|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Casing vs. Wax Paper (UPDATE:3/19 - Shocking Conclusions)
#9952832 - 03/11/09 04:42 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Just wanted to let my fellow community memebers be aware of a certain experiment im just starting to conduct if they were the least bit interested. Ive noticed many conversations of people going back and forth on casings and wax paper. Apperently they are supposed to be sort of the same...well, ive decided to test it, at least with my grows.
Ive got 7 deep lasagna tray subs and have also made sort of a monotub type thing, but not really mono tub because it doesnt have a top and it is sitting in my greenhouse alongside my other subs. 3 of 7 trays are cased with Jiffy Mix and the rest ive decided to use wax paper to create the microclimate. the monotub style tub is half cased and half has wax paper. Below are pics.
They are B+ and Brazilian multispore inoc into WBS. fully colonized then spawned to a mix of 90% hpoo and coir (50/50 in that 90%), 2% coffee grounds and 8% verm (something like that) The spawn run took 12 days and everything colonized at the same pace nice and beautiful (besides a couple spots of metabolites).
They were put in fruiting conditions on the 9th and wax paper added today (the 11th). The ones with a casing layer were cased at the point in which they were introduced to fruiting conditions.
The point for me to do this is to figure out for myself what works the best with my method. I hope you guys can take something away from this as well. If you guys have any q's please feel free.
UPDATE 3/17
So, the first signs of pins came yesterday, and strangely enough, the first ones came from a cased substrate. Just so you all know, my casing layer is between 1/4 and 1/2 inch thick. There were maybe 1 or 2 visible pins yesterday, and now this morning...a shit ton. The other subs have visible pins, kind of like this one had yesterday, so maybe they are just slightly behind each other. This sub is one of the Brazilians. And in my last few grows, the Brazilians have always pinned before the B+ anyways.
UPDADE 3/19
Ok, so unlike i thought, the cased substrates by far out performed the uncased subs. They pinned sooner, and are fruiting much much more than the uncased ones. The uncased subs still have pins appearing, and are far behind the cased subs. Even in the half/half cased/uncased tub has shitload more pins than the uncased side. I wish i had just cased everything. Take a look!
I will be updating this thread fairly often. So keep and eye out.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
Edited by iskinbash (03/19/09 03:02 PM)
|
Lennyk
D-O-L-E Dole
Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 2,385
Loc: Near the Ground
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9952901 - 03/11/09 04:52 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Looking forward to the results, my guess is the wax paper will be the best overall, simple, cheap, effective.
-------------------- Stealth Lighting Cubensis benefits beyond cluster headaches Mush Extract! (You can even use Vinegar!) Flame your needle in style with a sexy mini butane torch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What happens in the Romper Room, stays in the Romper Room. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All posts are written by the sex deprived helper monkey Curious George.
|
m08b08
BrainDead
Registered: 01/14/09
Posts: 1,083
Loc: In The Fog
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9952904 - 03/11/09 04:53 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
holy shit ! i wish that was mine wanna trade my cakes for your tub ? lol just kidding nice job !
--------------------
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: m08b08]
#9952991 - 03/11/09 05:05 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Something you may want to consider and test.. is fruiting the substrate as a cake (pop it out of the tub upside down, lay it on a lid or something) and compare that to a cased tray(and/or wax paper).
