|
 Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
 Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
 Cubes vs Pans...? 
#1437019 - 04/07/03 05:52 PM (21 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
My friend requested some enlightenment from people who have actually experienced cubes vs pans.....not in cultivation, but in the experience.
She knows pans are considerably more potent by weight.
She heard pans have no nausea factor, so would like to know if that is true.....
But beyond that, if it's possible to characterize the difference in experience with some understandable truly descriptive terms (as much as possible !!!), please do...Hoping for a "McKenna-like" response on this one, from knowledgeable Shroomerites.....thanks
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1440309 - 04/08/03 06:23 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
bump....
can anyone answer?
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1440313 - 04/08/03 06:25 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
There is no qualitive difference.
Psilocybin is psilocybin is psilocybin..
There may be less nausea, I wouldnt know about that. Would make sense considering you have to eat less material to trip.
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: ]
#1440397 - 04/08/03 06:50 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Immaculate, Thanks.....I appreciate the response.....
I thought I had read somebody describing it as a "cleaner" trip with pans....but it seems like you are saying that enough quantity of cubes will give you an exact equivalent experience to pans, as long as the total psilocybin is the same.
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
 mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1440485 - 04/08/03 07:21 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Every single shroom has a different propotion of chemicals in them and area from area, flush from flush is entirely differnet that the last. Shrooms on one side of hte street can be twice as potent as shrooms groing icross the street. Only by a pound or ounce weight can you quantifiy a dose.
mj
3 to five dried grams of cubies or one to two dried grams of Cope/
And then again there woiuld be varying amounts between those doses.
Stijve's Paper on Panaeolus cyanescens is posted here in the Shroomery. He found that Copes from Hawaii were high in psilocybnine while Copres from Australia contained more psilocine than psilocybine.
The Copes can also gag ones throat at times becasue of their stringy grainlike flavor.
mj
Edited by mjshroomer (04/08/03 07:22 PM)
|
mesq
Psychonaut
Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 284
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1440511 - 04/08/03 07:25 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Not to mention the high urea content of Panaeolus... 
My favourite mushrooms are Panaeolus cyanescens... probably cos I have worked with them alot more than others...
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1440540 - 04/08/03 07:34 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
MJ
Thanks....I was kind of hoping you would also reply to this, due to your wide experience. So then, recognizing that lots of factors can cause potency variations, and that pans contain more psilocybin by weight....
Am I correct that you don't feel there is generally any "qualitative" difference between cubes and pans, perhaps caused by any trace chemical that is in pans but not in cubes....so, like Immaculate said above....psilocybin is psilocybin ?
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mesq]
#1440546 - 04/08/03 07:36 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Mesq
I had not heard of the high urea content.....if you are not just kidding, is this good, bad, or indifferent ?
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
mesq
Psychonaut
Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 284
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1441225 - 04/08/03 11:03 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
There is a link that MJ posted showing the chemical differences between various strains of Panaeolus cyanescens.... yes they do have Urea just have a look...
I think different kinds of trips depends on a lot of variables.. body chemistry, set/setting/ and Mushroom chemistry + many more...
Like MJ was hinting at.. one patch of mushrooms will have a different chemical make up from on down the pasture... all very similar but still slightly different..
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1441372 - 04/08/03 11:41 PM (21 years, 13 days ago) |
|
|
I found a very noticeable difference between p.mexicana sclerotica and P.Cubes. The mexicana had a far greater hangover period - fuzzy head and headaches and intefering with your sleep. My guess is there will be a noticeable difference between cubes and pans, hopefully because the pans are more potent you will be able to eat less, which may imply there'll be less of a hangover?
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1445730 - 04/10/03 04:20 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Undoudtedly the qualitive experiences yielded by panaeolus species tend to have their own unique characteristics that are determined not only by their increased contents of psilocybin psilocin, but also the presense of a variety of tryptophan related alkaloids not normally present at anywhere near these concentrations in other measured psilocybes.
So yes they are different because rthey have unique alkaloids - even serotonin has been reportedly found in panaeolus species.
--------------------
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
|
Bluemeanie,
Thanks.... one would think that the presence of additional psychoactive alkaloids certainly must influence the qualitative nature of the experience. But, recognizing up front that mere words can never adequately describe the indescribable, and certainly cannot substitute for direct experience ....in spite of that, if there is any possible way to characterize that additional influence in mundane terms, such as "cleaner", "more colorful", "more cerebral", etc.....please do so.....am just trying to get some concept of it, or "feel" for it.
