|
 Ellis Dee
Archangel
 
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
 Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen 
#1075349 - 11/21/02 10:39 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
NYT: Pentagon Plans a Computer System That Would Peek at Personal Data of Americans
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/09/politics/09COMP.html (link requires registration)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
November 9, 2002
Pentagon Plans a Computer System That Would Peek at Personal Data of Americans
By JOHN MARKOFF
The Pentagon is constructing a computer system that could create a vast electronic dragnet, searching for personal information as part of the hunt for terrorists around the globe — including the United States.
As the director of the effort, Vice Adm. John M. Poindexter, has described the system in Pentagon documents and in speeches, it will provide intelligence analysts and law enforcement officials with instant access to information from Internet mail and calling records to credit card and banking transactions and travel documents, without a search warrant.
Historically, military and intelligence agencies have not been permitted to spy on Americans without extraordinary legal authorization. But Admiral Poindexter, the former national security adviser in the Reagan administration, has argued that the government needs broad new powers to process, store and mine billions of minute details of electronic life in the United States.
Admiral Poindexter, who has described the plan in public documents and speeches but declined to be interviewed, has said that the government needs to "break down the stovepipes" that separate commercial and government databases, allowing teams of intelligence agency analysts to hunt for hidden patterns of activity with powerful computers.
"We must become much more efficient and more clever in the ways we find new sources of data, mine information from the new and old, generate information, make it available for analysis, convert it to knowledge, and create actionable options," he said in a speech in California earlier this year.
Admiral Poindexter quietly returned to the government in January to take charge of the Office of Information Awareness at the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, known as Darpa. The office is responsible for developing new surveillance technologies in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks.
In order to deploy such a system, known as Total Information Awareness, new legislation would be needed, some of which has been proposed by the Bush administration in the Homeland Security Act that is now before Congress. That legislation would amend the Privacy Act of 1974, which was intended to limit what government agencies could do with private information.
The possibility that the system might be deployed domestically to let intelligence officials look into commercial transactions worries civil liberties proponents.
"This could be the perfect storm for civil liberties in America," said Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington "The vehicle is the Homeland Security Act, the technology is Darpa and the agency is the F.B.I. The outcome is a system of national surveillance of the American public."
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld has been briefed on the project by Admiral Poindexter and the two had a lunch to discuss it, according to a Pentagon spokesman.
"As part of our development process, we hope to coordinate with a variety of organizations, to include the law enforcement community," a Pentagon spokeswoman said.
An F.B.I. official, who spoke on the condition that he not be identified, said the bureau had had preliminary discussions with the Pentagon about the project but that no final decision had been made about what information the F.B.I. might add to the system.
A spokesman for the White House Office of Homeland Security, Gordon Johndroe, said officials in the office were not familiar with the computer project and he declined to discuss concerns raised by the project's critics without knowing more about it.
He referred all questions to the Defense Department, where officials said they could not address civil liberties concerns because they too were not familiar enough with the project.
Some members of a panel of computer scientists and policy experts who were asked by the Pentagon to review the privacy implications this summer said terrorists might find ways to avoid detection and that the system might be easily abused.
"A lot of my colleagues are uncomfortable about this and worry about the potential uses that this technology might be put, if not by this administration then by a future one," said Barbara Simon, a computer scientist who is past president of the Association of Computing Machinery. "Once you've got it in place you can't control it."
Other technology policy experts dispute that assessment and support Admiral Poindexter's position that linking of databases is necessary to track potential enemies operating inside the United States.
"They're conceptualizing the problem in the way we've suggested it needs to be understood," said Philip Zelikow, a historian who is executive director of the Markle Foundation task force on National Security in the Information Age. "They have a pretty good vision of the need to make the tradeoffs in favor of more sharing and openness."
On Wednesday morning, the panel reported its findings to Dr. Tony Tether, the director of the defense research agency, urging development of technologies to protect privacy as well as surveillance, according to several people who attended the meeting.
If deployed, civil libertarians argue, the computer system would rapidly bring a surveillance state. They assert that potential terrorists would soon learn how to avoid detection in any case.
The new system will rely on a set of computer-based pattern recognition techniques known as "data mining," a set of statistical techniques used by scientists as well as by marketers searching for potential customers.
The system would permit a team of intelligence analysts to gather and view information from databases, pursue links between individuals and groups, respond to automatic alerts, and share information efficiently, all from their individual computers.
