|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,808
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
something interesting that i just noticed. 2
#22316972 - 10/01/15 12:15 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bereshis 1 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
1 In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth).
2 And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.
3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light [Tehillim 33:6,9].
4 And Elohim saw the light, that it was tov (good); and Elohim divided the ohr (light) from the choshech (darkness).
5 And Elohim called the light Yom (Day), and the darkness He called Lailah (Night). And the erev (evening) and the boker (morning) were Yom Echad (Day One, the First Day, Mk 16:2).
6 And Elohim said, Let there be a raki’a (expanse, dome, firmament) in the midst of the mayim (waters), and let it divide the mayim from the mayim.
7 And Elohim made the raki’a, and divided the waters under the raki’a from the waters which were above the raki’a; and it was so.
8 And Elohim called the raki’a Shomayim (Heaven).
so there's a lot of weird shit going on here. let's break it down.
Quote:
1 In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth).
2 And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void[chaotic?]); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.
Without form and void, so in other words, just empty space.[or maybe a chaotic soup of stuff?] Now remember this part here about "the deep" and "the face of the waters"
Quote:
6 And Elohim said, Let there be a raki’a (expanse, dome, firmament) in the midst of the mayim (waters), and let it divide the mayim from the mayim.
7 And Elohim made the raki’a, and divided the waters under the raki’a from the waters which were above the raki’a; and it was so.
Those ancient Jews thought of Space as "the waters which were above" rather than just as part of the sky. and why water anyway? Did ancient hebrews have some understanding of weightlessness?
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
Edited by ballsalsa (03/19/19 09:50 PM)
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,808
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa]
#22317140 - 10/01/15 01:22 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
questions? comments? complaints?
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,808
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa]
#22340439 - 10/06/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Nobody else thinks its weird that the abrahamic religions worship a god from space as opposed to a god from the sky?
or that people several thousand years ago had a concept of space as being separate from the sky?
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 day
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#22341664 - 10/06/15 04:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I cannot remember the source, but the discussion of metaphysical waters referred to a primordial chaos, and later, some Gnostics symbolized this chaos by a dragon, which has been referred to as Leviathan. Anton LaVey used the name Leviathan in Hebrew to surround his Baphomet goat head in the inverted pentagram. Bearing in mind that mythology in general arises spontaneously from the archetypes of the Collective Unconscious, one must understand the relationship that the unconscious has on speculative metaphysics. Mostly, metaphysical assertions are projections of unconscious and archetypal material outward into the heavens. In the same way that consciousness evolves out of unconsciousness, the creation comes forth from the Creator. Water has been a symbol of the unconscious since the beginning of recorded history. Later on in Greek Pre-Socratic philosophers, Thales thought that water was the metaphysical Ground of all of Reality (I prefer Anaximander's positing of the Apeiron - the Boundless - an insubstantial Mystery rather than a known substance). But the author[s] of Genesis had a similar metaphysical notion in mind, closer to Anaximander's Apeiron than Thales' literal water.
One Kabbalistic author, the only one I ever read who had this interpretation, in all seriousness (Qabalistic Concepts by William G. Gray http://www.amazon.com/Qabalistic-Concepts-William-G-Gray/dp/1578630002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444170247&sr=8-1&keywords=qabalistic+concepts%2C+william+g.+gray), spoke of God 'voiding himself' in the sense of pooping out the creation from Himself! 
Of greater interest to me is the use of the Name Elohim, until creation, and then the Name becomes YHVH. Elohim is a strange hybrid of masculine and feminine, as well as plurality. Christian exegetes wanted this to be reference to God as trinity, even though that concept only arose in Christianity with Tertullian many centuries later. Of course polytheism existed along with the later strict monotheism, even in Solomon's temple (which housed male and female temple prostitutes as well as huge statues of Cherubim - divine beings that suggest polytheistic aspects to early Judaism along with Asherahs [sacred trees] worship as goddess consorts of YHVH).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,808
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
|
Quote:
spoke of God 'voiding himself' in the sense of pooping out the creation from Himself! 
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
lordhazil
Stranger

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 45
Loc: Israel
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa] 4
#22344150 - 10/07/15 06:34 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I just want to say that tohu vavohu in Hebrew means chaos, not empty space.
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,808
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: lordhazil]
#22344323 - 10/07/15 08:21 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
thanks!
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,808
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa]
#25884493 - 03/19/19 08:18 PM (4 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I like the chaos angle. I wonder if this could be to analogous cosmic inflation
Quote:
Approximately 10−37 seconds into the expansion, a phase transition caused a cosmic inflation, during which the universe grew exponentially during which time density fluctuations that occurred because of the uncertainty principle were amplified into the seeds that would later form the large-scale structure of the universe.[25] After inflation stopped, reheating occurred until the universe obtained the temperatures required for the production of a quark–gluon plasma as well as all other elementary particles.[26] Temperatures were so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds, and particle–antiparticle pairs of all kinds were being continuously created and destroyed in collisions.[7] At some point, an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and antileptons—of the order of one part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present universe.[27]
so, to paraphrase, right after the big bang, the universe was a hot ball of fast moving particles/antiparticles chaotically smashing each other at near light-speed and winking in and out of existence. Then, *something* happened and now the universe is full of much more stuff than anti-stuff.
Edited by ballsalsa (03/19/19 09:52 PM)
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#25884711 - 03/19/19 10:01 PM (4 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That's right, I am fascinated by inflationary cosmology. I feel compelled to add, though, that at this point most physicists agree that it's wrong. Naturally, this is not necessarily correct. Who knows?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: DividedQuantum]
#25885684 - 03/20/19 12:15 PM (4 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I would guess that ancients had no true understanding of the mechanisms of precipitation so they just assumed there was an ocean in the sky that let loose some water during parts of the year.