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1445876 - 04/10/03 07:15 AM (21 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
The presense of the other tryuptamines in the shrooms have nothing to do witht he overall content of the psilocine/psilocybine of the shrooms, except baeocystine and/or possibly nor-baeocystine. The other tryptamine alkaloids are not psychoactive and do not affect the high or the quality of the high. I only bring this up because i have been fortunate to try baeocystine and also chemical psilocine and psilocybine.
Yes there are many tryptamines found in Panaeolus species which are not commoninthe Psilocybe genera.
However, Hundreds of other species of shrooms also have trace elements of tryptanmines in them also.
I could provide a worldwide partial list of plants and shrooms with serotonine and tryptophan and other compounds related to psilocine and psilocybine but they are not psychoactive even when eaten in combination with psilocine and/or psilocybine.
mj
|
Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1447772 - 04/10/03 06:56 PM (21 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
'The presense of the other tryuptamines in the shrooms have nothing to do witht he overall content of the psilocine/psilocybine of the shrooms, except baeocystine and/or possibly nor-baeocystine. The other tryptamine alkaloids are not psychoactive and do not affect the high or the quality of the high. I only bring this up because i have been fortunate to try baeocystine and also chemical psilocine and psilocybine.'
Sure if you could demonstrate to me how alkaloids with compositions similar to psilocybin and psilocin are somehow 'not active' with some scientific information Id very much appreciate it MJ. The statement that tryptophan convert alkaloids other than psilocybin/psilocin are not active when they, like Psilocybin have chemical structures similar to serotinon and are all representation of the same tryptophan precursors in the substrate seems a little redudant to me without some factual evidence.
Sure i can concede that many of these alkaloids are found in minute levels, but not all of them - unconverted L-tryptophan as an example can be found in some psilocybes at very high levels and qualitive bioassays of Ps.Weilli demonstrate that it has a significant affect on the intoxication.
--------------------
Edited by Zen Peddler (04/10/03 06:57 PM)
|
diggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 21 years, 18 hours
|
|
A better question is how you believe L-Tryptophan is active. It is an amino acid and can be found in a variety of foods. Turkey is a good example of one of those. We certainly do not see people getting high off turkey. Also L-Tryptophan in high doses has been related to Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome ? EMS, a deadly flu like condition. Some of the tryptophans will not pass the blood brain barrier and are relatively useless.
--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."
Maynard James Keenan, Tool
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
|
Trytophan is used to treat people who have sleeping disorders and to calm people down. IT is found in Turkey and in warm milk. When you are a child parents give you warm milk (imitation mothers warm breast milk) to help you go to sleep better at night.
Also recent studies show that most accidents at Christmans and Thanksgiving occur from people who actually fell asleep after having a turkey dinner rather than from alcohol intoxication.
It relaxes you.
mj but it does not get one high in any way.
mj
|
Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1449056 - 04/11/03 07:47 AM (21 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
And again i didnt say that tryptophan itself was active. I stated that the alkaloids that mushrooms convert from tryptophan precursors are many and varied and that you would find that some of these alkaloids ranged more in structure than DMT and Psilocybin does - and Bioassay of MAOI DMT is so significantly different from psilocin bioassay that my contention is sound.
--------------------
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
|
The physical hig of DMT is the same physical fellings onbtained when on a strong dose of shrooms. That was just an observation I was making.
I still think that there is no DMT in the shrooms and that maybe it was a false positve. There is only one paper I believe which reported DMT in shrooms.
Of course Law enforcement always make the statement that Shrooms are similar to LSD and Peyote (mescaline).
While it is true that they are indoles, although mescaline is also a phenyletylamine, the only similarity between thte three drugs is that they work onthe same part of the brain, in the serotonine receptors.
Anyway. Good post so far and cool we hav no flaming going on.
more imput please.
