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OfflineRonoS
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It's all about Oil...
    #843608 - 08/26/02 06:12 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

It's the oil that has us so economically addicted that we have resorted to the role of crack junkies who go down to the corner and buy what we feel need. This street corner vendor gets his supply from a chain of middlemen that ultimately links to big oil, the suppliers (pushers) who control the flow of this dangerous "drug".

It's the oil that led the Soviets to invade Afghanistan in the late '70s. And it was the oil that prompted the good ol' U.S of A to train the offshoot of Islam that produced the jihad that drove out the invaders. One of these components was the CIA-supported Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida. (which, like Frankenstein's monster, eventually turned on its creator and began blowing up U.S. embassies and similar targets.)

It was the oil that led the U.S. to look the other way when the Islamist Taliban imposed its brutal rule. Like the Soviets, companies like Unocal saw that the way to get to the vast oil fields of central Asia was by means of a pipeline route across Afghanistan. (which I have mentioned in previous posts) And the savage Taliban seemed able to bring stability to the region.

And, when the devout Taliban refused to take big oil's money, it was oil that prompted the U.S. to begin, according to The Washington Post in December of 2000, planning to take the country by force. (How convenient that 9-11 happened, giving the U.S. the freedom to take Afghanistan)

And it was oil that made the politicians look the other way as rich Saudis funneled money to the terrorists. And it was oil that made them look the other way as Americas other ally, Pakistan, did the same.

It is oil that leads the U.S. to support the brutal tactics of Israel's Ariel Sharon because the powerful need a stable platform in the region from which to operate and a puppet to do their bidding.

As a result, American tax dollars flow to Israel at the rate of $10 million each day... EACH DAY! In the last 30 years, the U.S. has spent on 4 times as much on Isreal as what it spent to get to the moon.

Of every dollar of foreign aid, 80 cents goes to pay for the tanks and planes of Israel. Forbes magazine lists Israeli lobbyists as the fourth most powerful special interest group in Congress...does that seem right to you?

When the day comes that you or someone you know boards a plane to join a war on Iraq, (the owner of the fifth largest oil supply on the planet) Remember that it is not the flag that has separated you from your family, it's not freedom or the Constitution. It's the oil.
An interesting article...





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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (08/26/02 08:34 AM)

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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Rono]
    #843673 - 08/26/02 06:51 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: vatoloco]
    #843681 - 08/26/02 06:56 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I couldn't agree more...the technology is already there, it just needs to be used.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (08/26/02 06:59 AM)

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InvisiblePGF
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #843799 - 08/26/02 07:57 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Electing men whose families are rich because of oil does not seem to help the matter much either.

I'm glad their is much opposition in the world right now to the thought of the US invading Iraq.



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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Anonymous

Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: PGF]
    #843815 - 08/26/02 08:06 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Neither should we elect a man who is a Senator's son, rich from tobacco, a career politician and who's family members attempted to rescind the first amendment in regards to artistic expression.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: ]
    #843849 - 08/26/02 08:25 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

AH..the PMRC back again...i remember that.

what's funny is all the people that are crying over the oil problem are the same ones who don't want us to drill in Alaska, or any other place that they perceive as pristine.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Innvertigo]
    #843913 - 08/26/02 08:53 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: vatoloco]
    #844179 - 08/26/02 11:10 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

oil isn't just used for fuel; about 1/3 of the petroleum is used to make plastics


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Lallafa]
    #844197 - 08/26/02 11:24 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not denying the importance of oil in our society...I am merely trying to show how the major oil companies affect the political decisions of the U.S...which has the best democracy that money can buy.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (08/26/02 11:24 AM)

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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Lallafa]
    #844199 - 08/26/02 11:24 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #844487 - 08/26/02 01:13 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

It's safe to say the U.S. governent had advanced knowledge of a major al Qaeda attack, but did nothing to stop it from happening. This was the only way they could invade Afghanistan for its oil.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: vatoloco]
    #844611 - 08/26/02 02:04 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know if I should reply to Lallafa or you. I think you were being ironic in your question; were you not? The alternative for fossil fuels, in ALL AREAS, is hemp oil of course.

As to the topic. Of course it is oil that the U.S. is interested in, it's not like we are talking about a vacation paradise here. I hope someone, somewhere, talks some sense into the administration. A, pre-emptive strike, against Iraq would be a most immoral action.

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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: mr freedom]
    #844622 - 08/26/02 02:08 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: vatoloco]
    #844662 - 08/26/02 02:23 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

bad idea...we'd all be smoking out tupperware


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: mr freedom]
    #844699 - 08/26/02 02:40 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I'm about 99% positive that the usefulness of hemp fuel is exagerrated in those pamphlets you'll get. It seems a little unlikely that hemp is the most effective alternative to oil, but I'm certain that we can find alternatives, we just need to spend the money looking into that instead of wasting it by drilling in Alaska.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #845021 - 08/26/02 04:59 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

we aren't drilling in Alaska...but i would love for us to find an alternative...that would teach them oil sucking arabs


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Innvertigo]
    #845195 - 08/26/02 06:10 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)


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OfflineEightball
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: vatoloco]
    #845255 - 08/26/02 06:38 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

the plan is to actually dry up arabian oil supplies first then we will start draining our sources (texas, gulf of mexico, alaska) and be much better off economically while we change to the next source of power while most of the world is still using internal combustion engine and will be severly fucked when oil becomes basically extinct.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Eightball]
    #845442 - 08/26/02 08:00 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

necessity is the mother of invention....we'll adapt


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinePhred
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #846016 - 08/27/02 04:49 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Rono writes:

It's the oil that led the Soviets to invade Afghanistan in the late '70s.

The Soviets invaded a hell of a lot of countries. The Soviet Union had enormous oil reserves. Afghanistan had none. Whatever the USSR's motivation was, it sure as hell wasn't about getting oil.

And it was the oil that prompted the good ol' U.S of A to train the offshoot of Islam that produced the jihad that drove out the invaders. One of these components was the CIA-supported Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida.

The US and the Soviet Union had been locked in a Cold War that had been going on since the end of World War II. It was standard practice for the US to aid countries threatened by Communism, oil or no oil.

(which, like Frankenstein's monster, eventually turned on its creator and began blowing up U.S. embassies and similar targets.)

To say the US "created" Al-Qaueda or any other Afghanistan-based organization is nonsense. The SOVIETS created them by occupying their country. Note that in actual fact, the US military aid to the mujahadin was virtually zero, especially in comparison to US military aid in countries such as Korea and Viet Nam and the ongoing aid to Israel. The aid which was given was "off the books" through programs such as CIA training, a few stinger missiles and explosives, etc. The mood of the American public was such (after the Viet Nam nightmare) that anything more overt would have been unacceptable.

It was the oil that led the U.S. to look the other way when the Islamist Taliban imposed its brutal rule.

Nonsense. First, the WHOLE FREAKING WORLD looked the other way. Second, it was not immediately apparent exactly how bad their rule would be. Note that the vast majority of Afghanis welcomed the Taliban at first, simply because the Taliban stopped all the fighting between warring factions by disarming the populace. Third, if the US had attempted to depose the Taliban years ago, you and others of your ilk would have been screaming your lungs out at this "unwarranted act of imperialist US aggression," claiming the US has no right to ever invade any country at any time for any reason.