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#9953042 - 03/11/09 05:15 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Ive done that before, when i had tubs. It didnt convice me it was any better. but at this point, with a greenhouse, it would just makes things more messy.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
Edited by iskinbash (03/11/09 05:16 PM)
|
RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9953064 - 03/11/09 05:20 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
The wax paper isn't the same as a casing layer. It doesn't add moisture to support the flush. The only thing wax paper does is to help hold a high humidity right at the surface where primordia form. Be sure to lift it when you fan the trays, and replace it when it gets soggy. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
|
Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9953154 - 03/11/09 05:33 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
I remember a long time ago doing a side by side test of cased vs uncased substrate and they both did fruit fairly well although the uncased ones with the wax paper took quite a bit longer to fruit,the cased ones were finished with their second flush while I was getting the 1st pins on the non cased ones,I for one would go and grab myself some MGMC if I had something to case
|
RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#9953165 - 03/11/09 05:35 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Usually, the opposite is true. The wax paper covered uncased substrate fruits a week or so before the cased. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9953216 - 03/11/09 05:42 PM (15 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Usually, the opposite is true. The wax paper covered uncased substrate fruits a week or so before the cased. RR
I was under that impression. I am expecting the subs with wax paper to fruit much sooner. Im curious to watch them go.
And yes, I plan on misting / lifting the paper a couple times a day, along with replacing the wax paper every couple days, or as you put it RR, when it gets soggy. Thanks guys! loving this.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
Edited by iskinbash (03/11/09 05:45 PM)
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9963629 - 03/13/09 08:03 AM (15 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
So, quick question for anyone who has used the wax paper method before. In my greenhouse, the humidity makes the wax paper soft, and the weight of the added moisture makes the wax paper lay against the top of my sub instead of staying crinkley, and holding itself up. Is is a bad thing to have the wax paper actually lay against the top of the sub? I was thinking of sticking a toothpick straight up out of the middle of the sub, and kinda making a tent like thing to keep the wax paper off. Anyone have the same issue or any advice? Thanks a lot.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
Edited by iskinbash (03/13/09 08:04 AM)
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9964754 - 03/13/09 01:06 PM (15 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iskinbash said: So, quick question for anyone who has used the wax paper method before. In my greenhouse, the humidity makes the wax paper soft, and the weight of the added moisture makes the wax paper lay against the top of my sub instead of staying crinkley, and holding itself up. Is is a bad thing to have the wax paper actually lay against the top of the sub? I was thinking of sticking a toothpick straight up out of the middle of the sub, and kinda making a tent like thing to keep the wax paper off. Anyone have the same issue or any advice? Thanks a lot.
If you're getting added moisture that is actually weighing the paper down(making it unwrinkled).. your environmental conditions are likely good. You may not see many benefits to its use in this way... Like a casing layer, it just helps with if environmental conditions are less than optimal.
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#9964793 - 03/13/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
hmm. thats a really good point.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
Captain Caveman
Uh-oh!
Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9964813 - 03/13/09 01:17 PM (15 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Im having greenhouse issues too. My RH dropped from 100% down to 85%. I didnt start with the wax paper until I noticed this because Im not using a casing layer. I gotta figure out how this happened...
-------------------- "Captain CAAAAAAAVEMAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!"
|
thefinalhours
Student
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 252
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
|
so you are covering the trays with wax paper? Did you do that to the casing?
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
|
The subs with wax paper dont have a casing layer. This was them before the wax paper was applied...
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
Edited by iskinbash (03/13/09 01:26 PM)
|
thefinalhours
Student
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 252
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9964860 - 03/13/09 01:26 PM (15 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iskinbash said: The subs with wax paper dont have a casing layer.
So you just broke up your substrates and layered them, then covered with wax paper? Hmm....I might do that next time. I don't like waiting for the casing layer to get colonized.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
|
I layered colonized WBS with hpoo/coir, waited for them to colonize, put them in fruiting conditions and added the wax paper.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
thefinalhours
Student
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 252
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
|
SO I've got a montub that is been put into fruiting conditions, could I lay down some wax paper to speed this up?
|
Captain Caveman
Uh-oh!
Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
|
No. It might propagate any contam spores that might already be there. Wax paper, as I understand it from RR, is to be used only from the very start.
-------------------- "Captain CAAAAAAAVEMAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!"