mj
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1451709 - 04/12/03 02:14 AM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Bluemeanie, and MJ.....as you requested MJ, MORE INPUT (sorry it's a bit long, but I'm trying to explain a point):
Although it?s possible to rationalize any negative psychedelic experience, and that is the natural thing to do, to make the ?best? of it?..I?m betting that the vast majority of psychonauts would prefer the positive experience. Sure, it?s cool to say you were mentally tough enough to survive a traumatic psychedelic ordeal, and maybe in some way it can make you stronger (if it doesn?t destroy a part of you) and we can ?learn? from it?..but wouldn?t most people rather have the positive trip ? (That is, aside from someone like an axe murderer or other mental deviant, who might actually enjoy visiting hell for a few hours, but I personally can?t relate to that). In Brave New World, Aldous Huxley fictionalized a perfect psychedelic with no negative effects, the ?soma? (and even that wasn?t totally perfect, since it carried a risk of addiction because people loved it so much). If we can agree on the assumption that a universal goal (except for truly unbalanced people who could WANT a bad trip) would be to experience the psychedelic that would always yield good trips (which of course are still allowed to be DELIGHTFULLY bizarre, because bizarre is good), then the task would be to identify that substance. Having had previous bioassay experience with Cubes, ?cid, and Mescaline, but not with Pans, my original question was to request experienced Shroomerite feedback on the experience that Pans deliver, having heard positive things about them.
When the posts turned toward the chemistry, I do find that interesting and very possibly revealing. Occasional Shroomery posts regarding the mitigation of the uncomfortable, tense, or even scary aspects of the Cube experience advise using Niacinamide, or 5-HTP to add a splash of seratonin, as smoothing or mitigating precursors to a Cube experience. Purists who prefer (or who even proselytize) the natural, the organic, the Maria Sabina type of approach, in deserved respect of the shamanistic origins of mushroom ceremonies, might ?dis? using such add-on substances as violating the pure experience. They may even consider this bordering on polydrugging (although these more natural add-ons are certainly not nearly as bad as truly synthetic and dangerous ?add-ons? like hydrocodone, etc. which IS polydrugging.) Ideally, the ?perfect soma? would stand alone, and not need any add-ons at all, would not generate any negative side effects that would influence people in that direction.
Which leads me back to the Cube/Pan debate. The additional chemistry found in Pans, even though it may not necessarily be psychotropic by absolute hard definition, and even if including L-Tryptophan which is found in a Turkey dinner and is a known relaxant, could actually favorably alter or shape the psychedelic experience, without resorting to dosing additional substances like 5-HTP to ?smooth? it. If a particular mushroom like a Pan, in contrast to other mushrooms, naturally contains such additional influential substances, one could hypothesize that a RELATIVELY FINER QUALITY TRIP might be produced by Pans?..even though psilocybin and psilocyn are still psilocybin and psilocyn, Cubes or Pans. So my initial question was really to find out if Pans were a bit closer to the ideal ?soma? than Cubes, in knowledgeable peoples? experience and opinion. Before somebody tells me to "just try it yourself and see?.?..isn?t asking such a question what these Boards are for? Besides, this chemistry thing is getting real damned interesting?.BRING IT ON !!!
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
Edited by Mike Elium (04/12/03 09:39 AM)
|
Hermes_br
~~~
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 546
|
 Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1451945 - 04/12/03 08:32 AM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
|
|
What you said reminded me a post by AIRDOG :
"and yes the mushies are friends and they are closely related, actually you can eat a lot of pan sphinctrinus along with psilocybian mushrooms and you will be feeling something similar but different.. hehehhe The best ones are the pies that have cubes an copes in them hjehehe"
AIRDOG's click
that may be possible, probably because of the presence of tryptophan, 5-hydroxytryptophan & others in Panaeolus sphinctrinus .
Edited by Hermes_br (04/12/03 08:43 AM)
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Hermes_br]
#1452696 - 04/12/03 02:05 PM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Hermes
Thanks for experiential link....Seems like the fact that AIRDOG noticed something "different", as emphasized, lends credence to the hypothesis that the comparison is not simply the relative amount or percentage of psilocybin/psilocyn / potency alone. It appears that he liked whatever this difference was, too, since he preferred the combination ('best ones...have cubes and copes").
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Hermes_br]
#1452765 - 04/12/03 02:43 PM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Panaeolus sphinctrinus is not a psychoactive species having been misidentified by Rolf Singer in the 1950s and later amended by him.
And you willnever see cubes and copes inthe saem manure piles. It does not happen. All though it is possible but unlikely.
mjshroomer
|
Hermes_br
~~~
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 546
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1452809 - 04/12/03 03:05 PM (21 years, 10 days ago) |
|
|
-> "Panaeolus sphinctrinus is not a psychoactive species having been misidentified by Rolf Singer in the 1950s and later amended by him."
i know that , but it might have tryptophan, 5-hydroxytryptophan and other tryptophan related alkaloids.(not psilocybine/psilocyne/baeocystine)
here's the pic from GGreatOne234
Edited by Hermes_br (04/12/03 03:08 PM)
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Hermes_br]
#1453372 - 04/12/03 06:57 PM (21 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
here is my photo of P. sphinctrinus.
of course it has tryptamines but nothing psychoactive.
hundreds of plants also have trytamines but that means diidily-squat as far as magic goes,
mjshroomer
Edited by mjshroomer (04/12/03 06:59 PM)
|
GGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
|
 Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1453428 - 04/12/03 07:15 PM (21 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Hey folks,
I prefer the Cubensis.
