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Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10002920 - 03/19/09 05:56 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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They both performed well in the end but the cased ones were SO much faster in my experience,wish I had my thread about it book marked to link to here,Eh maybe I will look for it later
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dead
grateful
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2,761
Loc: North pole
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10002984 - 03/19/09 06:06 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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I believe OP has humidity issues or something... Maybe his uncased subs dried out... or maybe it's multispore.
I'd like to see the same test performed with an isolate, in a FC with 99% humidity and good FAE.
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
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Spongiform
Some Cow
Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 3,994
Loc: Greener Pastures
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: dead]
#10003247 - 03/19/09 06:40 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Hang on. If it's 99% RH, then you don't need wax paper OR a casing. Both are used to create micro-climates.
-------------------- Spongiform's Plastic Tek - An Alternative to Glass Spongi's PF Block Tek & Automated Shotgun Project.
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Ganja420Boy
Heroic Doser
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 1,207
Loc: CoSmoS
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10003271 - 03/19/09 06:44 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
iskinbash said: Everything is multispore...and across the board, the cased is doing a lot better than the uncased. Its not simply just a 'genetics' thing.
I disagree that cased produces alot more than uncased, maybe alittle but not by much because I have done the same as that link that RR posted by LD but mine was multi spore then G2G then spawned and my tubs came out around the same, maybe because the enviorment is better in the tub maybe you should try this in a mono tub with cased uncased and then decide on that.
Edited by Ganja420Boy (03/19/09 06:59 PM)
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dead
grateful
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2,761
Loc: North pole
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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You don't need to tell me. I fruit uncased with no wax papers in 99% rH and my results are good enough for me...
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
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shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
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You missed quoted me on that first post ganja, please edit your post. iskinbash said that.
I didn't say it was caused by anything, I'm just skeptical of the environmental conditions. Like I said, seems weird.
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
Edited by shroomzey (03/19/09 06:53 PM)
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shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10003315 - 03/19/09 06:52 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Blutjager said: Thats so strange to me,the complete opposite from what I got when I did a side by side,I had already harvested and dried my 1st and was looking at my second flush coming up from the cased subs before the uncased wax paper ones even had a single fruit . Wish I could do it again,if I ever do I'm taking lots of pictures if the results are the same
Yeah but large dose wasn't using wax paper. I think wax paper helps if the environmental conditions are poor, but if the conditions are perfect, maybe wax paper is a nuisance?
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
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Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10003408 - 03/19/09 07:04 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
shroomzey said:
Quote:
Blutjager said: Thats so strange to me,the complete opposite from what I got when I did a side by side,I had already harvested and dried my 1st and was looking at my second flush coming up from the cased subs before the uncased wax paper ones even had a single fruit . Wish I could do it again,if I ever do I'm taking lots of pictures if the results are the same
Yeah but large dose wasn't using wax paper. I think wax paper helps if the environmental conditions are poor, but if the conditions are perfect, maybe wax paper is a nuisance?
I didn't have a hygrometer in the greenhouse so I just used the wax paper as a failsafe,I'm positive my humidity was not perfect.Despite a cool mist and trays of perlite,the uncased would often look dry,dry enough that I actually resorted to leaving them sitting in a very shallow bit of water so they could "Soak it up" as needed because even misting didn't seem to be doing the job..Eh,as usual so may factors go into every grow its near impossible to replicate anything exactly,and it was multispore so even though it was the same spores used for the cased substrates I suppose that could very well have had something to do with it,who knows
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Ganja420Boy
Heroic Doser
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 1,207
Loc: CoSmoS
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10003411 - 03/19/09 07:05 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
shroomzey said: Yeah but large dose wasn't using wax paper. I think wax paper helps if the environmental conditions are poor, but if the conditions are perfect, maybe wax paper is a nuisance?
If thats the case wouldnt a casing be a nuisance too? I really wouldnt know because I will never use a casing again.
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archivist
5-HT
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 1,010
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Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
-------------------- Proud supporter of the canning jar industry.
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shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
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I think the issue is this:
The casing layer helps provide a great micro-climate and to help provide more moisture to the substrate. Thats good, but not worth the effort if the entire ambient environment is ideal. Especially since the casing layer takes time to prepare and use, and that in time it can contaminate since it is easier for contams to get a foothold in casing layers than the 100% substrate itself.
Wax paper helps hold that high humidity right at the surface of the substrate, but possibly reduces fresh air exchange, and light?
If that is the case, or that makes sense then it would be a nuisance when the ambient conditions are ideal as in:
shitty condition : wax brings up humidity, better performance.
good conditions : wax paper restricts FAE & light, environment already has good rh.
Quote:
archivist said: You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
Yeah that had me suspecting as well. It's pinning on the sides because the small crevices have a better climate than the rest of it, a problem(or not) shrinkage creates.
Edited by shroomzey (03/19/09 07:17 PM)
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Ganja420Boy
Heroic Doser
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 1,207
Loc: CoSmoS
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: shroomzey]
#10003588 - 03/19/09 07:27 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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I know when I had a martha setup it was the poorest thing I have ever tried because the humidity varied too much, it worked some what but when I tryed a tub that martha went straight to the dumpster, so im guessing this is why the tubs I did cased vs uncased was more the same becase everything was ideal.
