Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing?
    #9935680 - 03/08/09 08:07 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Whether it is religious assuptions based on no facts, just personal opinion/ideology.  Or the topic of psychedelic assuptions based on no facts, just personal option/ideology.  Even when people are presented with informational fact that says they are wrong, yet people still cling to their previous ideologies saying "no thats wrong!  Nope nope nope, you don't know what your talking about. nope, nope nope...."

Those are just examples, however i don't understand how people can feel so strongly about something their "pretty sure" about.  And then when disproved they still cling on to their argument.  Even when it makes no sense at all. 

What is up with this?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Male


Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9935726 - 03/08/09 08:13 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Take a psychology course, it's explained in detail.

EDIT: I know this doesn't really help, I would type it out but quite frankly I am really tired.


--------------------

Edited by learningtofly (03/08/09 08:14 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,303
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: learningtofly]
    #9935787 - 03/08/09 08:21 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)



--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefigmentfragment
leaving shroomery

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 1,226
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9935873 - 03/08/09 08:35 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

I guess it really depends how established the idea in question has become, and the avenues that lead to the assumption in itself. When it seems thoughts are based on "not much" there however must be a level of reasoning that allowed a conclusion to be drawn, whether obvious or not. 

On the other hand...some people are just stubborn. :shrug:

Once I decided that this girl I met was called Louise. I found out soon after calling her Louise several times, her name was Erin...For some fucked up reason, even after acknowledging that her name was Erin, I kept calling her Louise...yeah  :fingernails: :foreheadslap:


--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSventington
am what I am what I am what I am

Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 532
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9936132 - 03/08/09 09:13 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Whether it is religious assuptions based on no facts, just personal opinion/ideology.  Or the topic of psychedelic assuptions based on no facts, just personal option/ideology.  Even when people are presented with informational fact that says they are wrong, yet people still cling to their previous ideologies saying "no thats wrong!  Nope nope nope, you don't know what your talking about. nope, nope nope...."

Those are just examples, however i don't understand how people can feel so strongly about something their "pretty sure" about.  And then when disproved they still cling on to their argument.  Even when it makes no sense at all. 

What is up with this?




It's more comfortable. Sometimes truth has no value beyond being truth, so what's the appeal of it over a perception which provides one with comfort?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Sventington]
    #9937546 - 03/09/09 12:35 AM (15 years, 24 days ago)

I guess this is true... but i think of that as a bad thing.  It restricts you from understanding knowledge instead of dismissing it.  Which is not a good thing imo.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9937734 - 03/09/09 01:16 AM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Trouble is, nobody can be really sure what the truth is.

There is no ultimate right or wrong when it comes to a person's position; for how do we know the objective reality by which to compare their beliefs to?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLethal Dose
Neuro
Male

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 364
Loc: Santa Cruz, CA
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Sventington]
    #9937998 - 03/09/09 03:16 AM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Sventington said:
It's more comfortable. Sometimes truth has no value beyond being truth, so what's the appeal of it over a perception which provides one with comfort?




If the person in question is trying to seek the truth, understanding is the appeal.

If the person in question is not trying to seek the truth, then it is useless arguing with them because they will believe whatever they want to believe to make themselves comfortable.


--------------------
On the scale of wibble to wobble...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Lethal Dose]
    #9938088 - 03/09/09 04:55 AM (15 years, 24 days ago)

H a b i t

(practice makes perfect - anything that is repeated enough...  including error)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9938466 - 03/09/09 08:19 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Those are just examples, however i don't understand how people can feel so strongly about something their "pretty sure" about.  And then when disproved they still cling on to their argument.

Everyone does this. Some more then others. Look more closely at your thoughts and day to day and you will see.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9938751 - 03/09/09 09:53 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

As opposed to based on something?

I am sitting here in the most comfortable lounge at my university, which also happens to be in the buisness building (typing on an ipod touch.) Most the comfy rooms in this complex are apparently gifts from buisness alumni, evidenced by bronze plaques hanging over the doors. This is where and when I wait for the next class, and I share this space with the current buisness students routinely meet to discuss I don't even know what. There is alot of talk about events, communications, leadership, programs, incentives, and especially "organizational structures". Somehow they are very jolly about this. Sometimes, someone will become very passionate about one thing or another, some particular interest or organization, where he or she emphatically declares they (the organization) "just care!"  Everybody then congradulates this person for being able to feel humane beauty. Apparently this is what it is all about. It's strange to me because I precisely understand most of these "network" terms, and I can see this feeling of transcendence, but I have no clue what they are talking about. They almost sound like religious people, and I want to say stop deluding yourself, these structures are only in your mind. But then I remember that I am the one who is irrelavent; out of place. So I usually just end up falling asleep in their supremely comfortable furniture.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,953
Last seen: 3 days, 13 hours
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Icelander]
    #9938767 - 03/09/09 09:58 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Those are just examples, however i don't understand how people can feel so strongly about something their "pretty sure" about.  And then when disproved they still cling on to their argument.

Everyone does this. Some more then others. Look more closely at your thoughts and day to day and you will see.




QFT

There are actually social psychological principles regarding this type of behavior. It's innate.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Kickle]
    #9939230 - 03/09/09 12:05 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

SO its natural for people to deny overwhelmingly backed up evidence about something, because it makes them uncomfortable?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9939358 - 03/09/09 12:31 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

I initially understood the thread title as an exposition on nothing, which is sort of interesting. But even looking at your question "backwards", I come to the same disagreement that I would foward.