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1453485 - 04/12/03 07:36 PM (21 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
MJ
Don't you think these additional naturally occurring chemicals in Pans COULD affect the experience somehow, even though they themselves may not be psychotropic.... just in having some kind of somatic effect.....even as a calmative/ relaxant ? Just as if you took a capsule of 5-HTP or Nicacinamide before eating Cubensis? Other than potency, do Pans and Cubes seem exactly the same to you? I know in your earlier post you equated 2 gr Pans = 5 gr Cubes, but other than that, can you yourself notice NO other difference?
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1454472 - 04/13/03 09:31 AM (21 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
The copes seem to have a more speedier effect that cubes, but then that might just be me.
Psilocine and psilocybine are exactly what they are. The high can very but that depends on set and setting and expectations.
And again, there are different amohunts from batch to batch and from flush to flush. Where you are at, who you are with, and what you might do are all part of what makes a trip worth tripping.
mj
|
diggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 21 years, 18 hours
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1454478 - 04/13/03 09:38 AM (21 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
I agree, set and settign have more to do with your trip and how it developes than the miniscule amounts of the other various tryptamines. All of my trips have been off of cubensis, yet if I did not know the mushroom given to me I would have thought that I had received something other than a cubensis.
--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."
Maynard James Keenan, Tool
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1457842 - 04/14/03 05:38 PM (21 years, 7 days ago) |
|
|
MJ,
Thanks not only for your objective analysis, but also for your subjective bioassay evaluation. And of course I agree on the set & setting thing.
Diggitydankman,
I have no disagreement with your first statement, but I gotta admit I don't understand the second (sentence).
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
diggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 21 years, 18 hours
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1457864 - 04/14/03 05:49 PM (21 years, 7 days ago) |
|
|
If I was given the same dose of cubes, but in say a tea or chocolate not being able to see them, I would have trouble judging what mushrooms I had eaten due to the changes in setting and the variations that this alone has caused in my trips.
It is easy to say that different psilocybian mushrooms yield different trips, but how can the variances in minor tryptamines affect this? My conclusion is that it is all in the head. Start eating chocolates without being able to tell what mushroom is in there and then see if the trips are still different. I bet they will be and you would not be able to tell the difference as long as the chocolates had same apx. psilocybin levels.
--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."
Maynard James Keenan, Tool
|
Roger_irrelevant
War's boring,change thechannel!
Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 668
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
|
Quote:
If I was given the same dose of cubes, but in say a tea or chocolate not being able to see them, I would have trouble judging what mushrooms I had eaten due to the changes in setting and the variations that this alone has caused in my trips.
It is easy to say that different psilocybian mushrooms yield different trips, but how can the variances in minor tryptamines affect this? My conclusion is that it is all in the head. Start eating chocolates without being able to tell what mushroom is in there and then see if the trips are still different. I bet they will be and you would not be able to tell the difference as long as the chocolates had same apx. psilocybin levels.
You're probably right, but I have to agree with MJ about the speedy effects of pans. I know i'm not the only one who compares pans to acid. I've yet to have a trip of the "same" quality from cubies.
Even as I write this the logic of the quote above nags me. 
--------------------
We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams...
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
|
I drink chocolet milk with my shrooms. I do not mix theminto various foods. I also, like 99% of everyone who eats shrooms, wants to see the shrooms that they are eating. ANyone could put anything into a chocolate and tell you it is shrooms. Thrtee to five grams are very hard to put into a chocolate. Especially dried when that is a lot of powder.
Reminds me of people who think there is speed on blotter acid. These is no way to put enought meth on a little piece of paper acid to affect the trip. But the chocolaets are starting to pop up at parties and raves and this brings heat to the shrooms.
mj
The Aztecs served the shrooms with chocolet and /or honey.
But I tend to drink a pint with my shrooms which I take 20 to 30 minutes to eat, just like the Mazatecs do before a ceremony. A slow come-on to the high and your nervous suystem is not affected byt he fast onslaught of a tea, soup or smoothie, or even chocolet candy for that matter.