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iriehighs
Stranger
Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 1
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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hello all,
I know this isn't really the right place to ask this but can anyone point me in the right direction to get hooked up with someone that can give me some good answers for some monotub ?'s i have? I've got a worm poo/verm/straw box that is taking forever to colonize
thanks
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iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: archivist]
#10004280 - 03/19/09 09:08 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
archivist said: Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
I may be totally wrong on this train of though, and i really appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts, but in reference to the quote above, i was thinking the uncased subs might be pinning at the sides because they were able to get better fresh air exchange there because they were on the edges of the wax paper. I lifted the wax paper and fanned about 2 times a day. Maybe it wasnt enough?
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
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Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10004311 - 03/19/09 09:15 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
iskinbash said:
Quote:
archivist said: Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
I may be totally wrong on this train of though, and i really appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts, but in reference to the quote above, i was thinking the uncased subs might be pinning at the sides because they were able to get better fresh air exchange there
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Damion5050
Mush Doctor
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 12,493
Loc: Lost In Translation !
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10004336 - 03/19/09 09:18 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
iskinbash said:
Quote:
archivist said: Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
I may be totally wrong on this train of though, and i really appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts, but in reference to the quote above, i was thinking the uncased subs might be pinning at the sides because they were able to get better fresh air exchange there because they were on the edges of the wax paper. I lifted the wax paper and fanned about 2 times a day. Maybe it wasnt enough?
There is nothing wrong with side pinning as stated by RR, He said he has seen some of the best fruits come from side pinning. The problem is that they are just annoying when it comes time to harvest because it is alittle difficult to get to them and if you don't pick them they can rot and fuck your grow up.
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Blutjager
Inhuman
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
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Quote:
Damion5050 said:
Quote:
iskinbash said:
Quote:
archivist said: Poor humidity in your FC was the culprit here, not the lack of casing. Granted, a casing will help you achieve good results with suboptimal humidity, but it isn't a silver bullet for higher yields. You can tell that your humidity was too low because the uncased substrate only pinned on the sides, where the proximity to the edge of the pan kept your substrate from drying out.
I may be totally wrong on this train of though, and i really appreciate everyones feedback and thoughts, but in reference to the quote above, i was thinking the uncased subs might be pinning at the sides because they were able to get better fresh air exchange there because they were on the edges of the wax paper. I lifted the wax paper and fanned about 2 times a day. Maybe it wasnt enough?
There is nothing wrong with side pinning as stated by RR, He said he has seen some of the best fruits come from side pinning. The problem is that they are just annoying when it comes time to harvest because it is alittle difficult to get to them and if you don't pick them they can rot and fuck your grow up.
I agree 100%,I don't care where they grow from they are still mushrooms nonetheless.If they popped out in a great pinset thats great but I have had some monsters grow from the sides and I sure wouldn't complain that they grew there.better there than not at all
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Damion5050
Mush Doctor
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 12,493
Loc: Lost In Translation !
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10004435 - 03/19/09 09:32 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Yeah I use to worry like crazy about side pinning till RR set me straight and he was right I have had some monsters come from side pinning.
As far as casing here are my thoughts.
Casing layers are not really needed for almost anything if you can maintain 95% Rh or better. A casing layer is basically a micro climate. The casing layer helps hold in moisture right at the substrate level. So if you have big fluctuations in your Rh, then a casing layer is a good idea.
Because it will help maintain the Rh right at the top of the substrate. If a mono tub is done right then they maintain Rh and no casing is necessary. Same thing with trays in a green house, if the green house is running right it will maintain a high Rh level and there is no need for casings
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iskinbash
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1,063
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: Blutjager]
#10004507 - 03/19/09 09:40 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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I can totally understand the thought that my fruiting conditions are not completely ideal, and that that is the reason the casings outperformed the uncased subs...because they created a better climate for pinning, but i believe my setup isnt too far from ideal. They were both under the same conditions and one had wax paper and one had a casing layer, and in those conditions, the casing layer created a better climate for pinning overall as shown by the results.. I know this was multispore so anything can happen, and im currently working on being comfortable enough with my agar and transfers that I could make a single sector isolate and test that, but like i said, im working on that.
The point wasnt to see whether a cased sub could out perform an uncased sub, it was to see what could create a better micro climate...a casing layer or wax paper. Even if my fruiting conditions werent ideal, both cased sub and subs with wax paper were both under the same conditions. I actually think unideal conditions would be needed to test the effectiveness of a casing layer vs wax paper to see which could inhabit the unideal condition and make it ideal for fruiting.
-------------------- *iskinbash is merely a fictional character placed in a real life environment.
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shroomzey
Humble Student
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 904
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Re: Casing vs. Wax Paper [Re: iskinbash]
#10004635 - 03/19/09 09:57 PM (15 years, 3 days ago) |
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Well do another comparison.
Uncased versus uncased w/ wax paper.
We're all men of science here.
*waits for HippieChick to pop in and disrupt*
-------------------- 200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were. My Glovebox Find a respected member of the community and study them. I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more. Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.
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