Like the Soviets, companies like Unocal saw that the way to get to the vast oil fields of central Asia was by means of a pipeline route across Afghanistan.

DUH... The vast oil fields of Central Asia were OWNED by the Soviets. This was one of Hitler's strongest reasons for invading the Soviet Union -- to capture desperately needed oil fields.

And, when the devout Taliban refused to take big oil's money...

But the devout Taliban seemed to have no difficulty taking US taxpayer dollars to pretend to shut down opium production.

...it was oil that prompted the U.S. to begin, according to The Washington Post in December of 2000, planning to take the country by force.

I thought they were correcting their mistake of "looking the other way" and "allowing" the Taliban to impose its brutal rule.

And it was oil that made the politicians look the other way as rich Saudis funneled money to the terrorists. And it was oil that made them look the other way as Americas other ally, Pakistan, did the same.

Please tell us how a sovereign government can prevent a citizen of another sovereign government from making bank transfers.

It is oil that leads the U.S. to support the brutal tactics of Israel's Ariel Sharon because the powerful need a stable platform in the region from which to operate and a puppet to do their bidding.

America's support of Israel has nothing to do with oil. As for a stable platform in the region, the US has been an ally of Saudi Arabia (it even has troops garrisoned there, which pissed off bin Laden) since 1947. The Saudi regime is one of the longest-lasting in the region, and Saudi Arabia and the associated Emirates are the largest producers of oil in the world.

pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phred]
    #846086 - 08/27/02 05:37 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Well Pinky, it would seem that you and I will be dancing once again..so be it, I enjoy the banter...
In reply to:

The Soviets invaded a hell of a lot of countries. The Soviet Union had enormous oil reserves. Afghanistan had none. Whatever the USSR's motivation was, it sure as hell wasn't about getting oil.


And the U.S. hasn't invaded a hell of a lot of countries?..like I said before...it's not that Afghanistan has oil, it's the location in relation to the oil that makes it so valuable...and if it wasn't about oil, what was it? Was Afghanistan threatening the soviet way of life?
In reply to:

The US and the Soviet Union had been locked in a Cold War that had been going on since the end of World War II. It was standard practice for the US to aid countries threatened by Communism, oil or no oil.


Sounds good on paper my freind, but I call bullshit...it's about oil. Oil = Power...plain and simple.
In reply to:

To say the US "created" Al-Qaueda or any other Afghanistan-based organization is nonsense. The SOVIETS created them by occupying their country. Note that in actual fact, the US military aid to the mujahadin was virtually zero, especially in comparison to US military aid in countries such as Korea and Viet Nam and the ongoing aid to Israel. The aid which was given was "off the books" through programs such as CIA training, a few stinger missiles and explosives, etc. The mood of the American public was such (after the Viet Nam nightmare) that anything more overt would have been unacceptable.


The fact that the CIA trained Bin Laden and the Al-Qaueda network is already well documented. Nothing more needs to be said on this...The CIA chose to train a shady organization when the need suited them, but now that the tactics that were taught to them by the CIA are being used against the U.S....suddenly they are evil...talk about hypocracy.
In reply to:

Nonsense. First, the WHOLE FREAKING WORLD looked the other way. Second, it was not immediately apparent exactly how bad their rule would be. Note that the vast majority of Afghanis welcomed the Taliban at first, simply because the Taliban stopped all the fighting between warring factions by disarming the populace. Third, if the US had attempted to depose the Taliban years ago, you and others of your ilk would have been screaming your lungs out at this "unwarranted act of imperialist US aggression," claiming the US has no right to ever invade any country at any time for any reason.


yes, you are right, the whole world did look the other way, but the whole world didn't have a vested interest in Afghanistan like the U.S. did. Tell me something, if the U.S. is so concerned with human rights, why has nothing been done about the genocide happening in Tibet?...In fact we barely hear about it at all...I'll tell you why, Tibet has nothing to offer the U.S."...yet suspicously countries like Iraq, and Afghanistan are at the top of the U.S.'s countries to "liberate". Don't try to preach to me that the U.S. has the worlds best interests in mind, when it is simply not so..the U.S. has the U.S.'s best interests in mind, plain and simple...let's call a spade a spade here.
In reply to:

DUH... The vast oil fields of Central Asia were OWNED by the Soviets. This was one of Hitler's strongest reasons for invading the Soviet Union -- to capture desperately needed oil fields.



So are you admitting that the pipeline is playing a factor in this?
In reply to:

But the devout Taliban seemed to have no difficulty taking US taxpayer dollars to pretend to shut down opium production.


This is an easy one to explain...the Taliban belief system prohibits drug use, so it would only make sense to eradicate the drugs at any cost...even if it means taking money from the U.S...which I'm sure was nothing more than an attempt to grease the palms of the Taliban that failed miserably.
In reply to:

I thought they were correcting their mistake of "looking the other way" and "allowing" the Taliban to impose its brutal rule.


Yeah right...that's a good one...one word...OIL
In reply to:

Please tell us how a sovereign government can prevent a citizen of another sovereign government from making bank transfers.


They seem to have had no problems doing it after 9-11
In reply to:

America's support of Israel has nothing to do with oil. As for a stable platform in the region, the US has been an ally of Saudi Arabia (it even has troops garrisoned there, which pissed off bin Laden) since 1947. The Saudi regime is one of the longest-lasting in the region, and Saudi Arabia and the associated Emirates are the largest producers of oil in the world.


You have given me nothing but a brief history lesson of Saudi Arabia, please tell me how this disproves my statement about the oil.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #846108 - 08/27/02 05:49 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

oh God...not again...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #846164 - 08/27/02 06:12 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Teach them what?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #846237 - 08/27/02 06:58 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

eh?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #846260 - 08/27/02 07:15 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"...that would teach them oil sucking arabs "

??

Teach them what?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phred]
    #846265 - 08/27/02 07:18 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Proclamation 4908 -- Afghanistan Day
March 10, 1982
By the President of the United States

of America

A Proclamation

In December 1979, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan without provocation and with overwhelming force. Since that time, the Soviet Union has sought through every available means, to assert its control over Afghanistan.

The Afghan people have defied the Soviet Union and have resisted with a vigor that has few parallels in modern history. The Afghan people have paid a terrible price in their fight for freedom. Their villages and homes have been destroyed; they have been murdered by bullets, bombs and chemical weapons. One-fifth of the Afghan people have been driven into exile. Yet their fight goes on. The international community, with the United States joining governments around the world, has condemned the invasion of Afghanistan as a violation of every standard of decency and international law and has called for a withdrawal of the Soviet troops from Afghanistan. Every country and every people has a stake in the Afghan resistance, for the freedom fighters of Afghanistan are defending principles of independence and freedom that form the basis of global security and stability.

It is therefore altogether fitting that the European Parliament, the Congress of the United States and parliaments elsewhere in the world have designated March 21, 1982, as Afghanistan Day, to commemorate the valor of the Afghan people and to condemn the continuing Soviet invasion of their country. Afghanistan Day will serve to recall not only these events, but also the principles involved when a people struggles for the freedom to determine its own future, the right to be free of foreign interference and the right to practice religion according to the dictates of conscience.

