batches of 100g & 300g, air dry then weigh them until I hit 4-5x dry weight to verify time and see if quantity is a factor)
- During the boil/simmer, how much water/the rate of water evaporates. Boil/simmer trials will done with a fixed amount of water and once established In going to pour out the remainder to establish how much evaporated)
I will update this when I have more time to sit down and consolidate/simply the information. If you have anything to contribute or would change let me know
Edited by MicroMycelium (09/25/23 06:43 PM)
|
Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



Registered: 12/16/22
Posts: 1,521
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: MicroMycelium] 1
#28482448 - 09/25/23 02:36 PM (4 months, 17 hours ago) |
|
|
If you have to do all that, just buy some more LME.
I've used grain water for agar, but if it was that complicated I would have ordered LME long ago.
I'm sure some people will find this of interest, but it just seems kind of silly to me.
|
MicroMycelium
Curious Optimizer


Registered: 06/06/23
Posts: 461
Loc: Probably at work
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: Kinoko314]
#28482489 - 09/25/23 03:00 PM (4 months, 17 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kinoko314 said: If you have to do all that, just buy some more LME.
I've used grain water for agar, but if it was that complicated I would have ordered LME long ago.
I'm sure some people will find this of interest, but it just seems kind of silly to me.
The write up looks complicated because it explains the calculations of “why” it works, but it’s actually very simple.
Assuming I get the numbers dialed in… You hydrate your oats/grains with a simmer/boil in a measured amount of water for a set time, pour a measured amount of the leftover water in a media bottle with a little less agar and some tap water, then PC your grains and agar. Now you have sterile hydrated grains and a bottle of accurately measured grain-water agar that contains the same nutrients as those grains.
|
Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



Registered: 12/16/22
Posts: 1,521
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: MicroMycelium]
#28482633 - 09/25/23 04:51 PM (4 months, 15 hours ago) |
|
|
Alright, I may have rushed to judgement a little bit. The actual tek will ultimately be a lot shorter.
It seems like you are suggesting that all of the starches from the oats will be in the water, and none in the oats. Even if you know what's in the oats to start, how do you know how much of that has gone into the water? If there are no starches left in the oats, what does the myc eat?
Have you done any practical tests regarding the stiffness of the agar? I feel like if I have enough starch in GW to be replacing agar (even partially) then it must be too much nutrition anyway. I also never changed the amount of agar when I was making GW agar and I never noticed a difference in the stiffness. I'm just wondering if this step is really necessary.
Also you said that you found info saying it would only take 15-20 minutes to hydrate oats, but it usually takes me 40-50 minutes to fully hydrate them before a PC cycle. That's based on the whiteness (or not) of the middle of the grain, not on the weight.
|
MicroMycelium
Curious Optimizer


Registered: 06/06/23
Posts: 461
Loc: Probably at work
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: Kinoko314]
#28482645 - 09/25/23 05:03 PM (4 months, 15 hours ago) |
|
|
I’m wading my way through whatever actual studies I can find on the materials rather than just anecdotal evidence. If I’m able to re-create any of the tests myself to verify their parameters, I intend to.
The boil timing should be based upon the weight of the oats rather than the appearance, because we are aiming for heat-assisted hydration rather than “cooking.” I am confident that simmering for a longer time would allow more nutrition to leach into the water but I want to make it quicker and easier rather than an all day project for people.
Im searching for a study on nutrient loss into water via sustained boiled submersion. If I can’t find one for whole oats, the same conclusion should identifiable by comparing analysis of the starch content of the grain before and after boiling/cooking.
If nutrients(starches) left the grain through the process, the only opportunistic location for their relocation would be the water as.. well, there is nowhere else they could be. Assuming those tests exist, parameters for the amount of heat used and for how long should be specified… I can work backwards from there if necessary.
Edited by MicroMycelium (09/25/23 06:47 PM)
|
Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