Maybe they knew of space but i tend to take the approach of the most obvious and simple being true.
My mom is a non fundamentalist theologian and says that "the earth WAS without form" can more accurately be translated as "the earth BECAME without form..."
So god creates "the heavens" (heaven (singular) as the spiritual realm is a different word than "the heavens" used here which is more accurately defined as the waters above the firmament) and the earth. Then the earth BECAME without form and void.
Flat earthers like to claim that god creating light after creating earth is proof of their theory, but it doesn't say that. Eons could pass between god creating the heavens and the earth, and it becoming without form and void and god bringing light back to the face of the earth.
Maybe this is a reference to a mass extinction event and the dawn of man afterwards?
Really this is a much deeper conversation which brings into question all of genesis. Adam and eve had 3 sons: cain, abel, and seth and at least 2 daughters. Ok so fundamentalists believe that adam and eve were the 1st people. Ok, then why was cain forced to wear a mark that identified him as a killer to outsiders? Who are the outsiders if Adam and eve only had 5 kids? Who was outside the garden?
The word Man has specific meaning. In hebrew Adamu means man, and the 1st man WAS adam, but he wasn't the 1st human being. He was the 1st human who was given a connection to god, the spirit which made him man. It says as much in the bible with the insinuation that there were others outside the garden that cain would eventually interract with.
It makes more sense if you view the story of cain and abel as 2 tribes or brothers of man and not actual brothers.
Anyway, adam and eve didnt have to come right after creation, there could easily have been billions of years before their existence with some event happening prior to the rise of man that caused the earth to become void of life, dark, and without form.
For the record I am atheist leaning agnostic. Western fundamentalism totally ruined the bible and its intent, though. It was written as an eastern religion for eastern thought, and westerners totally butchered its original message and bastardised its meaning.
--------------------
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,796
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: natedawgnow]
#25888087 - 03/21/19 01:03 PM (4 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Or the sky looked like the ocean at night
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 29 days
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa]
#25888416 - 03/21/19 03:38 PM (4 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
alchemical waters.
you can find references to 'nitre' in the old testament, OP.
Quote:
Or the sky looked like the ocean at night
ehhh, i don't think so.
Quote:
Nobody else thinks its weird that the abrahamic religions worship a god from space as opposed to a god from the sky?
nope.
Edited by akira_akuma (03/21/19 04:11 PM)
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,796
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: akira_akuma]
#25889364 - 03/22/19 12:25 AM (4 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If I was an ancient person this probably would have been enough to fool me into thinking the sky was like an ocean
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: sudly] 1
#25889566 - 03/22/19 06:33 AM (4 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The word "like" is not equivalent to "equal". It merely conveys a similarity - enough to make a linkage in some minds in some circumstances.
This thread brings to PS&P the shadow of Mysticism, but can be viewed as a facet of psychology which is a field that attempts to solidify metaphor, archetype, and behavior; and "like" or "similar" is very instrumental to the workings of the mind - specifically linkages between mind forms (thoughts/sensations).
The historical, and sociological effects of concepts like "the waters" + "the heavens" also resolve into modern political alignments; in a world where complexity exceeds understanding, and people fall upon shared metaphors to cope with daily confusion.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,808
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: DividedQuantum] 2
#25905966 - 03/30/19 01:41 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
thought you might be interested in this. https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.02603v3
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Tulipslave
Homo sapiens sapiens, lol

Registered: 07/25/17
Posts: 11,106
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#25911650 - 04/02/19 01:23 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
it is quite interesting, that multiple gods start out, yet we are left with "YHWH"
i have some theories on this, and was quite inspired to write a short fiction novel after hearing some discussion in a similar vein. i'm hoping to start working on it this summer when i have free-time and am not brain-dead from work everyday.
edit: in case you did not know, Elohim is plural masculine. note that i don't know Hebrew and have no background, but this topic has come up a few times in the last two months, and is worth pointing out.
Edited by Tulipslave (04/02/19 03:09 PM)
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: ballsalsa]
#25911752 - 04/02/19 02:38 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: thought you might be interested in this. https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.02603v3
Fascinating, thanks.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: DividedQuantum]
#25913518 - 04/03/19 12:01 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I wish my math were better so that I could read it critically
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 29 days
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: redgreenvines]
#25913807 - 04/03/19 02:56 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
everything's happening all at once, repose and manifestation, YAY! hooray!
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: something interesting that i just noticed. [Re: akira_akuma]
#25917338 - 04/05/19 10:56 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So there are many ancient mythologies which try to imagine the unimaginable. If ones into exploring this one could read Joseph Campbell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell
It is perhaps worth remembering that back then there were no printed versions of books. So both beliefs and texts probably varied a bit, even within the same culture from area to area. And secondly we have also mistakes and changes made during copying. As well as changes occurring during translations form language to language. As well as versions that have been lost and or destroyed or later omitted.
As regards our knowledge of physics & astronomy today, no one knows what is inside an electron, what is inside a quark, if dark matter exists, if there is dark energy, if any of the string theories have validity, how many more elementary particles await to be discovered, what goes on in a black hole ... etc.
Science also is struggling to understand: the origin of life, the nature of consciousness, the brain, dreaming, etc.
So to compare ancient written mythology with our supposed knowledge, seems an exercise that lends itself to endless speculation, but few if any firm or useful conclusions, IMO.
The anthropology and study of the myths of native cultures that use ethnobotanical sacraments, would seem more likely to be of interest & value to me. Some books are available on this aspect, for various cultures, and ethnobotanical sacraments.
|
|