The project calls for the development of a prototype based on test data that would be deployed at the Army Intelligence and Security Command at Fort Belvoir, Va. Officials would not say when the system would be put into operation.
The system is one of a number of projects now under way inside the government to lash together both commercial and government data to hunt for patterns of terrorist activities.
"What we are doing is developing technologies and a prototype system to revolutionize the ability of the United States to detect, classify and identify foreign terrorists, and decipher their plans, and thereby enable the U.S. to take timely action to successfully pre-empt and defeat terrorist acts," said Jan Walker, the spokeswoman for the defense research agency.
Before taking the position at the Pentagon, Admiral Poindexter, who was convicted in 1990 for his role in the Iran-contra affair, had worked as a contractor on one of the projects he now controls. Admiral Poindexter's conviction was reversed in 1991 by a federal appeals court because he had been granted immunity for his testimony before Congress about the case.
--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
|
jonas
member
Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 499
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
|
 Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1075359 - 11/21/02 10:43 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I heard about this. Big Brother has gone way too far ... Where will we draw the line? I'm just wondering if our gov't has ever heard of something called The Constitution maybe? Whatever, they could do whatever they wanted and we cant do shit to stop em. They are strong, we are weak. Although, the underdog has done many great things when united and focused ... Ponder that a moment.
|
Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: jonas]
#1075369 - 11/21/02 10:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
We still have the right to bear arms... If these things get too out of hand we can still vote from the roof tops...
--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
|
Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1075392 - 11/21/02 10:53 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
We need to write and call our reps immediatly about this. We need to know we won't tolerate this.
--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
|
GoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK
Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1075398 - 11/21/02 10:55 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The problem isn't so much that the Government is getting out of control, it's that the American people are supportive of these efforts. I've written countless letters to Congress voicing my concern, yet polls show that the majority of Americans support these new "counter-terrorism" policies.
It's the American people that need to change their attitude. If they don't, I guess Big Brother takes over. People (at least a majority of them) seem to be willing to ignore the Constitution in today's climate. 
--------------------
 Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
|
MsPacMan
Stranger
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,054
Loc: Florida, USA
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: GoBlue!]
#1075474 - 11/21/02 11:34 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
not only can they monitor every purchase, they can monitor any e-mail, phone conversation, voicemail, internet history, travel record, bank account, credit card purchase; anything they want to, without a warrant or even a reason to. This is all because of the homeland security bullshit.
|
Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 1 hour, 13 minutes
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1076006 - 11/22/02 05:26 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
If you're not afraid enough for your own life to allow yourself to be protected this way then please...
THINK OF THE COWARDS !!!
--------------------
This space for rent
|
BowlKiller
----
Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 757
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1076458 - 11/22/02 09:38 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I dont see why any sane person think that an information dragnet is going to be any more protective than the information dragnet already in place. American people are susceptible to this kind of thinking in the same way the Germans were susceptible to Hitlers views. They thought he was trying to help the country, and he was and he did, but they didnt take things to the final conclusion that dude was trying to go off on the earth. But oh well same thing here really with USA homeland security bullshit. More like homeland prison. I think people just either forget or dont consider how these types of situations get started. I mean on the one hand sure I can see how we need protection and all that to live a good american life, but you really have to ask, what kind of life will I be living? I mean to be quite honest I would rather fight terrorism, than fight a terrorist who is terrorizing me in order to fight another terrorist, who really mainly exists because of the first terrorist.
I always like to include that its ok, its only going to get worse. Eventually you will see somekind of computer generated image weather it be robotics and computers combined or just something generated that will be given a voice, that is it will be given authority and the ability to command actions that will weigh heavily on people, even to death. Then you will know as you already do that its not going to be too long. Dont worry this system is going to collapse. What system, the whole of government around the world.
Not to be morbid, its just a fact.
--------------------
----
|
 Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1076502 - 11/22/02 10:11 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Get rid of this, fight the damn Patriot act..... Then you can feel better.
Anyone who likes these types of actions that government says is doing to protect its citizens should laugh. Look at Israel, they do phone taps anytime they feel like it, go into any home for no good reason, etc....
They can't stop terrorism completely, neither can the US or any country.. Taking away your rights and privacy is certainly not a solution..
Bush is taking advantage of the fear of the american people.. He's a dirty man!
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1076533 - 11/22/02 10:21 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Wierd. Last week you were thanking the lord that the republicans now had total control of congress. With republican control there'll be no problem whatsoever passing the legislation to bring this into effect.