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
|
It doesnt speed it up necessarily. Is your monotub uncased? The wax paper just creates a microclimate similar to a casing layer, but you need to lift the paper for FAE and mist accordingly. In the wax paper vs casing layer, the wax paper should allow the sub to fruit sooner since there is no casing layer to colonize. So in that respect, it should be faster...but im waiting to find out for sure.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
Edited by iskinbash (03/13/09 01:32 PM)
|
thefinalhours
Student
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 252
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
|
No my tub is cased
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
|
well then there really isnt any need for the wax paper. you can try it on your next grow though, and leave your tub uncased.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9965102 - 03/13/09 02:09 PM (15 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
If your wax paper is getting wet/soggy quickly, it sounds like your humidifier is pumping more moisture than the air can absorb, thus it's raining back down. This could be a bad thing. I'd adjust the timer to stop the problem. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
|
oddiseus
The PsychofunkFirefly
Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 456
Loc: Doldrums & Faultlines
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9965184 - 03/13/09 02:22 PM (15 years, 9 days ago) |
|
|
I think the wax paper laying directly on top is going to do the same thing as RR said and create the microclimate that the cased layer has. It seams if it works then deciding which one is a cleaner/easier technique would be the next step.
-------------------- Though you can't go back and make a new beginning. You can start today to make a new end. Traveller, there is no path, paths are made by walking If Jesus was jewish...Why does he have a mexican name??
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: oddiseus]
#9987108 - 03/17/09 06:30 AM (15 years, 6 days ago) |
|
|
UPDATE - 3/17. First post.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
Captain Caveman
Uh-oh!
Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9988163 - 03/17/09 12:03 PM (15 years, 5 days ago) |
|
|
So you cased them the same day you introduced them to fruiting, right?
-------------------- "Captain CAAAAAAAVEMAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!"
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
|
Yup, but the wax paper was applied maybe a day or two later.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
Captain Caveman
Uh-oh!
Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#9988201 - 03/17/09 12:10 PM (15 years, 5 days ago) |
|
|
Gotcha.
-------------------- "Captain CAAAAAAAVEMAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!"
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
|
Take a look at the update in the first post. Results are quite stunning.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10002006 - 03/19/09 03:19 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
How is your greenhouse set up, all the details?
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
|
Ganja420Boy
Heroic Doser
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 1,207
Loc: CoSmoS
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10002078 - 03/19/09 03:30 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Im thinking the one had more pins ect. due to it being multispore just a thought.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10002132 - 03/19/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ganja420Boy said: Im thinking the one had more pins ect. due to it being multispore just a thought.
Everything is multispore...and across the board, the cased is doing a lot better than the uncased. Its not simply just a 'genetics' thing.
Quote:
shroomzey said: How is your greenhouse set up, all the details?
Its a 4 tier with a cool mist running at the bottom 24/7, another cool mist piping in fresh air for probably about 15 minutes every hour or two. Plenty of holes throughout the cover for FAE. The greenhouse is sitting in a large bin lifted off the ground with 2x3s with a hole in the middle for drainage and a tray underneath to catch the drainage.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
Edited by iskinbash (03/19/09 03:39 PM)
|
RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10002141 - 03/19/09 03:39 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iskinbash said: Take a look at the update in the first post. Results are quite stunning.
It's much better to update at the end of a thread so those of us with slow connections don't have to download the whole thread each time. I live out in the middle of bfe, and my only internet source is satellite, which is a LOT slower than even dsl. It's better than dialup, but not much. If there's a four page thread, I just click on page 4 if I've already been following the thread. Thanks.
Your results are the opposite of what most, if not all of the growers who have done this have achieved. It sounds like either the luck of the draw with multispore inoculation, or your fruiting chamber conditions are less than optimal. Cubensis doesn't require a casing layer, and rarely performs better with one. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
|
Sorry RR, i shall keep that in mind next time.
UPDADE 3/19
Ok, so unlike i thought, the cased substrates by far out performed the uncased subs. They pinned sooner, and are fruiting much much more than the uncased ones. The uncased subs still have pins appearing, and are far behind the cased subs. Even in the half/half cased/uncased tub has shitload more pins than the uncased side. I wish i had just cased everything. Take a look!