Now, Therefore, I, Ronald Reagan, President of the United States of America, do hereby designate March 21, 1982, as Afghanistan Day.

In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand this tenth day of March, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-two, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and sixth.

Ronald Reagan

[Filed with the Office of the Federal Register, 3:54 p.m., March 10, 1982]


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #846268 - 08/27/02 07:21 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, so that's completely out of place, but it's worth a laugh.

Funny how even if something Reagan said didn't seem goofy in the first place, it's hilarious in retrospect.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #846339 - 08/27/02 07:57 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

that we don't need their oil....keep up my man


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #846425 - 08/27/02 08:52 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Well, okay.
Um.. yeah.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #847192 - 08/27/02 02:38 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry to interupt such a fine debate. Here is some information on the viability of hemp oil as fuel. Hemp oil needs no further refining to be used like diesel fuel. If we wish to use it as we use gasoline it can be refined just as crude oil.

Hemp can be made into a plastic that is, both, equaly as strong and resilient as todays plastics and bio-degradable; unlike todays plastics.

For your perusing pleasure:

http://www.hempcar.org/

http://www.hempplastic.com/

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OfflinePhred
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #847849 - 08/27/02 07:02 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Rono writes:

And the U.S. hasn't invaded a hell of a lot of countries?

I wasn't pointing out the fact that the USSR invaded many countries in order to show the USSR was bad, but to show that they did so habitually for reasons other than acquiring new sources of oil. The point is NOT that the USSR invaded Afghanistan, but that they invaded it for reasons other than the one you claim -- the lust for oil.

But to answer your claim that the US has invaded "a hell of a lot of countries", I reply: No they haven't. The USSR, on the other hand, invaded countries, occupied them, and took them over, making them part of their empire. Ever hear of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan or Kyrgystan? All were once independent bations, all were invaded and conquered outright by Soviet Russia. Besides the countries that were annexed outright, there were a whole raft of others which were invaded, occupied, and run as Soviet puppet states -- Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, East Germany, Albania... I'm probably forgetting some more, too. Those countries ceased to exist as real countries -- each was merely another province of the USSR.

Please name for us a country that the US has done this to.

..like I said before...it's not that Afghanistan has oil, it's the location in relation to the oil that makes it so valuable...

And as I said already, the oil you are talking about which needs to be pipelined across Afghanistan so it can be sold to Western countries is IN the ex-USSR "stan" republics... Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan... all of which were PART of the USSR at the time the USSR invaded Afghanistan. The Soviets didn't NEED to build a pipeline across Afghanistan to get Tajikistan oil, they owned it already. Do you finally get my drift?

For Pete's sake, Rono, you're the one who rants on and on about Americans knowing nothing about the rest of the world. Have you even bothered to spend five minutes looking at a map of the area to see the geographical location of any of the players in this drama?

...and if it wasn't about oil, what was it? Was Afghanistan threatening the soviet way of life?

Was Czechoslovakia or Poland or Azerbaijan or Hungary or Estonia threatening the Soviet way of life? The USSR invaded countries because that's what they did. They were expansionist and imperialist and their mission -- repeated over and over again quite openly -- was to spread Communism over the globe, starting with Asia and Europe. They made no secret of it.

Why did they REALLY invade Afganistan? I doubt if anyone outside the 1979 Politburo will ever know for sure, but it certainly wasn't about oil. The Soviets didn't NEED oil, they had oceans of it within their borders.

Sounds good on paper my freind, but I call bullshit...it's about oil. Oil = Power...plain and simple.

Clearly you have not even the faintest knowledge of history. It is not necessary to dream up some vast oil conspiracy to explain why the US came to the aid of Korea or the South Viet Namese or Somalia, for example. Despite the title of your post, it is NOT all about oil.

You say it sounds good on paper. I agree. There are literally dozens of scholarly books (all printed on paper) by internationally respected, neutral historians explaining in great detail the causes of those conflicts. Guess what? Not a single one mentions US lust for oil as a contributing factor.

You can say "I call bullshit" all you want, but you have nothing to back up your call except your own opinions. I rebutted every one of your assertions (i.e. the USSR invaded Afganistan because of oil, the US supports Israel because of oil) and the best you can do is to repeat "You're wrong and I'm right. It's all about oil... oil... "

Gee, what a devastatingly convincing argument. Boy, you sure proved me wrong. (sarcasm)

The fact that the CIA trained Bin Laden...

When he was aiding the mujahadin in Afghanistan, yes, he did have contact with the CIA. This was before he started his terrorist attacks. As a matter of fact, he did little or no actual fighting of Soviets himself; he was a financier, not a fighter. The mujahadin loved him because he gave them money. But even if the CIA had put him through grade school, high school, and university, how would it show that the US did so to get oil?

The CIA chose to train a shady organization when the need suited them, but now that the tactics that were taught to them by the CIA are being used against the U.S....suddenly they are evil...talk about hypocracy.

First, the CIA neither created nor trained Al-Quaeda -- bin Laden did. But, for the sake of argument, let's pretend they did. If the Frankenstein's monster of Al-Quaeda really is the responsibility of the US, then is it not the responsibility of the US to destroy it? Since when is it hypocrisy to clean up your own mess?

yes, you are right, the whole world did look the other way, but the whole world didn't have a vested interest in Afghanistan like the U.S. did.

AH. So it's okay for Canada or France or Germany to "look the other way" because they have no vested interest in a country whose citizens are being fucked over by a rogue regime, but it's not okay for the US to do so? And what vested interest did the US have that the others didn't?

Here's a question for you -- if the US had such a powerful reason for sucking up to Afghanistan, why did they not do more to aid the mujahadin during the Soviet occupation? Or, once the Soviets were expelled, why didn't the US set up a puppet government? You seem to believe the US does this on a regular basis. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to do this in 1989 than in 2002.

Tell me something, if the U.S. is so concerned with human rights, why has nothing been done about the genocide happening in Tibet?

Ah. The typical whine of the anti-American. "If the US is so nice, why aren't they DOING SOMETHING about the terrible situation in (insert any of three dozen countries here).

Admit it, Rono, if the US takes any substantive action in Tibet, you and your cronies will be screaming yourselves hoarse over "Yet another blatant power play by the warmongering imperialist running dog Americans. Gotta stick their noses into everything! They only pretend to care about the plight of the Tibetans -- they really just want Tibet's oil."

In the eyes of rabid anti-Americans there is literally no way the US can do the right thing. If the US even TALKS about overthrowing a repressive regime through direct application of military force, they're accused of being imperialistic. If they honor a UN trade embargo against the country in question, they're accused of murdering millions of innocents who can't get food and medicine due to the embargo. If they just register diplomatic protests with the UN (like half the UN member nations do without ever being criticized), they are accused of being naive and ineffectual. If they say nothing at all (like the other half of the UN member nations) they are accused of being heartlessly indifferent to the plight of (insert any of three dozen countries here), "because the country in question has no oil."

Please tell us what actions YOU think the US (or Canada, for that matter) should take to stop the genocide in Tibet.

Yet suspicously countries like Iraq, and Afghanistan are at the top of the U.S.'s countries to "liberate".