I knew it would all end in tears.
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
Buddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/22/00
Posts: 532
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Xlea321]
#1076615 - 11/22/02 10:50 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
All this will only become worse under Republican control. This is the doing of the conservatives, who Rail Gun and Invertigo seem to be a big fan of. Well what do you think now?
|
Frog31337
Stranger
Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 779
Loc: Midwest, US
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: GoBlue!]
#1076682 - 11/22/02 11:17 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I have also written several letters to my reps letting them know my concern. The more people that I talk to the more I find that follow my ideas. Who are these people that think all these new measures are a GOOD thing? The few supporters I have found are lost in la la land and don't care one way or the other, but support Bush because he is the president.
|
jonas
member
Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 499
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: MsPacMan]
#1076902 - 11/22/02 12:48 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
This has nothing to do with "homeland security" at all. Big Brother tries to mask their dishonorable acts with a benevolent title. "Homeland security" is simply a term used to mask simply "spying on the american public". I think we all know why the want to spy on us, its very obvious. Its so they can compile lists of people to moniter, and its not for terrorism, thats for shit sure. These lists are much like those compiled at pro-pot rallies, they're used to unjustly persecute people for crimes they have not committed. If they really wanted to combat terrorism, they could do it just fine the way things are. Its not that they dont have enough information or proper ways of collecting information, its that they take everything lightly and brush off important things. We all know they knew about the 9/11 attacks prior to them actually occuring, they even admitted it. They just brushed it off when they heard it. We know that this "homeland security" bullshit is infact, bullshit. As some others said, we're going to need to fight back eventually. I'm not saying we take up arms and launch a fullscale rebellion, but, we must fight back in one way or another. Its very good that many of you write letters to reps and such, but we must change the minds of the ignorant, those who blindly follow the gov't in all their endevours. It is time that the people truely rule for and by the people ...
|
Larrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire
Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 11,004
Loc: further down the spiral
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1076909 - 11/22/02 12:50 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I am waiting for the morale monitors to show up.
--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth
Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Buddha5254]
#1076939 - 11/22/02 01:02 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
All this will only become worse under Republican control. This is the doing of the conservatives, who Rail Gun and Invertigo seem to be a big fan of. Well what do you think now?
It's all gone a little quiet. Seems like you hit a raw nerve...
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
TheHobbit
Pot Head Pixie
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 863
Loc: the Oily Way...
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Xlea321]
#1076964 - 11/22/02 01:19 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It's all so fuckin' bizarre, I really can't understand why the fuck anyone cares what anyone else is doing in the privacy of their own home anyway? Ralph Nader, help!!!! (You know, the guy the fucks wouldn't even debate because he simply knows too much about what they're really up too).
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Xlea321]
#1077119 - 11/22/02 02:28 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
So it would appear that you think conservatives must like EVERYTHING the government does?
I don't like this and I'd still vote the same and am still happy about the results of the last election. This doesn't mean that I'll praise every move a conservative government makes.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
Buddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/22/00
Posts: 532
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1077493 - 11/22/02 05:21 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Hey thanks for all of you that voted for the Republicans. NOw we have a lot to look forward to! I dont understand what is more important, our rights, or the other bullshit reasons that caused you to vote Republican. So Invert, RailGun, where you at? Let's give a round of applause to all who voted Republican! Yea!
|
frogsheath
Stranger
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 915
Loc: Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by cit [Re: Buddha5254]
#1077515 - 11/22/02 05:32 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, things are changing fast. The police state is moving in.
|
EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1077585 - 11/22/02 06:05 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
This is something that has even conservatives spooked. Here's a recent NY Times editorial from William Safire:
November 14, 2002
You Are a Suspect
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
ASHINGTON — If the Homeland Security Act is not amended before passage, here is what will happen to you:
Every purchase you make with a credit card, every magazine subscription you buy and medical prescription you fill, every Web site you visit and e-mail you send or receive, every academic grade you receive, every bank deposit you make, every trip you book and every event you attend — all these transactions and communications will go into what the Defense Department describes as "a virtual, centralized grand database."
To this computerized dossier on your private life from commercial sources, add every piece of information that government has about you — passport application, driver's license and bridge toll records, judicial and divorce records, complaints from nosy neighbors to the F.B.I., your lifetime paper trail plus the latest hidden camera surveillance — and you have the supersnoop's dream: a "Total Information Awareness" about every U.S. citizen.