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10002222 - 03/19/09 03:54 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
If they're not both the exact same single sector isolated fruiting strains, it doesn't matter. You can't just put snow tires on a corvette and expect it to outperform a jeep in Alaska during winter, if you get what I'm saying. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
|
Yeah, something doesn't seem right. My experience with casings is that you'll get a a better pinset, more even, more of them. But that'll results in a ton of smaller mushrooms. Uncased I'll get fewer, but larger mushrooms, which I like better because it doesn't completely decimate the surface of the substrate after harvest, and the second flush seems to agree. The yield between the two is negligible. Also, since you're going uncased there is less work involved. The only thing I'd assure casing is definitely useful for is if the environmental conditions are poor...
Its just weird to me seeing that uncased tray with such a shitty pinset, something is up... I had a 16 x 16 x 2.5" tray that I shit a brick over a little bit ago, the pinset was not as even as a cased tray but it was a total cluster fuck, and the wet weight that came off of it was insane.
Right now I'm fruiting a bunch of MS 6 quart tubs, some still in the tub, some plopped out. And even that seems to be negligible... there is a larger surface area to fruit with but not real variance in yield. I'll be fruiting the same situation but with an isolate in a few days.
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
Edited by shroomzey (03/19/09 04:14 PM)
|
azshroomer
no1
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 282
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey] 1
#10002395 - 03/19/09 04:24 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
nice flush!
|
Spongiform
Some Cow
Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 3,994
Loc: Greener Pastures
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10002508 - 03/19/09 04:41 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
This is pretty interesting, I was planning on doing the same experiment with my PE clone next time. I'll be interested to see the final weights/pinsets.
-------------------- Spongiform's Plastic Tek - An Alternative to Glass Spongi's PF Block Tek & Automated Shotgun Project.
|
RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
|
|
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
|
Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
|
|
Thats so strange to me,the complete opposite from what I got when I did a side by side,I had already harvested and dried my 1st and was looking at my second flush coming up from the cased subs before the uncased wax paper ones even had a single fruit . Wish I could do it again,if I ever do I'm taking lots of pictures if the results are the same
|
Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10002920 - 03/19/09 05:56 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
They both performed well in the end but the cased ones were SO much faster in my experience,wish I had my thread about it book marked to link to here,Eh maybe I will look for it later
|
dead
grateful
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2,761
Loc: North pole
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10002984 - 03/19/09 06:06 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
I believe OP has humidity issues or something... Maybe his uncased subs dried out... or maybe it's multispore.
I'd like to see the same test performed with an isolate, in a FC with 99% humidity and good FAE.
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
|
Spongiform
Some Cow
Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 3,994
Loc: Greener Pastures
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: dead]
#10003247 - 03/19/09 06:40 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Hang on. If it's 99% RH, then you don't need wax paper OR a casing. Both are used to create micro-climates.
-------------------- Spongiform's Plastic Tek - An Alternative to Glass Spongi's PF Block Tek & Automated Shotgun Project.
|
Ganja420Boy
Heroic Doser
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 1,207
Loc: CoSmoS
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10003271 - 03/19/09 06:44 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iskinbash said: Everything is multispore...and across the board, the cased is doing a lot better than the uncased. Its not simply just a 'genetics' thing.
I disagree that cased produces alot more than uncased, maybe alittle but not by much because I have done the same as that link that RR posted by LD but mine was multi spore then G2G then spawned and my tubs came out around the same, maybe because the enviorment is better in the tub maybe you should try this in a mono tub with cased uncased and then decide on that.
Edited by Ganja420Boy (03/19/09 06:59 PM)
|
dead
grateful
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2,761
Loc: North pole
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
|
|
You don't need to tell me. I fruit uncased with no wax papers in 99% rH and my results are good enough for me...