Iraq -- Saddam Hussein is a dangerous lunatic given to using weapons of mass destruction on inhabitants of his own country, invading neighboring nations, and lobbing the occasional SCUD missile into Israel. He has demonstrated this clearly already.

Afghanistan -- The reason the Taliban got whupped was because they were sheltering Bin Laden. If he'd been hiding in Libya, the UN coalition would have gone after him in Libya, and the Afghani Northern Alliance might still be struggling to take Kabul.

So are you admitting that the pipeline is playing a factor in this?

No, not at all. Look at a map. The Soviets didn't NEED a pipeline. The oil was on THEIR side of Afghanistan, WITHIN THEIR OWN BORDERS.

I had written: "I thought they were correcting their mistake of "looking the other way" and "allowing" the Taliban to impose its brutal rule." Your reply was:

Yeah right...that's a good one...one word...OIL

Sigh. You had originally said: It was the oil that led the U.S. to look the other way when the Islamist Taliban imposed its brutal rule... clearly implying that the US was wrong to "look the other way"; that they should have done something about the Taliban, oil or no oil. If that is not what you meant, why use the pejorative phrase "looking the other way"? I was using sarcasm to indicate my disagreement with your fantasy.

They seem to have had no problems doing it after 9-11

Only AFTER the WTC attacks, when some of the players in the international banking community were finally shamed into co-operating with the longtime campaign of the US (and other countries as well) to freeze bank accounts of KNOWN terrorist organizations. However, it is still simplicity itself for anyone with a bit of money and some decent fake ID to set up completely anonymous bank accounts and transfer funds between them.

You have given me nothing but a brief history lesson of Saudi Arabia, please tell me how this disproves my statement about the oil.

Do you ever bother to actually READ what I write or can you just not make the necessary connections? You originally claimed: It is oil that leads the U.S. to support the brutal tactics of Israel's Ariel Sharon because the powerful need a stable platform in the region from which to operate and a puppet to do their bidding.

Let me try to dumb down my original response even further for you. The "stable platform" that you claim the US needs is not Israel, but SAUDI ARABIA. Not only has the US had a close relationship with the Saudis since before the creation of Israel, but when it comes to being a "stable platform in the region" the Saudis have some huge advantages over the Israelis:

a) Saudi Arabia actually HAS oil -- the largest known reserves in existence -- and is delighted to sell it to the US. Israel has none.

b) Saudi Arabia doesn't require financial aid. Israel requires billions.

c) Saudi Arabia is currently in little danger of being attacked by its neighbors. Israel is surrounded by hostile nations who would dearly love to exterminate them.

pinky


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phred]
    #848206 - 08/27/02 10:55 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Once again pinky.... well done. I wish I had the patience you do and I wish I had your ability to spell out your thoughts so clearly.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phred]
    #848444 - 08/28/02 04:48 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Yes Pinky, that was another very impressive post and on the surface you make a very good arguement...let's dig deeper.

In reply to:

But to answer your claim that the US has invaded "a hell of a lot of countries", I reply: No they haven't. The USSR, on the other hand, invaded countries, occupied them, and took them over, making them part of their empire. Ever hear of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan or Kyrgystan? All were once independent bations, all were invaded and conquered outright by Soviet Russia. Besides the countries that were annexed outright, there were a whole raft of others which were invaded, occupied, and run as Soviet puppet states -- Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, East Germany, Albania... I'm probably forgetting some more, too. Those countries ceased to exist as real countries -- each was merely another province of the USSR.



Although I will concede that the U.S. does not "take over" countries like the former Soviet Union did by sheer force, they go about it much more covertly. By funding / arming rebels, and political / economical blackmail...by trying to get rid of Democratically elected officials because they don't subscribe to the American way of thinking...what about the coup in Venezuela on April 11, which was aimed at installing a military regime? and guess what? it has been linked to OIL, they are a huge producer. Why was Chavez warned before the coup by a senior official at OPEC that this was going to happen?? Sounds fishy doesn't it? What about a car bomb that went off in Lebanon in the 80's killing about 280 civilians, it was also linked to the US.
In reply to:

And as I said already, the oil you are talking about which needs to be pipelined across Afghanistan so it can be sold to Western countries is IN the ex-USSR "stan" republics... Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan... all of which were PART of the USSR at the time the USSR invaded Afghanistan. The Soviets didn't NEED to build a pipeline across Afghanistan to get Tajikistan oil, they owned it already. Do you finally get my drift?


Yes...I get your drift perfectly...Yes, the oil already belonged to the soviets...but the pipeline still played the same purpose then as it does for the U.S. now...to get the oil to ships so that it can be transported and sold to the western countries or wherever...unfortunately they don't just put oil in jets and fly it over here...do you get MY drift now?
In reply to:

Why did they REALLY invade Afganistan? I doubt if anyone outside the 1979 Politburo will ever know for sure, but it certainly wasn't about oil. The Soviets didn't NEED oil, they had oceans of it within their borders.


If you don't have a reason, then at least admit that mine is plausible...see above.
In reply to:

Clearly you have not even the faintest knowledge of history. It is not necessary to dream up some vast oil conspiracy to explain why the US came to the aid of Korea or the South Viet Namese or Somalia, for example.


Where did I mention those countries ANYWHERE in my post? Don't try to make an arguement that isn't there.
In reply to:

First, the CIA neither created nor trained Al-Quaeda -- bin Laden did. But, for the sake of argument, let's pretend they did. If the Frankenstein's monster of Al-Quaeda really is the responsibility of the US, then is it not the responsibility of the US to destroy it? Since when is it hypocrisy to clean up your own mess?


And as we already established, Bin Laden worked with the CIA, who is directly responsible for his actions...and they only "decided" to clean up their own mess when it was convienient for them...I think it's quite naive to think that the U.S. couldn't have taken out Osama before 9-11 considering he already had a history of terrorism and there are records showing that he was even treated in an American hospital in Dubai while he was still public enemy #1 What about the assasination of Anwar Sadat in Egypt in the 80's, this was the handy work of bin Laden's network and yes the Americans knew all about this, so your claim that "this was before he started terrorist attacks" is shot. What do you think that the CIA trained him in? Basket Weaving? Hello...
In reply to:

AH. So it's okay for Canada or France or Germany to "look the other way" because they have no vested interest in a country whose citizens are being fucked over by a rogue regime, but it's not okay for the US to do so? And what vested interest did the US have that the others didn't?


No, a thousand times no...it is not okay...but in all reality, what do you think the afore mentioned countries could have done?..the Soviets couldn't take Afghanistan, what makes you think Canada could?.
In reply to:

Here's a question for you -- if the US had such a powerful reason for sucking up to Afghanistan, why did they not do more to aid the mujahadin during the Soviet occupation? Or, once the Soviets were expelled, why didn't the US set up a puppet government? You seem to believe the US does this on a regular basis. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to do this in 1989 than in 2002.


You're right, it would have been much easier to take over in 1989, but at the time they didn't have the public support that they do now, thanks to 9-11...Jesus, I can't believe I have to explain this over and over....I'll try dumbing it down for this time since you were so considerate doing the same for me. AFTER 9-11, THE U.S. HAD THE BLESSINGS OF THE WORLD TO TAKE AFGHANISTAN, WHICH WAS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED. If the U.S. tried to go into Afghanistan previous to that, the world would have been screaming bloody murder...this way the U.S. is in a win/win situation...they actually get world support to take over Afghanistan and install a U.S. freindly government.
In reply to:

"Yet another blatant power play by the warmongering imperialist running dog Americans. Gotta stick their noses into everything! They only pretend to care about the plight of the Tibetans -- they really just want Tibet's oil."