This is not some far-out Orwellian scenario. It is what will happen to your personal freedom in the next few weeks if John Poindexter gets the unprecedented power he seeks.
Remember Poindexter? Brilliant man, first in his class at the Naval Academy, later earned a doctorate in physics, rose to national security adviser under President Ronald Reagan. He had this brilliant idea of secretly selling missiles to Iran to pay ransom for hostages, and with the illicit proceeds to illegally support contras in Nicaragua.
A jury convicted Poindexter in 1990 on five felony counts of misleading Congress and making false statements, but an appeals court overturned the verdict because Congress had given him immunity for his testimony. He famously asserted, "The buck stops here," arguing that the White House staff, and not the president, was responsible for fateful decisions that might prove embarrassing.
This ring-knocking master of deceit is back again with a plan even more scandalous than Iran-contra. He heads the "Information Awareness Office" in the otherwise excellent Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which spawned the Internet and stealth aircraft technology. Poindexter is now realizing his 20-year dream: getting the "data-mining" power to snoop on every public and private act of every American.
Even the hastily passed U.S.A. Patriot Act, which widened the scope of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and weakened 15 privacy laws, raised requirements for the government to report secret eavesdropping to Congress and the courts. But Poindexter's assault on individual privacy rides roughshod over such oversight.
He is determined to break down the wall between commercial snooping and secret government intrusion. The disgraced admiral dismisses such necessary differentiation as bureaucratic "stovepiping." And he has been given a $200 million budget to create computer dossiers on 300 million Americans.
When George W. Bush was running for president, he stood foursquare in defense of each person's medical, financial and communications privacy. But Poindexter, whose contempt for the restraints of oversight drew the Reagan administration into its most serious blunder, is still operating on the presumption that on such a sweeping theft of privacy rights, the buck ends with him and not with the president.
This time, however, he has been seizing power in the open. In the past week John Markoff of The Times, followed by Robert O'Harrow of The Washington Post, have revealed the extent of Poindexter's operation, but editorialists have not grasped its undermining of the Freedom of Information Act.
Political awareness can overcome "Total Information Awareness," the combined force of commercial and government snooping. In a similar overreach, Attorney General Ashcroft tried his Terrorism Information and Prevention System (TIPS), but public outrage at the use of gossips and postal workers as snoops caused the House to shoot it down. The Senate should now do the same to this other exploitation of fear.
The Latin motto over Poindexter"s new Pentagon office reads "Scientia Est Potentia" — "knowledge is power." Exactly: the government's infinite knowledge about you is its power over you. "We're just as concerned as the next person with protecting privacy," this brilliant mind blandly assured The Post. A jury found he spoke falsely before.
|
EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1077611 - 11/22/02 06:17 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
RailGun writes:
"We still have the right to bear arms... If these things get too out of hand we can still vote from the roof tops... "
Instead of getting into an unwinnable firefight with the feds (who have SWAT teams and tanks and Apache attack helicopters, don't forget) I'm planning to do the smart thing. I'm making plans to leave the country. If Bush gets re-elected in 2004 I'll be ready to go in a flash. The smart people didn't wait until 1939 to get out of Germany.
Things are just going to get worse. I was just reading an article about how the US aviation industry has NO PROTECTION WHATSOEVER from hand-held, surface-to-air infrared missiles (of the Stinger variety). It's only a matter of time before a terrorist group gets their hands on some (hell, thousands are already missing from military stockpiles) and start shooting the airliners out of the sky like clay pigeons. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Here's an excerpt from the article:
"The air industry's worst nightmare
Just days ago, national security executives met secretly with airline CEOs to warn them that al-Qaida may be planning to fire shoulder-launched missiles at commercial jets in the U.S. There's virtually no defense.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Paul J. Caffera
Nov. 22, 2002 | The war on terror took an unsettling turn last week with the resurfacing of Osama bin Laden and the FBI's announcement that al-Qaida is planning "spectacular attacks ... [with] high symbolic value, mass casualties, severe damage to the U.S. economy, and maximum psychological trauma." The FBI identified the U.S. aviation industry as a prime target for al-Qaida, and although critics have complained the bulletin was vague, Salon has learned that in the days before it was issued, national security executives met secretly with top airline officials to discuss the risk that high-tech portable missiles might be used against commercial jets.