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
|
You missed quoted me on that first post ganja, please edit your post. iskinbash said that.
I didn't say it was caused by anything, I'm just skeptical of the environmental conditions. Like I said, seems weird.
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
Edited by shroomzey (03/19/09 06:53 PM)
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10003315 - 03/19/09 06:52 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Blutjager said: Thats so strange to me,the complete opposite from what I got when I did a side by side,I had already harvested and dried my 1st and was looking at my second flush coming up from the cased subs before the uncased wax paper ones even had a single fruit . Wish I could do it again,if I ever do I'm taking lots of pictures if the results are the same
Yeah but large dose wasn't using wax paper. I think wax paper helps if the environmental conditions are poor, but if the conditions are perfect, maybe wax paper is a nuisance?
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
|
Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10003408 - 03/19/09 07:04 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shroomzey said:
Quote:
Blutjager said: Thats so strange to me,the complete opposite from what I got when I did a side by side,I had already harvested and dried my 1st and was looking at my second flush coming up from the cased subs before the uncased wax paper ones even had a single fruit . Wish I could do it again,if I ever do I'm taking lots of pictures if the results are the same
Yeah but large dose wasn't using wax paper. I think wax paper helps if the environmental conditions are poor, but if the conditions are perfect, maybe wax paper is a nuisance?
I didn't have a hygrometer in the greenhouse so I just used the wax paper as a failsafe,I'm positive my humidity was not perfect.Despite a cool mist and trays of perlite,the uncased would often look dry,dry enough that I actually resorted to leaving them sitting in a very shallow bit of water so they could "Soak it up" as needed because even misting didn't seem to be doing the job..Eh,as usual so may factors go into every grow its near impossible to replicate anything exactly,and it was multispore so even though it was the same spores used for the cased substrates I suppose that could very well have had something to do with it,who knows
|
Ganja420Boy
Heroic Doser
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 1,207
Loc: CoSmoS
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10003411 - 03/19/09 07:05 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shroomzey said: Yeah but large dose wasn't using wax paper. I think wax paper helps if the environmental conditions are poor, but if the conditions are perfect, maybe wax paper is a nuisance?
If thats the case wouldnt a casing be a nuisance too? I really wouldnt know because I will never use a casing again.
|
archivist
5-HT
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 1,010
|
|
Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
-------------------- Proud supporter of the canning jar industry.
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
|
I think the issue is this:
The casing layer helps provide a great micro-climate and to help provide more moisture to the substrate. Thats good, but not worth the effort if the entire ambient environment is ideal. Especially since the casing layer takes time to prepare and use, and that in time it can contaminate since it is easier for contams to get a foothold in casing layers than the 100% substrate itself.
Wax paper helps hold that high humidity right at the surface of the substrate, but possibly reduces fresh air exchange, and light?
If that is the case, or that makes sense then it would be a nuisance when the ambient conditions are ideal as in:
shitty condition : wax brings up humidity, better performance.
good conditions : wax paper restricts FAE & light, environment already has good rh.
Quote:
archivist said: You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
Yeah that had me suspecting as well. It's pinning on the sides because the small crevices have a better climate than the rest of it, a problem(or not) shrinkage creates.
Edited by shroomzey (03/19/09 07:17 PM)
|
Ganja420Boy
Heroic Doser
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 1,207
Loc: CoSmoS
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10003588 - 03/19/09 07:27 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
I know when I had a martha setup it was the poorest thing I have ever tried because the humidity varied too much, it worked some what but when I tryed a tub that martha went straight to the dumpster, so im guessing this is why the tubs I did cased vs uncased was more the same becase everything was ideal.
|
iriehighs
Stranger
Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 1
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
|
|
hello all,
I know this isn't really the right place to ask this but can anyone point me in the right direction to get hooked up with someone that can give me some good answers for some monotub ?'s i have? I've got a worm poo/verm/straw box that is taking forever to colonize
thanks
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: archivist]
#10004280 - 03/19/09 09:08 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
archivist said: Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
I may be totally wrong on this train of though, and i really appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts, but in reference to the quote above, i was thinking the uncased subs might be pinning at the sides because they were able to get better fresh air exchange there because they were on the edges of the wax paper. I lifted the wax paper and fanned about 2 times a day. Maybe it wasnt enough?