Tibet has oil??? No...or any other exploitable resource for that matter...that's why nothing is being done.
In reply to:

Only AFTER the WTC attacks, when some of the players in the international banking community were finally shamed into co-operating with the longtime campaign of the US (and other countries as well) to freeze bank accounts of KNOWN terrorist organizations.


So if they had the power to stop funding to these organiztions after 9-11...what was stopping them before?...They knew who the organizations and players were already, or is the heavily funded CIA so incompetant that they were completely surprised by all of this?
In reply to:

Iraq -- Saddam Hussein is a dangerous lunatic given to using weapons of mass destruction on inhabitants of his own country, invading neighboring nations, and lobbing the occasional SCUD missile into Israel. He has demonstrated this clearly already.

Afghanistan -- The reason the Taliban got whupped was because they were sheltering Bin Laden. If he'd been hiding in Libya, the UN coalition would have gone after him in Libya, and the Afghani Northern Alliance might still be struggling to take Kabul.


Iraq - Yes they were guilty of these actions, but since the gulf war, what have they done?..face it, they are no more of a threat than Mexico is. Why was Saddam not so dangerous when he was talking to Kissinger in the late 70's about gassing the Kurds (which he did) and was given tacit US support?? Yes he is a menace but he was another example of a guy the US supported when it suited them.
The US also gave info to Iraq about Iranian troop movements during the Iran-Iraq war and sold him weapons, this is how the US handles dangerous lunatics...
Afghanistan - Okay, let's say that the only reason the U.S. went into Afghanistan was to get Bin Laden...do they have him?..no Do they even think he's still in Afghanistan?..no Why are they still there?...you tell me.
In reply to:

Let me try to dumb down my original response even further for you. The "stable platform" that you claim the US needs is not Israel, but SAUDI ARABIA. Not only has the US had a close relationship with the Saudis since before the creation of Israel, but when it comes to being a "stable platform in the region" the Saudis have some huge advantages over the Israelis:

a) Saudi Arabia actually HAS oil -- the largest known reserves in existence -- and is delighted to sell it to the US. Israel has none.

b) Saudi Arabia doesn't require financial aid. Israel requires billions.

c) Saudi Arabia is currently in little danger of being attacked by its neighbors. Israel is surrounded by hostile nations who would dearly love to exterminate them.



Yet Saudi Arabia is not as U.S. freindly as Ireal is it?...Just because they sell you oil, does not mean they are your freinds...they're just businessmen...they'll sell to anybody. Why isn't the Saudi government allowing the U.S. to use it's country if it invades Iraq if they are such good buddies of the U.S.? You can use your little insults on me all you like, I have been trying very hard to stay above that, since it will not accomplish anything but escalate the arguement.


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Edited by Rono (08/28/02 06:35 AM)

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #848455 - 08/28/02 04:56 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

I wish I had the patience you do and I wish I had your ability to spell out your thoughts so clearly.


I wish you did too...


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #848481 - 08/28/02 05:13 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

>> Iraq - Yes they were guilty of these actions, but since the gulf war, what have they done?..face it, they are no more of a threat than Mexico is.

True, Iraq isn't a major threat AT THIS MOMENT. Looking back on Saddam's leadership history we clearly see he was willing to attack Israel and even other Arab countries. Should we wait until AFTER he has nuclear weapons and uses them to remove him from power, or should we prevent that from ever happening by doing it now? In the perfect world the people of Iraq would realize that their leader doesn't have their best interests in mind and oust him themselves. We know for a fact that during the Gulf War his government run 'news' was telling outright LIES. I have no direct quotes but the jist was in the beginning that Iraq was WINNING over the US in Kuwait! When people are only given one sourse of of information they have no reason to think it's untrue. Why do you think our aid packages (grain etc) have USA written on them in huge letters?

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Frog31337]
    #848502 - 08/28/02 05:35 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Although I have no love for Sadam, he's not stupid. Although he has shown nothing but dis-respect for the U.S., he knows that he cannot win in a war against the U.S. He already agreed to let the inspectors come in, and the U.S. still wants him out. Sometimes I wonder if the propaganda in the U.S. news is just as bad as the propaganda in Iraq....
In reply to:

When people are only given one sourse of of information they have no reason to think it's untrue.


I couldn't agree more with that statement...what other sources do you get your info from bedsides American news stations? I'm not trying to be a dick, because I think you have a valid point, I'm just trying to show you the flip side of the coin.


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Edited by Rono (08/28/02 08:14 AM)

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #848651 - 08/28/02 07:01 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

WOW, shocking...another "America is close-minded" post.....Maybe we should let Canada make all the decisions........we'd all be eating walrus...


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #848654 - 08/28/02 07:06 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Why is it okay for Americans to critisize their own country, yet when a Canadian does it, the same arguement isn't valid? If I was living in the U.S. I would be saying the same things...get over yourselves...


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Edited by Rono (08/28/02 07:07 AM)

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #848714 - 08/28/02 07:37 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

It makes a perfectly valid point.

"How do you know your media isn't as biased a Iraq's?"

Respond to that comment, that's what he was posting about, don't change the subject.


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #848942 - 08/28/02 09:40 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

****"How do you know your media isn't as biased a Iraq's?"****

I know because the whole world is watching us. The US is by no doubt Liberaly biased. If anything they are against what the US does no matter what it is.

and how do we know that Canada's isn't as well? You people are more sheepish than those that you accuse...it's quite sad really


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #848956 - 08/28/02 09:49 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

yes, the whole world is watching you..and this part of the world is telling you that much of the time you are being spoon fed bullshit. As for if Canada's news is biased, why don't you find out for me? Read a Canadian Newspaper or watch a Canadian news program or even listen to the CBC or even the BBC and let me know?...oh wait..you probably can't down there can you?...like I said...what other sources do you have readily available to you other than your own?


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Edited by Rono (08/28/02 09:51 AM)

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #849258 - 08/28/02 12:15 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

I wish you did too




Oh the pain.... the pain.

Not getting any?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #849267 - 08/28/02 12:18 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry man...I couldn't resist


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #849714 - 08/28/02 04:52 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

he's reaching for straws now....he thinks the BBC isn't biased..sheesh


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #850627 - 08/29/02 06:44 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

>> Sometimes I wonder if the propaganda in the U.S. news is just as bad as the propaganda in Iraq....


I don't watch any US TV news, I do read the papers though. My other sourse of news is BBCWorld =) I am sure every news org is biases so I take everything with a grain of salt. Again true that Saddam cannot win against the US, but if I were him I would launch everthing I had (chemical, nuclear, conventional) at my enemies before I died. THAT is what I am afraid of. Desporate people do desporate things.

I do agree with you that the average American is ignorant of world/political happenings.

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #852752 - 08/30/02 06:38 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

"The US is by no doubt Liberaly biased."

Bullshit. Out of all the first world countries, the US is probably the most right wing.