According to sources who attended it, the meeting was convened by the year-old Transportation Security Administration on the afternoon of Election Day, Nov. 5. It included Adm. James Loy, chief of the agency; President Bush's secretary of transportation, Norman Mineta; representatives of the Office of Homeland Security; and a group of 25 airline CEOs. Gathered in a secure conference room in the Department of Transportation Building in Washington, they heard evidence of the growing and intractable threat that shoulder-fired infrared-homing missiles pose to crowded commercial jets taking off and landing at U.S. airports.
Sources within the White House Office of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told Salon the conference was prompted in part by a recent Senior Executive Intelligence Brief prepared by the CIA, which alerted top Bush administration officials and selected military leaders that terrorists have likely smuggled shoulder-launched missiles into the United States in recent months.
The news was ominous for the millions of people who fly on American jets each year: Every commercial flight is susceptible to an attack from terrorists armed with launchers that are small, relatively easy to obtain and surgically accurate. And even after a decade of research at the federal Aviation Research Laboratory in New Jersey, neither the government nor the aviation industry can do much to mitigate the danger.
Gary Stubblefield, who heads the security firm Vantage Systems in Scottsdale, Ariz., describes the shoulder-fired missiles as "aviation's dirty little secret." Todd Curtis, the creator of AirSafe.com and a former Air Force officer and Boeing safety analyst, adds this caution: If a "dedicated person wanted to shoot down a plane, there's nothing to stop them."
The weapons "are a serious threat, [and] not enough is being done to deal with it," retired Adm. Thomas Moorer, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for President Reagan, told Salon in an interview. "It's a simple thing to do. Airplanes have a schedule. They are at the same spot every day, [and] it's simple to fire [a shoulder-launched missile] from a boat or big truck."
Intelligence and security officials have long known of the danger posed by these missiles, but alarms began to sound after the recent discovery of al-Qaida training videos instructing terrorists how to fire the portable antiaircraft missiles and the capture of thousands of such missiles in al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan. "
The government will surely use such attacks as a further pretext to strip us completely of our civil liberaties (even though doing so won't do anything to stop the terrorists)
I would also suggest that Shroomery users (those living in the US, that is) discontinue visiting the site from your home computers as soon as you can. Go to a library or internet cafe or something
|
Buddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/22/00
Posts: 532
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: EchoVortex]
#1078118 - 11/22/02 09:36 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Echo, that totally freaks me out, didnt all that shit pass the house and senate? I guess prez is just going to save it and sign it right before teh State of the Union.
|
Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Xlea321]
#1078124 - 11/22/02 09:40 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
In reply to:
Wierd. Last week you were thanking the lord that the republicans now had total control of congress. With republican control there'll be no problem whatsoever passing the legislation to bring this into effect.
I knew it would all end in tears.
Most scholars I've read believe that the infringements would be far worse under liberal control. Especially if they would have had control directloy after 9-11.
In reply to:
All this will only become worse under Republican control. This is the doing of the conservatives, who Rail Gun and Invertigo seem to be a big fan of. Well what do you think now?
It's all gone a little quiet. Seems like you hit a raw nerve...
Some of us have jobs instead of living off the public dole. This is the first I've checked back to the shroomery since I got home from work at 11:30 EST. Get a life or a job, bumb.
--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
|
Buddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/22/00
Posts: 532
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1078492 - 11/23/02 12:55 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Ummm, I have a job, and I go to school. That was a really bad assumption to make. So what "scholars" have you been reading? Jerry Fallwell? Billy Graham?
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1078566 - 11/23/02 01:34 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Most scholars I've read believe that the infringements would be far worse under liberal control.
They wouldn't be right-wing "scholars" would they rail? Think about it.
Some of us have jobs instead of living off the public dole
I do ok rail. Don't worry about what i earn. It'll only make you feel bad that a "liberal" is out-earning you by at least 5 or 6 times.
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: EchoVortex]
#1080902 - 11/24/02 01:38 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks for alerting us of the upcoming disaster.
This police state has been a long time in the making and it started, lately, with the Republican President Abraham Lincoln creating the United States out of the Union.
At the moment we are caught between the Socialist/Communist/Democrats and the Facist/Totalitarian/Republicans. Not a pretty picture, is it?
And where will you go?
Better still, where will you go when the world turns into the police state as the globalists want?
The likelihood is that mankind is about to enter a very dark time.
God help us all.
|
JiminiCricket
member
Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 116
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ]
#1080974 - 11/24/02 01:56 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
In reply to:
Better still, where will you go when the world turns into the police state as the globalists want?