Thanks for sharing and have a shroomy day,
mj
|
Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1459554 - 04/15/03 05:41 AM (21 years, 7 days ago) |
|
|
I think set and setting have quite a bit to do with the experience, but that they are over-rated.
Anno, Roadkill, Hongus, and a host of other experienced with bioassay of a variety of species have all indicated in their posts and to me personally that they have noted consistant species-dependent differences in experiences. You have also indicated this MJ. I myself would suggest that the experience from Ps.Subaeruginosa, Ps.Eucalypta, Ps.Cubensis, Pan cyans and ps.Semilanceata are all notably different and consistant through at least 20 bioassays of each (other than semilanceata). I am well versed in the concepts of set and setting, and my experiences suggests that these concepts are adopted generally by those that lack these experiences. Or to oversimplify the issue.
It poor science to make an assumption that automatically the inclusion and presense of high levels of tryptophan related alkaloids have no affect on the bioassay experiences from these mushrooms.
The first point raised being that they are not in a significant quantity, when i have demonstrated that Gartz certainly did find significantly high amounts of tryptophan type alkaloids in Ps.Weilli.
The second point - demonstrated without any real evidence - is that tryptophans are not generally active. Sure i concede that many of these are not, but as they very molecularly similar to psilocybin and because psilocybin is a biological conversion of these alkaloids this cannot be ruled out that they may have some affect on the experience. And this is before i discuss the fluctuations of enzymes in these mushrooms that react with psilocybin during oxidisation.
Mj we tend to debate a lot - btw Ive got the DNA analysis of Subaeruginosa and allies coming in by friday (finally!)
--------------------
|
Mike Elium
.the Mycelium
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 245
Loc: on the edge
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
|
|
This post continues to be very informative, lots of input from very experienced Shroomerites as well as lots of analysis of the potential influences of the various chemistry in different species. (THANKS!)
One thing I noticed, both from specific posts plus a couple of PMs, is that some people consider Pans (relative to Cubes) to be "smoother", or have an easier transition into the experience, while others say Pans are "speedier". This is kind of interesting, since those 2 concepts - smoother vs speedier - would generally be considered to be somewhat opposites. It could be that this is just a matter of individual interpretation of that particular aspect of the experience.....or possibly a reflection of distinctly different effects of SOMETHING in the mushroom on different people (something besides psilocyn/psilocybin?)
--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
#1459789 - 04/15/03 08:59 AM (21 years, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Well Mike Elieum,
As for speedeier, that is one effect from mushrooms which has nothing to do with speed. AS I noted in anoterh post elsewhere that many who take LSD report a speedy effect. That is part of the high of LSD. It amazes me that peopple would suggest that ther was speed on window pane and speed in blotter acid. There is no way to get enough amphetamine on a single hit of acid or on a single window pane. That is just one of the effects of the shrooms.
When taken in the form of liwuids such as tea, soup or smoothines the comeone is very fast and short and can be compared with a spped rush since it is like a rocket taking off and that is very fast/.
IT is just one of the manty effects of mushrooms onthe himan bodyies nervous system.
Have a shroomy day
|
diggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 21 years, 18 hours
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1459875 - 04/15/03 10:04 AM (21 years, 7 days ago) |
|
|
I may suggest that pans have a speedier effect as it generally takes far fewer grams to reach the desired affect. With less content it can be assumed that the stomach can breakdown the mushrooms quicker and therefore the psilocin can be absorbed from the GI tract much quicker. This in itself will lead to a more overwhelming effect as larger doses of psilocin reach the brain quicker and the waves of coming up will be stronger.
Blue Meanie, I do not really think that every trytophan or tryptamine in psilocybian mushrooms has absolutely no effect on the body during the trip. I find it hard to believe that the varying levels can afffect a trip much. I would say almost a third of the alkaloids in shrooms will not be able to pass the blood brain barrier. (Psilocin normally would not be able to cross the blood brain barrier due to the hydroxide ion attached but is able to due to the internal bonding (same thing used to fend off MAO from oxidizing it) , Bufotenin which is the 5-hydroxy isomer of psilocin can not cross the blood brain barrier. DMT which does not have the prior stated internal bonding is quickly oxidized my MAO's (just showing how hard it is to make it to BBB let alone pass through)) I just do not understand that if only one-third to one quarter of the trptamines and/or trptophans we ingest are making it to the brain (at least a third-quarter lost from each MAO and the BBB) how are the other chemicals truly affecting the experience. We know that psilocin, (nor) baeocystin, and most amino acids from shrooms (L-tryptophan, etc.. which I may add have all undergone extensive testing up to the one to two gram mark without any hallucinogenic experiences) will pass the BBB. This does not leave many other alkaloids that could sway the experience. I have thouroughly enjoyed this conversation and have learned quite a bit myslef from it, thank you to all those who have participated.