Registered: 12/16/22
Posts: 1,521
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: Kinoko314] 1
#28483655 - 09/26/23 12:25 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
My main issue with only boiling oats for 20 minutes is that you wouldn't really be able to use that grain, as is, for your jars. I guess you could throw them back in some new water, but that would be a relative PITA.
I have a thought about finding the amount of starches/material lost from the oats to the water. You could weigh X amount of dry oats, boil them for however long, then dry and fully dehydrate the grain, and weigh again. Maybe I'll even fuck around with it myself a bit.
|
ReverendMyc

Registered: 03/29/19
Posts: 1,494
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: Kinoko314] 1
#28483673 - 09/26/23 12:46 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
Just a heads up that the oats, or any grain really, do not come to you fully dehydrated. They have some initial water content. So if you are doing comparative measurements by weight, be sure to dehydrate your grains until they stop losing weight before you begin to compare with what is dehydrated at the end.
-------------------- LAGM 2.024Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any moreHow to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice. Don't Panic   
|
MicroMycelium
Curious Optimizer


Registered: 06/06/23
Posts: 461
Loc: Probably at work
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: ReverendMyc]
#28483679 - 09/26/23 12:54 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kinoko314 said: My main issue with only boiling oats for 20 minutes is that you wouldn't really be able to use that grain, as is, for your jars. I guess you could throw them back in some new water, but that would be a relative PITA.
I have a thought about finding the amount of starches/material lost from the oats to the water. You could weigh X amount of dry oats, boil them for however long, then dry and fully dehydrate the grain, and weigh again. Maybe I'll even fuck around with it myself a bit.
Assuming they reach their full hydrated weight, why do you think they couldn’t be used for grain jars? Even the no-prep method just has water added to dry jars to hydrated with internal steam and the alternative method is a simmer.
Quote:
ReverendMyc said: Just a heads up that the oats, or any grain really, do not come to you fully dehydrated. They have some initial water content. So if you are doing comparative measurements by weight, be sure to dehydrate your grains until they stop losing weight before you begin to compare with what is dehydrated at the end.

That is a good precautionary measure. I’ll throw the oats I test in my dehydrator for 24hr before use.
|
Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



Registered: 12/16/22
Posts: 1,521
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: MicroMycelium]
#28483724 - 09/26/23 01:43 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MicroMycelium said:
Assuming they reach their full hydrated weight, why do you think they couldn’t be used for grain jars? Even the no-prep method just has water added to dry jars to hydrated with internal steam and the alternative method is a simmer.
It's just the way I learned from Bod's Oat Tek. I haven't heard of a no-prep oat tek. How do you usually prep your oats?
@ReverendMyc - Good lookin' out.
|
MicroMycelium
Curious Optimizer


Registered: 06/06/23
Posts: 461
Loc: Probably at work
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: Kinoko314]
#28483821 - 09/26/23 03:04 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kinoko314 said:
It's just the way I learned from Bod's Oat Tek. I haven't heard of a no-prep oat tek. How do you usually prep your oats?
@ReverendMyc - Good lookin' out.
250g whole dry race oats in a quart jar with 160g~ water. Heat the PC until lock pops, vent for 10 minutes, PC at 17 PSI for 120-150 minutes. Good quality race oats come already triple washed and I get 50lb for 15$ at a local feed store.
@Yoshi has a non-prep tek Here and there are a ton of YouTube videos recommending the same.
|
MicroMycelium
Curious Optimizer