Heaven. I suspect the rapture will occur closely around that point where the one world gov and anti-christ takes over.
In reply to:
The likelihood is that mankind is about to enter a very dark time.
God help us all.
He will help you if you ask Him.
--------------------
Molon Labe!
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: JiminiCricket]
#1080985 - 11/24/02 02:00 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Um, what's a rapture?
|
vkk_
DNA Timebomb
Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 1,289
Loc: Planet Erf, Yo.
|
 Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ]
#1081008 - 11/24/02 02:07 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
I remember, the first time, I... smoked DMT.
|
PoetFirst
The Risen
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 69
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
|
 Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: EchoVortex]
#1081026 - 11/24/02 02:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Your job will now be to serve the computer with your brother troubleshooters. Beware though, traitors are everywhere. Everyone around you is guilty. Be alert. Know your enemies and your friends. Report any treasonous information to the computer. Failure to do so is treason.
Some of your companions may serve the computer. Some will assist the communists by being members of secret societies or possessing unregistered mutant powers. Communists are everywhere. The enemy is everywhere.Trust no one.
You will be assigned a standard Red clearance laser pistol, a multicorder, and new experimental equipment from research and development. Give thanks for the computers bountiful generosity. Preserve this equipment, and take care of it. Only communists would be careless with the computers resources.
Your missions might take you to unfamiliar sections of the Alpha complex. Your mission might take you to strange new worlds. It might even take you to the outside. Be prepared! Know the enemy! Guard against treason. Serve only the computer. The computer is your friend.
Stay alert. Trust no one. Keep a laser handy.
--------------------
Stay alert. Trust no one. Keep a laser handy.
Life is suffering. The origin of suffering is egoistic craving and attachment. There is a way to the cessation of suffering. This Way is the Eightfold Path:.
|
JiminiCricket
member
Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 116
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ]
#1081072 - 11/24/02 02:44 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It's when God snatches up His people. Basically I get to go straight to heaven while the world sufferers and goes to hell on earth.
--------------------
Molon Labe!
|
Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!
Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Thor]
#1081144 - 11/24/02 03:54 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
RE: "Get rid of this, fight the damn Patriot act..... Then you can feel better."
LOL:
(Most agree)
--------------------
>>Jammer>>
|
Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!
Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
|
 Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1081179 - 11/24/02 04:38 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
RE: "The Pentagon is constructing a computer system that could create a vast electronic dragnet, searching for personal information as part of the hunt for terrorists around the globe... including the United States."
ONE QUESTION:
DUU?
--------------------
>>Jammer>>
Edited by Jammer (11/24/02 04:42 AM)
|
EchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by cit [Re: ]
#1084540 - 11/25/02 01:56 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
"And where will you go?
Better still, where will you go when the world turns into the police state as the globalists want?
The likelihood is that mankind is about to enter a very dark time."
You're quite right to suggest that the world is entering a dark time and that there will probably be nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.
In the meantime, however, there are a number of countries where:
A) One can enjoy greater civil liberties than in the US (unless you consider owning a firearm to be the central and most important 'civil liberty')
B) One's tax dollars are not being spent to fund the single largest (though by no means the only) engine of global disruption: the United States government--US foreign policy and the US military.
Here are a few of the countries that fit the bill:
Norway, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Canada, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Japan.
I'm sure I've left out quite a few. Of course, I will be taxed more heavily in any of these places than I currently am in the US, but I personally consider it a small price to pay not to have to live in the midst of bloodthirsty "patriots" who engineer wars for political gain and who are basically planting the seeds of this country's eventual collapse. It is a question of WHEN, not IF, a terrorist organization is going to get its hands on a nuclear device and detonate it in a major US city (probably NYC, where I live, because it has the greatest population density). It may happen in twenty years, it may happen in two, but it will happen eventually. The political and economic turmoil such an event will cause will break the country's back. Even if it doesn't, the US will overnight be turned into one of the world's shittiest places in which to live: martial law, death, disorder, etc.
In any event, I'll take social democracy over fascist totalitarianism any day. Of course the turmoil that follows on the heels of the US's collapse will engulf the entire world. But at least the rest of the world will draw the correct lessons from the US's experience: hubris breeds nemesis. No matter what happens the US will never learn this lesson: it will simply answer nemesis with more hubris. People like George W. can't even spell or define 'hubris', much less understand this eternal law of the human condition.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by cit [Re: EchoVortex]
#1084578 - 11/25/02 02:07 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Thank you Echo for that thoughtful reply. Many people agree with you, myself included.