"I know because the whole world is watching us."

The whole world is watching Iraq too. If you spent even five minutes looking at media sources from outside the US you'd notice that the american media is far more likely to blindly accept what the american government does as the best thing, and also far more likely to fail to report stories that portray it in a negative light. I really don't see how you can argue with this, you'd pretty much be forced to agree if you looked into it.


--------------------
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #852758 - 08/30/02 06:42 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Another thing to consider, how much of Iraq's media have you taken in? How can you possibly claim to know how biased your media is in comparison if you haven't spent any time analysing theirs?

I don't know if the US's media is more or less biased. I haven't been able to thouroughly analyse both, so I don't make any stupid claims like that.


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #853052 - 08/30/02 09:40 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Rono writes:

Yes, the oil already belonged to the soviets...but the pipeline still played the same purpose then as it does for the U.S. now...to get the oil to ships so that it can be transported and sold to the western countries or wherever.

This would all be so much easier if you would just look at a map. Ships can't dock in Afghanistan, since Afghanistan is landlocked. The two nearest ports are three hundred miles from the border of Afghanistan: Bandar Beheshti in Iran and Gwadar in Pakistan.

If you don't have a reason, then at least admit that mine is plausible...

So in 1979 the Politburo decided, "We need more money, comrades. Let us invade Afghanistan, and afterwards either Iran or Pakistan as well, so we can build a pipeline across those countries and sell our Caspian oil to the imperialist hegemonists, even though the Arabs are already selling the capitalists all they want to buy."

"But comrade chairman, we already have ports on the Black Sea. Why not build the pipeline to Batumi or Sochi or Novorossiysk? It is a much shorter distance to run a pipeline, it is a much shorter distance for the capitalist running dog tankers to travel, and we don't have to conquer two new countries in order to accomplish this. (Long pause...) Oh! I see!"

I leave it to those readers with access to an atlas to decide exactly how plausible a motive this was for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

Where did I mention those countries ANYWHERE in my post? Don't try to make an arguement that isn't there.

Sigh. It's DIRECTLY related to your argument. Let's do a recap, shall we?

Rono wrote: And it was the oil that prompted the good ol' U.S of A to train the offshoot of Islam that produced the jihad that drove out the invaders. Clearly you were referring to the CIA's assistance to the Afghani resistance movement, i.e. the various mujahadin groups.

psm replied: "It was standard practice for the US to aid countries threatened by Communism, oil or no oil." Here I am stating that the mujahadin received aid NOT because their country might some day have a pipeline built across it, but because they were battling communist invaders.

Rono wrote: Sounds good on paper my freind, but I call bullshit...it's about oil. Oil = Power...plain and simple.

psm replied: "It is not necessary to dream up some vast oil conspiracy to explain why the US came to the aid of Korea or the South Viet Namese or Somalia, for example." Here I elaborate with specific examples of the US assisting countries other than Afghanistan who were also resisting a communist takeover -- Korea and Viet Nam -- to show that the motivation for US involvement was anti-communist (or, in the case of Somalia, humanitarian), not pro-oil.

In short, the USSR did NOT invade Afghanistan to get oil, but to add yet another country to their expanding empire. The CIA did NOT aid the mujahadin to get oil, but to prevent the USSR from adding yet another country to their expanding empire.

And as we already established, Bin Laden worked with the CIA, who is directly responsible for his actions.

When did we establish that? Please provide us a mission bin Laden carried out for the CIA. Did bin Laden (as one of many trying to repel the Soviets) receive some CIA training? Yes. Did he "work with" the CIA? Nope. As for the "directly responsible" nonsense --If Moe Howard decides to kidnap a rich woman and hold her for ransom, and he subdues her using knowledge he gained in the US army during his basic training, does that make the US army directly responsible for his actions?

I think it's quite naive to think that the U.S. couldn't have taken out Osama before 9-11 considering he already had a history of terrorism and there are records showing that he was even treated in an American hospital in Dubai while he was still public enemy #1

Did they have opportunities to take him out before he moved to Afghanistan? Undoubtedly, and they were idiots not to have capitalized on those opportunities. But to say they deliberately refused to capture him because they KNEW (years in advance) that he was planning to move to Afghanistan and engineer the bombing of major targets within the US, then STAY in Afghanistan with the stubborn protection of the Afghani "government" is more than a bit of a stretch.

Remember who was running the show for eight years while Osama was becoming pubic enemy number 1. Why, none other than Clinton. Clinton was notoriously soft on terrorism, as was Carter. If every American president since the mid-Seventies had shown a policy of instant and effective retaliation towards Islamic terrorists, would the WTC attacks have taken place?

What about the assasination of Anwar Sadat in Egypt in the 80's, this was the handy work of bin Laden's network and yes the Americans knew all about this, so your claim that "this was before he started terrorist attacks" is shot.

Sadat was assassinated in October of 1981, but it was not at the instigation of Osama bin Laden. It was done by native Egyptians as a reaction to Sadat's repression of violent elements on both sides of the dispute between the Copts and the Muslims.

From http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/assassination_of_anwar_al.htm --

"In September, Sadat cracked down hard on both sides. There were mass arrests (nearly 1, 600 were detained). The powerful Islamic student associations (Jama'at Islamiyya ), which had started up after the 1967 war and which had enjoyed government favor throughout much of the 1970's, were banned on September 3. (The leader of one of these student groups at Asyut University, Muhammad Islambouli, was arrested and roughed up. It was his brother, Khalid, who assassinated Sadat the following month.)"

At the time of Sadat's assassination, Al-Qaeda had yet to be formed. That didn't occur until after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989. See:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1670089.stm

As a matter of fact, bin Laden wasn't even involved with the Afghanistan resistance movement in 1981. He became the chief financier of the mujahadin in the MID - Eighties. See:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/terror-qaeda.html

...but in all reality, what do you think the afore mentioned countries could have done?

And what do YOU think the USA could have done? YOU were the one who sneered at the USA for "looking the other way" while the Taliban enslaved their own people. To me this implies you believe the USA could have (and should have) prevented this from happening. I ask you again -- exactly HOW should the USA have prevented the Taliban from coming to power? What specific actions by the government of the USA would have been acceptable to you? When should they have initiated those steps?

AFTER 9-11, THE U.S. HAD THE BLESSINGS OF THE WORLD TO TAKE AFGHANISTAN, WHICH WAS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED. If the U.S. tried to go into Afghanistan previous to that, the world would have been screaming bloody murder...

I'm confused. I thought the world would have WELCOMED the elimination of the Taliban. I thought your contention was that it was WRONG for the USA to "look the other way" and allow the Taliban to come to power.

Also, note that the USA did not "take" Afghanistan. The Taliban was eliminated by Afghani forces, and the new government is being assembled by Afghanis, under the protection of the United Nations.

Tibet has oil??? No...or any other exploitable resource for that matter...that's why nothing is being done.

An attempt at sarcasm. If the US government WERE to help the Tibetans, you would doubtless claim their motivation was to enable them to build an oil pipeline across Tibet, since to you "it's all about oil".

So if they had the power to stop funding to these organiztions after 9-11...what was stopping them before?...They knew who the organizations and players were already, or is the heavily funded CIA so incompetant that they were completely surprised by all of this?