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10004311 - 03/19/09 09:15 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iskinbash said:
Quote:
archivist said: Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
I may be totally wrong on this train of though, and i really appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts, but in reference to the quote above, i was thinking the uncased subs might be pinning at the sides because they were able to get better fresh air exchange there
|
Damion5050
Mush Doctor
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 12,493
Loc: Lost In Translation !
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10004336 - 03/19/09 09:18 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iskinbash said:
Quote:
archivist said: Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
I may be totally wrong on this train of though, and i really appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts, but in reference to the quote above, i was thinking the uncased subs might be pinning at the sides because they were able to get better fresh air exchange there because they were on the edges of the wax paper. I lifted the wax paper and fanned about 2 times a day. Maybe it wasnt enough?
There is nothing wrong with side pinning as stated by RR, He said he has seen some of the best fruits come from side pinning. The problem is that they are just annoying when it comes time to harvest because it is alittle difficult to get to them and if you don't pick them they can rot and fuck your grow up.
|
Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
|
|
Quote:
Damion5050 said:
Quote:
iskinbash said:
Quote:
archivist said: Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
I may be totally wrong on this train of though, and i really appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts, but in reference to the quote above, i was thinking the uncased subs might be pinning at the sides because they were able to get better fresh air exchange there because they were on the edges of the wax paper. I lifted the wax paper and fanned about 2 times a day. Maybe it wasnt enough?
There is nothing wrong with side pinning as stated by RR, He said he has seen some of the best fruits come from side pinning. The problem is that they are just annoying when it comes time to harvest because it is alittle difficult to get to them and if you don't pick them they can rot and fuck your grow up.
I agree 100%,I don't care where they grow from they are still mushrooms nonetheless.If they popped out in a great pinset thats great but I have had some monsters grow from the sides and I sure wouldn't complain that they grew there.better there than not at all
|
Damion5050
Mush Doctor
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 12,493
Loc: Lost In Translation !
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10004435 - 03/19/09 09:32 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Yeah I use to worry like crazy about side pinning till RR set me straight and he was right I have had some monsters come from side pinning.
As far as casing here are my thoughts.
Casing layers are not really needed for almost anything if you can maintain 95% Rh or better. A casing layer is basically a micro climate. The casing layer helps hold in moisture right at the substrate level. So if you have big fluctuations in your Rh, then a casing layer is a good idea.
Because it will help maintain the Rh right at the top of the substrate. If a mono tub is done right then they maintain Rh and no casing is necessary. Same thing with trays in a green house, if the green house is running right it will maintain a high Rh level and there is no need for casings
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10004507 - 03/19/09 09:40 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
I can totally understand the thought that my fruiting conditions are not completely ideal, and that that is the reason the casings outperformed the uncased subs...because they created a better climate for pinning, but i believe my setup isnt too far from ideal. They were both under the same conditions and one had wax paper and one had a casing layer, and in those conditions, the casing layer created a better climate for pinning overall as shown by the results.. I know this was multispore so anything can happen, and im currently working on being comfortable enough with my agar and transfers that I could make a single sector isolate and test that, but like i said, im working on that.
The point wasnt to see whether a cased sub could out perform an uncased sub, it was to see what could create a better micro climate...a casing layer or wax paper. Even if my fruiting conditions werent ideal, both cased sub and subs with wax paper were both under the same conditions. I actually think unideal conditions would be needed to test the effectiveness of a casing layer vs wax paper to see which could inhabit the unideal condition and make it ideal for fruiting.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10004635 - 03/19/09 09:57 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Well do another comparison.