The way things are going we are in for a rough go. However, I think that might turn into a global situation. In which case we will have no place to run or hide. I sincerely hope that is not the case.
Cheers,
|
Grav
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by cit [Re: ]
#1085247 - 11/25/02 06:34 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
This is fucked up. I've never felt so actually violated.
Everyone should go read a history book, eat some mushrooms, and fucking REALIZE.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by cit [Re: Grav]
#1085265 - 11/25/02 06:39 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Dear Grav,
Most people are not good at realizing. They actually like playing follow the leader.
Look where it has got us.
I feel ya Bro
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1085916 - 11/25/02 10:07 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
EVERYONES INFO WILL BE GATHERED. This includes all politicians and police!!!!!
If they use it against you, you will be able to use it against them.
When they come take me away for doing things NOT RELATED to Terrorism, I will be worried. Until then, it is only FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: GoBlue!]
#1085933 - 11/25/02 10:10 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The constitution protects you from them MISUSING the info, not from gathering it. REMEMBER their info will be gathered as well.
|
Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ]
#1086008 - 11/25/02 10:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The constitution is void where prohibited by law. Politicians pay lip service to it, but use it as a door mat to wipe their feet on upon entering office.
--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
|
Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!
Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
|
 Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Evolving]
#1086254 - 11/25/02 11:49 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
RE: "The constitution is void where prohibited by law"
LMAO!!!
Man, Im surprized that a politician hasnt thought of this one yet!!
--------------------
>>Jammer>>
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Evolving]
#1086283 - 11/26/02 12:10 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It sure is. But Judges decide what laws are constitutional, and their INFO will be gathered as well.
Think of it as a BROAD search warrant for Terrorists. For any other behavior, unless it is completely out in the open, it has no power against you. My only concern for this type of gathering system would be CRIMINALS breaking into it and using it against you. But they already can get to all this information if they WANT it REAL bad.
Personally I don't FEAR the government that grants me Freedom from the Tyrrany my Remaining ancestors fled. Think of the power the government has, think of what they could DO, if they were up to no good. Who could really stop them from just knocking on every door, coming in, and arresting you for whatever they wanted to. THEY RESPECT THEIR OWN FREEDOM AS MUCH AS YOU DO. After reading the majority of posts in this forum, I would say they respect it more then most here do.
Why would'nt they just do a head count. A door to door search at gun point would be FAR more EFFECTIVE then collecting information and storing it in a computer. Why? Because they actually DO RESPECT FREEDOM.
|
psyphon
mneumatic device
Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 565
|
 Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Jammer]
#1086289 - 11/26/02 12:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Go to the ACLU NOW. Let your voice be heard. You don't even have to get off of your butt to take action. Sure they want your name and address, but would you rather tell the government your name and address for the millionth time (they know it already). Or would you rather they know virtually everything about you, profile you, and statistically predict what you are about to do next. It seems that pretty soon after implementing this system they'd be able to charge you for a crime you haven't even commited yet, just because 1000 people with the same profile as you committed that crime.
I suggest we start pooling resources NOW to start the process of colonizing mars. And BE READY to "vote from the rooftops".
Perhaps these sound like the thoughts of someone not quite so right in the head. Well, I think its best to have these thoughts while they're still legal.
--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust
I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.
|
YouInfoIt
see you in hell
Registered: 10/26/01
Posts: 187
Loc: bc, canada
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: EchoVortex]
#1092817 - 11/27/02 11:57 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
quote --If Bush gets re-elected in 2004 I'll be ready to go in a flash. The smart people didn't wait until 1939 to get out of Germany.--
good call, run for your lives!! but where is there to go? the EU, are they gonna be the saviours of humanity. i fear not. where are the damn aliens when ya need em?
|
johnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: YouInfoIt]
#1094704 - 11/28/02 08:41 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Ill leave this country ONLY in fear of my goverment, NOT some crazy arab!!!!!
HMMmm,... lets see i predict bush will still be in office past 2004, NOT due to re-election.
--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!
|
ribbit
up till dawn
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 290
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
|
 Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: johnnyfive]
#1098922 - 11/30/02 05:04 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
true dat,
i believe the gov't cares more about if your not paying all your taxes rather than if other counties threaten our very existance...
i know where to go, and thats canada.
canada rules!
|
Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ]
#1099000 - 11/30/02 05:55 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
If they use it against you, you will be able to use it against them.