Read my post. Anti-terrorist organizations in many countries had been frustrated for years by the refusal of banks to co-operate. The key concept here is CO-OPERATION, i.e. VOLUNTARY action by the banks. The bankers BY LAW did not HAVE to freeze accounts on the say-so of the French SDECE or the Italian anti-terrorist squad or the CIA or the Mossad or the KGB or whoever. After the WTC attacks, two things occurred: many bankers were shamed into co-operating, even though they were not legally REQUIRED to do so, and new laws were passed in some countries making the seizure of accounts easier.

Iraq - Yes they were guilty of these actions, but since the gulf war, what have they done?..face it, they are no more of a threat than Mexico is.

Then why did Hussein refuse UN inspectors access to certain sites? Why did he kick them all out of the country? What was he hiding?

Yes he is a menace but he was another example of a guy the US supported when it suited them.

So he IS more menacing than Mexico?

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that once the US decides to co-operate with a foreign leader, it MUST continue to co-operate for all time, no matter what that foreign leader does later?

The US also gave info to Iraq about Iranian troop movements during the Iran-Iraq war and sold him weapons...

At that time Iran was a threat to the US, Iraq was not. Remember the Iranian hostage crisis? Let's not forget that the US also gave weapons and intelligence to the USSR in the early 1940s, when Germany was a threat to the US and the USSR was not.

Afghanistan - Okay, let's say that the only reason the U.S. went into Afghanistan was to get Bin Laden...do they have him?..no Do they even think he's still in Afghanistan?..no Why are they still there?...you tell me.

They (and other members of the UN coalition) are still there because until a stable Afghani government is formed there is a real possibility of violence breaking out again. As for bin Laden, he MAY still be in Afghanistan. No one knows for sure that he has left the country.

Yet Saudi Arabia is not as U.S. freindly as Ireal is it?

In the ways that count as a "base in the Middle East", they are MORE US friendly. For example, the Saudis allow (in fact, INSIST on) a permanent US military presence on Saudi soil.

Why isn't the Saudi government allowing the U.S. to use it's country if it invades Iraq if they are such good buddies of the U.S.?

Allies do not always agree over tactics and strategy. The Saudis were pleased to let the UN coalition base out of Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War while actual warfare was underway and there was a danger that Saddam wouldn't stop at the borders of Kuwait. Peacetime relations between allies differ from wartime relations.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (08/30/02 10:01 AM)

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #853064 - 08/30/02 09:48 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Rono writes:

You can use your little insults on me all you like, I have been trying very hard to stay above that, since it will not accomplish anything but escalate the arguement.

I try hard as well, but i find it extremely irritating that you won't READ my posts before responding to them. If you really are reading them, but just not making the connections, I apologize for my lack of clarity in getting my point across.

As for your argument, I want to make sure I understand it properly before I refute it further. Since you seem not to grasp some of my points, it is entirely possible that I am not fully grasping some of yours. Let me state your position here as I understand it, and if I have any part of it wrong, please correct me.

1) Top officials of the American government, including the president, had certain knowledge (how long before?) that Al qaeda were going to hijack several commercial jetliners and fly them into targets on American soil. The officials involved kept this knowledge to themselves.

2) Rather than arrest the hijackers before they boarded the airliners, these top officials decided to let the attacks take place. Their motivation for this decision was that they believed a SUCCESSFUL terrorist attack would legitimize an American overthrow of the Taliban (who were known to harbor the terrorists responsible) while a THWARTED terrorist attack would not.

3) There was either unanimous agreement on this decision among all the officials, or at the very least an agreement by those who disagreed that they would keep silent about their knowledge.

4) The reason Afghanistan needed to be invaded was because the Taliban refused to allow oil companies to build a pipeline across Afghanistan (from where to where?) and the officials involved believed a new Afghani government would allow the oil companies to do so.

pinky


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phred]
    #853139 - 08/30/02 10:24 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

If Moe Howard decides to kidnap a rich woman and hold her for ransom, and he subdues her using knowledge he gained in the US army during his basic training, does that make the US army directly responsible for his actions?

Couldn't you use another person for your hypothetical example? Like... Rono? I think he served in the Canadian armed forces.

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #853168 - 08/30/02 10:41 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

One of our best-kept secrets is the degree to which a handful of huge corporations control the flow of information in the United States. Whether it is television, radio, newspapers, magazines, books or the Internet, a few giant conglomerates are determining what we see, hear and read. And the situation is likely to become much worse as a result of radical deregulation efforts by the [unelected] Bush administration and some horrendous court decisions.

Television is the means by which most Americans get their ?news.? Without exception, every major network is owned by a huge conglomerate that has enormous conflicts of interest. Fox News Channel is owned by Rupert Murdoch, a right-wing Australian who already owns a significant portion of the world?s media. His network has close ties to the Republican Party, and among his ?fair and balanced? commentators is Newt Gingrich.

NBC is owned by General Electric, one of the largest corporations in the world ? and one with a long history of anti-union activity. GE, a major contributor to the Republican Party, has substantial financial interests in weapons manufacturing, finance, nuclear power and many other industries. Former CEO Jack Welch was one of the leaders in shutting down American plants and moving them to low-wage countries like China and Mexico.

ABC is owned by the Disney Corp., which produces toys and products in developing countries where they provide their workers atrocious wages and working conditions.

CBS is owned by Viacom, another huge media conglomerate that owns, among other entities, MTV, Showtime, Nickelodeon, VH1, TNN, CMT, 39 broadcast television stations, 184 radio stations, Paramount Pictures and Blockbuster Inc.

The essential problem with television is not just a right-wing bias in news and programming, or the transformation of politics and government into entertainment and sensationalism. Nor is it just the constant bombardment of advertising, much of it directed at children. It?s that the most important issues facing the middle-class and working people of our country are rarely discussed. The average American does not see his or her reality reflected on the television screen.

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/mediadeception/CorporateChokeholdMedia.html


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phred]
    #853192 - 08/30/02 10:57 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

In short, the USSR did NOT invade Afghanistan to get oil, but to add yet another country to their expanding empire. The CIA did NOT aid the mujahadin to get oil, but to prevent the USSR from adding yet another country to their expanding empire.

The CIA were destabilising Afghanistan throughout most of the seventies trying to turn it into an american base. Russia realised this and invaded to stop a US coup d'etat. The americans realised this was their chance to give Russia it's very own Vietnam and so prolonged the war by creating and arming the Islamic Fundamentalist movement. By doing this they prolonged a civil war that killed thousands of innocents and gave birth to Osama and al-queda.

exactly HOW should the USA have prevented the Taliban from coming to power? What specific actions by the government of the USA would have been acceptable to you? When should they have initiated those steps?

1) By not arming Bin Laden and the Taliban during the 80's. Afghanistan shares a border with Russia. Look at Cuba for an example of how the US treats countries close to it that if finds threatening. Now imagine Mexico was a russian controlled state. Would the US invade? You bet your ass they would.

2) By not inviting the Taliban heads of state to America and treating them like royalty as long as we thought they'd let us build an oil pipeline. It was only after they refused to let us take the oil that they became our "enemies". Before that we considered them wonderful people for stopping opium production.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phred]
    #866475 - 09/06/02 03:59 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

I'm still here Pinky...I think I answered your questions that you posed for me in the other thread (excpet for how long they knew), or do you have more?...I told you where the pipeline is being built, I've explained why...anything else I'm missing?