--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."
Maynard James Keenan, Tool
Edited by diggitydankman (04/15/03 04:08 PM)
|
Hermes_br
~~~
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 546
|
|
Well folks,
the keyword here is SYNERGY ,bioassay(personal experience) and lack of cientific proof.
all those minute alkaloids may work in conjunction, do a google on 'Gramine' for instance.
although serotonine does not cross the blood-brain barrier it may affect the other body receptors when in synergy with the main alkaloids.
Bufotenine ,according to Jonathan Ott, CAN cross the b-b barrier when taken as a basified snuff.
5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) crosses the b-b barrier due to active transportation, that could occur to other alkaloids as well.
here's more info:
post on Mushroom Cultivation
and:
TITLE: Presence of phenylethylamine in hallucinogenic Psilocybe mushroom: possible role in adverse reactions.
AUTHORS: Beck O; Helander A; Karlson-Stiber C; Stephansson N
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Karolinska Hospital, Stockholm, Sweden.
SOURCE: J Anal Toxicol 1998 Jan-Feb;22(1):45-9
CITATION IDS: PMID: 9491968 UI: 98150932
ABSTRACT: The use of mushrooms containing the hallucinogenic substance psilocybin for intentional intoxication is relatively common. Occasionally, this results in adverse reactions with typical tachycardia that is not evidently caused by psilocybin. This study demonstrates the presence of phenylethylamine in the species Psilocybe semilanceata using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry and shows that the amount of this substance may vary much more than that of psilocybin. The highest amount of phenylethylamine (146 microg/g wet weight) was observed in mushrooms from a case of three young men hospitalized because of adverse reactions. Comparison of the symptoms observed in clinical cases of magic mushroom intoxication with those after intake of pure psilocybin or phenylethylamine suggests that phenylethylamine might have a role in the development of adverse reactions to Psilocybe mushroom intake.
thirdly: this discussion seems to be endless 
|
mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Hermes_br]
#1460187 - 04/15/03 12:04 PM (21 years, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Mnny of us do not agree with this report.l There is no speed in shrooms. And to bring up a point of interest it is like the FBI report in the Journal of Forensic Science which claims they analysed many batches of in vitro grown shrooms and found no psilocine/psilocybine in the mycelium.
Of course those who grow know that there is.
I believe that paper on the phenylethylamines was a false positive. Stijve and a few other people I know also examined shrooms for that and found no amphetamines in their research of such shrooms. They did not publish..
mj.
Maybe those kids were already speeding. I have the article somewhere but i discounted it a while back as a false positive.
mj
|
Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
|
Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
#1462951 - 04/16/03 03:53 AM (21 years, 6 days ago) |
|
|
The idea that Panaeolus species have a more 'speedy' biaossay due to their higher content in alkaloids is doesnt hold true.
Psilocybe Subearuginosa, Eucalypta, Semilanceata, etc all have alkaloid contents at significantly higher concentrations than Panaeolus species. Infact considerable intoxications of some regional varieties of Subaeruginosa can be had from the ingestion of around eight specimens.
You contention if sound should find us noting that these woodloving (or grass with Semilanceata) would have an even 'speedier' experience, and this certainly is not true.
Infact, unlike most coprophilous species, some woodlovers are found to produce significant physical affects (Azurescens and Eucalypta) that cause cramping of the leg muscles that i have never experienced with other psilocybes and the cause of this is yet to be accounted for.
I am quite aware of the blood brain barrier but my contention holds sound if these other present alkaloids are able to bond to apply synongy with those alkaloids that we are aware are able to cross the blood-brain barrier. The whole process is understudied and at the end of the day I know there are differences - and im sure anyone who has significant experience with these mushrooms would agree.
--------------------
|
diggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 21 years, 18 hours
|
|
I have never had experience with any woodloving species and will trust what you say as I was merely pondering the "what ifs" of this situation.
--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."
Maynard James Keenan, Tool
Edited by diggitydankman (04/16/03 03:26 PM)
|
Hermes_br
~~~
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 546
|
|
Good point, Bluemeanie.
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
Hoodz
MycoJunkie
Hamurabi
i8an8th
donvliet
nanananotehead
1 2 all )
shroomanic