I don't think civilians will have access to this information.
This monitorization is one of the BIGGEST infringement of rights! The U.S. citizens are pretty fucking stupid for supporting this too- I'm sure most of the stuff the government finds isn't going to be for fighting terrorism, I'll give you that much. This is so typical for it to be okay now as opposed to before 9-11. People should open their eyes and...yeah- REALIZE!
 
--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
|
Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: johnnyfive]
#1099005 - 11/30/02 05:57 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Ill leave this country ONLY in fear of my goverment, NOT some crazy arab!!!!!
Amen my brotha.
--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
|
ribbit
up till dawn
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 290
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Murex]
#1099025 - 11/30/02 06:08 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
you know what would be fucked up, if 9-11 (rest their souls) was a conspiracy to push this through. you know if there wasn't all this terror talk, that there would be know way people would see it as being a good thing... its like a big brainwashing scam...
probably not, but just a thought
|
johnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ribbit]
#1099868 - 12/01/02 12:06 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
ya know the funny thing is the media, potrays bush as an idiot, and i think bush probibly likes that cause look at the way he acts. I've seen some pics of him doing stupid things, he could be doing all of the stupid things on purpose. I really think bush is accually one of the most smartest individuals there are.
What was once thought of as conspiracy or radicalizm, is now becoming outright conspiracy!
--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!
|
Grav
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ]
#1099990 - 12/01/02 01:00 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Why would'nt they just do a head count. A door to door search at gun point would be FAR more EFFECTIVE then collecting information and storing it in a computer. Why? Because they actually DO RESPECT FREEDOM.
Hrmm... Think about it, Teonan
The government needs the people's support. If they did something as openly drastic as that, there might be a tiny bit of a nationwide uproar. That's why they gotta do it all subtle and sneaky-like under the guise of protecting the American people from terrorists. They gotta keep people on their side.
If you think what you said is proof that our government respects freedom, i think youre horribly misinformed.
Fuck smiley glad-hands with hidden agendas.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Murex]
#1100321 - 12/01/02 02:56 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I already have access to all the info they can gather on me. I know exactly what I have done, and will do.
What I am saying is If EVERYONES INFO CAN BE GATHERED then everyone's INFO will be in there. So whom ever you think is USING IT for wrong doing, will be able to use it aginst JUDGES, POLICE, everyone in a position of authority over you.
That is why, the spying powers ARE LIMITED to certain types of Activities of people that are already suspected of the CRIMES they are investigating.
Do you think the people that signed it into law would allow their own phones to be taped, without a search warrant, or judges would allow it to be used as evidence to convict themselves. It really just LIGHTENS the restrictions for evidence gathering on SPECIFIC TYPES OF CRIMES.
As far as DRUG laws go, those restrictions have already been lightened, long before 9-11.
|
Grav
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ]
#1100576 - 12/01/02 09:57 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I think drug laws were lightened because it became too obvious how bullshit they were.
The government is playing a game of divide and conquer.
Now that they will have extended information on every citizen it's gonna be alot easier for them.
|
Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Grav]
#1101862 - 12/01/02 08:21 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
They should also have cameras in our bathrooms and bedrooms, so they can watch us pee and have sex with our wives!
--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Grav]
#1105015 - 12/02/02 06:54 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The info gathering and Use of info is still bound by constituional protections. It just lightened them for certain types of crimes, that EVERYONE agrees are worth prosectuing.
Drug laws havent' been lightened really. I was stating that the restrictions to enforcing them have already been lightened prior to 9-11.
I don't like this Act either, I just don't fear it yet.
I also KNOW that the Government is the people of the USA. ALL of it's actions are a result of People making them happen. People that are citizens of the USA. Free citizens.
|
Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: Jammer]
#1106150 - 12/03/02 01:29 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
|
johnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
|
Re: Pentagon to moniter every purchase made by citizen [Re: ]
#1143180 - 12/15/02 11:57 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
In reply to:
As far as DRUG laws go, those restrictions have already been lightened, long before 9-11.
Your getting ready to see a new evil face on the drug war. Your getting ready to see genocide, on drug users!!!!!!!!
--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
Learyfan
1 2 3 all )
usefulidiot
Revelation
HagbardCeline
Zahid
lonestar2004
CJay
carbonhoots