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #866623 - 09/06/02 05:55 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Robo writes:

anything else I'm missing?

Yeah. Did the officials involved know which targets were to be attacked?

Let me restate your modified position, incorporating your clarifications:

1) Top officials of the American government, including the president, had certain knowledge for some unspecified time before the attacks occurred that Al qaeda were going to hijack several commercial jetliners and fly them into targets (did they know which targets?) on American soil. The officials involved kept this knowledge to themselves.

2) Rather than arrest the hijackers before they boarded the airliners, these top officials decided to let the attacks take place. Their motivation for this decision was that they believed a SUCCESSFUL terrorist attack would legitimize an American overthrow of the Taliban (who were known to harbor the terrorists responsible) while a THWARTED terrorist attack would not.

3) There was unanimous agreement on this decision among all the officials connected with Bush's oil cronies, but even the officials who WEREN'T in the pockets of the oil interests -- those who disagreed with letting the attacks take place -- agreed that they would keep silent about the plot.

4) The reason Afghanistan needed to be invaded was because the Taliban refused to allow oil companies to build a pipeline across Afghanistan from Turkmenistan to the Pakistani border and the officials involved believed a new Afghani government would allow the oil companies to do so.

Is this a correct presentation of your position or do I still have some parts wrong? Pay particular attention to point number 3, as I am unsure I interpreted your answer correctly.

pinky


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phred]
    #866671 - 09/06/02 06:31 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

1) Top officials of the American government, including the president, had certain knowledge for some unspecified time before the attacks occurred that Al qaeda were going to hijack several commercial jetliners and fly them into targets (did they know which targets?) on American soil. The officials involved kept this knowledge to themselves.



Yes..they knew the Targets. ...the Mike Vreeland case clearly shows that. (Although not all of the intended targets were hit)
In reply to:

2) Rather than arrest the hijackers before they boarded the airliners, these top officials decided to let the attacks take place. Their motivation for this decision was that they believed a SUCCESSFUL terrorist attack would legitimize an American overthrow of the Taliban (who were known to harbor the terrorists responsible) while a THWARTED terrorist attack would not.


That's not really how I would put it...but close enough for arguments sake.
In reply to:

3) There was unanimous agreement on this decision among all the officials connected with Bush's oil cronies, but even the officials who WEREN'T in the pockets of the oil interests -- those who disagreed with letting the attacks take place -- agreed that they would keep silent about the plot.



No...I suspect that those that had any chance of disagreeing were not informed, I also doubt that many people knew how everything fit together until afterwards. Each player had his own piece of the puzzle, but not the whole picture.
In reply to:

4) The reason Afghanistan needed to be invaded was because the Taliban refused to allow oil companies to build a pipeline across Afghanistan from Turkmenistan to the Pakistani border and the officials involved believed a new Afghani government would allow the oil companies to do so.



Yes...that is correct.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #866802 - 09/06/02 07:36 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

4) The reason Afghanistan needed to be invaded was because the Taliban refused to allow oil companies to build a pipeline across Afghanistan from Turkmenistan to the Pakistani border and the officials involved believed a new Afghani government would allow the oil companies to do so.

True. There's a lot of evidence that the US were going to invade Afghanistan even before Sep 11.


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Xlea321]
    #866919 - 09/06/02 08:26 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

then you'll be so kind to post the evidence? To date yours has been null and void

While i have no love for Rono at least he TRYS to post evidence and doesn't just spout out a number


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #867075 - 09/06/02 09:35 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Strange. I posted 3 quotes from UN officials and UNICEF in the other thread. None of you had the balls to reply then. Seems like when you get the sources you go quiet and just stick to those threads where you can say meaningless garbage like "I want the sources".

I have to assume a common level of knowledge. If you've never heard of UNICEF or the UN reports on this I can't help you. You need to educate yourselves first.


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Xlea321]
    #868646 - 09/07/02 09:01 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

so you're not going to post any evidence?


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #869448 - 09/07/02 02:44 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

You've never heard of the Taliban invitation to the US to discuss if they would allow them to build a pipeline through Afghanistan?

Go to any major news source, do a search and educate yourself. Don't rely on me spoon-feeding you. When you have a basic level of knowledge we can make some progress.


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #1045786 - 11/12/02 08:54 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Bumpity bump...just for Invertigo... :grin:


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #1045789 - 11/12/02 08:59 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

thanks...so that's 2 threads i'm going to ignore :grin:

atleast your's didn't say "i dare you to debate me" that just tells me that it'll be an extremely boring debate.


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1045793 - 11/12/02 09:01 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

It's okay...nobody expects you to understand what's going on...go back to your happy place... :smirk:


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #1045798 - 11/12/02 09:03 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

****nobody expects you to understand what's going on****

how many times do we need to go over this until it loses its meaning?  I'm serious, how many horses must be beaten to death in order for you people to pick another topic?

must be a libbie thing. :smirk:


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1045811 - 11/12/02 09:13 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I apoligize if talking about events that affect the world bore you...maybe the Cheers forum is more your speed?


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Phluck]
    #1045835 - 11/12/02 09:29 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Ive said it before and I'll say it again:  HEMP!  How come most people dont even consider this as the optimum alternate resource for fuel among many other things. People make jokes about smoking hemp products and shit like that which gives it a bad name. It is this reason that nobody takes it seriously. Henry Ford made a fucking car out of hemp derrived material (well the body of the car and interior at least) and ran it on hemp fuel and kept it running with hemp motor oil. We just keep selling our souls to the big petrolium companies and they keep on smothering the better resources for their own financial gain. This will continue until they run out of oil deposits to sell us, and stand there clueless as to what the US will do with no fuel (which isnt but about 20 or so years away). We wouldnt have to invade Iraq if we GREW our own fuel on our own land and began thorough research on it. mr freedom seems to know what he's talking about on the hemp fuel subject, thanks for the links man, you help get the word out. Hemp fuel is the closest that we'll get to our "precious" fossil fuels and they are clean burning. I cant see any drawbacks. :tongue: 


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #1045866 - 11/12/02 09:45 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

****maybe the Cheers forum is more your speed? ****

that hurt.....that really did.....

they do concern me...but not the 10th time mind you....


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Edited by Innvertigo (11/12/02 09:49 AM)

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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #1046179 - 11/12/02 12:04 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

An excellent link that I found today...

Iraq: The Other war


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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: Rono]
    #1047403 - 11/12/02 06:19 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The other war is really the war that we will be fighting.

I still think that fighting for peace is an oxymoron, and fighting against terror, with no real target is a little absurd.

I'm all for killing Saddam, but, with how many civilans and childrens lifes are we ready to take away before that happends?

Iraq should have weapons, but, not in the hands of a psycho... :smile:

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: It's all about Oil... [Re: bluesky]
    #1048760 - 11/13/02 07:15 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I have noticed how people tend to ignore it when its mentioned.

What happens when a car runs out of oil? lets hope the same thing dont happen when the planet runs out of oil

WE ARE A FUCKING PLAGUE


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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