Registered: 06/06/23
Posts: 461
Loc: Probably at work
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: MicroMycelium]
#28483827 - 09/26/23 03:12 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
I couldn’t find any relevant studies on the grains so I’m going to have to MacGyver my own tests.
- For hydration evaporation, nutrient loss tests - Variables are: - 250g Groats - Dehydrated prior - Time Boiled - Final Water Volume - - Controls are: - Initial water volume - 4000ml (may vary) - Heat, max convection oven - Tgun verify temp during boil - Surface area of water in pot - Larger surface = More evaporation - Occasional stirring during boil
Method: - Dehydrate Groats for 24 before use to ensure accurate dry measurement - Place 4000ml water in 12qt stock pot with known surface area - Place dehydrated oats in room temp water & bring to boil. - Sustain boil for 3 batches. - A. 20min, B. 30min, C. 40min. - Air dry oats with a fan on them. - Once dry, weigh each batch - Maximum hydrated weight is 4-5x dry - 1000-1250g for 250g dry - Measure out remaining water volume. - Add amount of weight gained by Groats for adjust remaining water - Subtract Adjusted remaining water from initial to get approximated amount lost to evaporation. - Dehydrate oats for 24hr - Compared dry weight post-boil to pre-boil for weight lost from nutrients leaching into water - Anticipated Results: - Identify accurate time for full hydration of the dry grain - Identify how much water is lost during that amount of time through evaporation - Verify pre/post boil dry weights to confirm nutrient content lost/transferred to remaining grain water from controlled amount of grain. - Additional tests for variance: - Different volumes and ratios - More Groats:Less Water - More Water:Less Groats - Same ratio, larger quantity - Same variables but longer boil time - To compare re-dehydrated Groat weight to check additional nutrient loss/higher content in grain water
|
Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



Registered: 12/16/22
Posts: 1,521
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: MicroMycelium]
#28484218 - 09/26/23 08:33 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MicroMycelium said:
250g whole dry race oats in a quart jar with 160g~ water. Heat the PC until lock pops, vent for 10 minutes, PC at 17 PSI for 120-150 minutes. Good quality race oats come already triple washed and I get 50lb for 15$ at a local feed store.
@Yoshi has a non-prep tek Here and there are a ton of YouTube videos recommending the same.
The fact that it's highly regarded on youtube is a red flag. Looking at his jars, I'll stick with what I've been doing.
|
MicroMycelium
Curious Optimizer


Registered: 06/06/23
Posts: 461
Loc: Probably at work
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: Kinoko314]
#28484240 - 09/26/23 08:58 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kinoko314 said:
The fact that it's highly regarded on youtube is a red flag. Looking at his jars, I'll stick with what I've been doing.
The more opaque appearance of the jars is the primary negative aspect of the no/low prep method, but sterilization is a product of your sterilization cycle’s parameters, not the tapwater you rinse your grains in first. One would think it would be a green flag when it’s regarded well with dozens of pages of successful confirmations on discussion boards, as well as on other platforms, but to each their own.
For reference, my last two no-prep oat jars doing their thing

But obviously I’m leaning away from that, as the entire purpose of the thread is for recycling the byproduct of avoiding that method and boiling lol
|
Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



Registered: 12/16/22
Posts: 1,521
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: MicroMycelium]
#28484252 - 09/26/23 09:16 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
Your Jars look better than his. I'll give you that.
I'm currently limited to 10 PSI anyway so I'm not sure it would work as well as it does at 17.
I have recently tried just cooking them in my ninja foodi like it was brown rice (15 mins + 10 mins before venting). It worked well, but I haven't inoculated those jars yet.
|
Sporulating
Stranger
Registered: 08/18/22
Posts: 1
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: MicroMycelium]
#28484273 - 09/26/23 09:42 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
I do oat water agar less scientifically: 1/3 to 2/3 oat/tap water, eyeballing for how much (of the not measured water) boiled off.
|
DERRAYLD
Constructus


Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9,281
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 44 minutes, 11 seconds
|
Re: Making an Oat Grain Water Agar Tek [Re: Kinoko314] 3
#28484338 - 09/27/23 12:40 AM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kinoko314 said:
Quote:
MicroMycelium said:
250g whole dry race oats in a quart jar with 160g~ water. Heat the PC until lock pops, vent for 10 minutes, PC at 17 PSI for 120-150 minutes. Good quality race oats come already triple washed and I get 50lb for 15$ at a local feed store.
@Yoshi has a non-prep tek Here and there are a ton of YouTube videos recommending the same.
The fact that it's highly regarded on youtube is a red flag. Looking at his jars, I'll stick with what I've been doing.
Just checking, is that a statement directed at Yoshi's jars? If it is, and I don't think he needs me to defend his jars, maybe consider he has a clue. Not just a clue but Yoshi has been doing this for a long time as well and knows what's up. His countless grows and success stories speak for themselves.
|
|