Uncased versus uncased w/ wax paper.
We're all men of science here.
*waits for HippieChick to pop in and disrupt*
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10004687 - 03/19/09 10:05 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Thats a good idea. Im really not trying to say 'this is how it is because this is what happened'. Im just like you all...growing is my favorite part. The science fascinates me and i want to learn as fast as i can. Things like this are fun to me and i love everyones responses.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10006288 - 03/20/09 06:52 AM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shroomzey said: Well do another comparison.
Uncased versus uncased w/ wax paper.
We're all men of science here.
*waits for HippieChick to pop in and disrupt*
Agreed,where is HippieChick.I have not seen her in here in a while
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10013233 - 03/21/09 11:24 AM (15 years, 1 day ago) |
|
|
Total first flush - 3331.5gs wet with plenty more not matured yet.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10013973 - 03/21/09 01:36 PM (15 years, 1 day ago) |
|
|
From all trays and tubs? Any idea what your total volume of substrate was?
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10014272 - 03/21/09 02:17 PM (15 years, 1 day ago) |
|
|
well, i just went and measured the rough dimensions of the subs. I just did the calculations and i came up with 1.474 cubic feet. I wouldnt be surprised if i was totally wrong though. Mind you there still are plenty of fruits maturing and will probably be harvested tomorrow morning.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10014462 - 03/21/09 02:43 PM (15 years, 1 day ago) |
|
|
Post up the wet weight of the rest of the harvest, and get a total wet weight of all the first flushes. Right now you're around 1.3 wet G's per cubic inch, which is lower than what most people are hitting, low 2's seems acceptable.
Another thing I didn't catch with your split tub, the one with casing on half of it... is that the casing when providing a better pinning area is going to effectively "steal" the pinning from the non - cased half.
I bet if that tub had a plastic divider between the two, physically parting them, you'd see a less vigorous pinset on the cased, and more on the uncased. Since the whole sub block realizes the better pinning area is the cased, its sapping all the moisture & nutrients and pushing it all to the cased side.
Which is cool as fuck non the less. Goes to show just how sentient mycelium is. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10014558 - 03/21/09 03:03 PM (15 years, 1 day ago) |
|
|
Wow. I hadnt thought about that. Thats really cool. The flush off the cased side of the tub was just rediculous. I could barely get my hand in between them to start picking.
Ill finish all my weights and be sure to post them. Also, I had to put one of the subs in isolation a while ago because it got hit with trich. I salted it and the trich didnt grow anymore, but I kept it in isolation and I didnt get a real decent flush.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10018784 - 03/22/09 09:08 AM (15 years, 22 hours ago) |
|
|
I finished picking my first flush this morning. I picked 1695 gs making a total first flush of 5026.5 gs. How much per cubic inch is that? Not sure about the calculations.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
|
shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10018796 - 03/22/09 09:12 AM (15 years, 22 hours ago) |
|
|
5026 G's / 2547 cubic inches = 1.9 G's per cubic inch.
Thats more like it.
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
|
Edmunter
Mr
Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 5,699
Last seen: 2 days, 3 hours
|
|
Can you point me to a decent Wax paper tek? Im cooking with rye seed and fancied a change of casing methods. Much appreciated.
|
cronicr
Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Edmunter]
#19376696 - 01/06/14 10:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
old thread, search the bubble wrap tek
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
|
Edmunter
Mr
Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 5,699
Last seen: 2 days, 3 hours
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#19376707 - 01/06/14 10:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shroomzey said: 5026 G's / 2547 cubic inches = 1.9 G's per cubic inch.
Thats more like it.
5kg of mushrooms wow.
What do u do with them all?
|
FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition
Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
|
Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Edmunter]
#19376708 - 01/06/14 10:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think any of these members posting here actually post here any longer man.
|
|