Are you suggesting that there is an alternative to ideologies; such as a "fact based" reality?

Is it nothing as opposed to something?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9939406 - 03/09/09 12:42 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Well i was recently explaining to a person the effects of psychedelic substances.  They proceeded to tell me that when your tripping your brain thinks its dieing and its bleeding.... so forth and so on.  I calmly explained that they were in fact wrong.  And that many psychedelics are just agonizing the 5HT2A receptor.  And how serotonin effects mood, sleep, perception and this is what brings on the effects of the drug, and thats the best understanding of how these substances work. 

This person proceeded to tell me that i don't know what i'm talking about because im a "druggie" and that psychedelics most certainly do make your brain bleed.  I once again calmly explained again how psilocybin breaks down into psilocin which is 4-HO-DMT and that it has an affinity to this receptor because of its molecular structural similarities to serotonin.  This person went on to say "Yeah... Well... Your just a druggie, what do you know?" 

It made me frustrated because this person was just dismissing all the information in my argument because im a "druggie."  Meanwhile im a pretty studious college student.  I get my shit done, i'm not a dumb person.  But its this stigma of me being a "druggie" that makes me wrong about anything i say. 

However this person provided no evidence for their argument, yet so whole heartedly believed they were right, and i was wrong.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (03/09/09 12:47 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,303
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-conceived notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9939553 - 03/09/09 01:11 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

It's hard to say how the notion got implanted, but as per my Jenga picture, "brain bleeding" is associated with you/they being a loser, a druggie, a misfit, unintelligent, go nowhere, possibly anti-religious, cultish, wayward... unhappy, depressed... and DEAD.

Pulling that one piece out, would cause him to re-conceptualize everything he's associated with it, possibly finding other non-truths. He doesn't want his ivory tower to fall, especially the part that would reveal death anxiety. Letting go of an obvious like "brain bleeding" would lead to other things. Holding on to it, allows him to remain insulated from reality with the egoic shell he's building. "Brain bleeding" is a trigger which reaffirms everything he knows about drugs=bad=death.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9939684 - 03/09/09 01:43 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
What is up with this?





Why do people look at modern art and say "I could have done that!"?
Why do so many people have no conversational tact?
Why do so many people think their opinions and stories are new and not cut and pasted?

Because people are profoundly, readily, insensibly stupid and conflict-based.
Either they ignore anything different or they must fight it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9939707 - 03/09/09 01:47 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
H a b i t

(practice makes perfect - anything that is repeated enough...  including error)





Even this standpoint (habit).

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9939846 - 03/09/09 02:11 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Yeah, luckily I haven't had to deal with this sort of ridicule for a while. So first of all, I basically agree with you, in that I do not think we are all brain fried here. :lol:

But I think its important to acknowledge that its not as though fact were the undeluded and nonvalued alternative to ideology/myth though. For instance, it has never been difficult to purport facts concerning marijuana. I believe it is this dialect itself that is basically stagnating the cause. Number one and number two hit for fact vs myth on marijuana through google:


fact vs Myth

Or is it

Myth Vs Fact

How is it that both sides make an appeal to fact?

Once acknowledged, the ideology/myth becomes the necessary structure of facts. When it is recognized in one situation, we must conclude that the entire world is the same ideological/mythical fabric. You could say ideology applies to either nothing (if you choose not to think of it) or everything, there is no in between. For instance, you say your friend has no basis for his/her ideology, but neither do you. Facts are only extra toppings. 

It may seem easy to conclude that your standpoint is "more scientific", especially around here, but if the person was a bit more tactful and simply said that mushrooms change you, and have marked "negative effects" on peoples lives and society; well this would be his/her ideology in plain English. Its frustrating because their basic ideology is valid, even though it is topped with some very bad science. There is really not much you could actually convince this person of. I would say the ideology has little to do with the facts, even though they will often come interposed.

Heres my situation, maybe you can relate. I know that all my old friends and family have probably concluded that mushrooms have ruined my life, because I was very frank to them about what I was doing. I know that I can't even begin to convince them otherwise.
Mushrooms to me have been a major catalyst, and to the outsider there is no telling whether they ruined my life, or pushed me to transcend it. There is no quality to the void that my life once was, that identity is gone. Whether shrooms killed it or left it behind; there is almost no use trying to convince anyone of this difference, because they will see it how they want to.

On that note, I am one of the few people around this forum who thinks that Tim Leary had it right, to tune in, turn on, and drop out. I can only speak from my own experience, but I would say that its probably going to happen anyway, so you had might as well acknowledge it. Mushrooms are controversial because that is all they can be. They are either repressed, or they are revolutionary, and I will support the latter.

So consider that the ideological structure precedes the facts. For instance, if or when marijuana becomes legal, its most likely not going to be due to a scientific breakthrough of such facts. Just like any other substance that has been said to "require further scientific research" to determine the safety, it is only in a very superficial sense that this timeline is actually connected with the scientific research. Sure, the research parallels the real drive, and we see it as one vehicle, but it is not absolute. There is something that presents itself as "understanding" or "knowledge", that is all we know.

Seeing how well pushing facts has brought us, I think its a good idea to the structure or framework of understanding that is going to take precedence. Once a structure is there, we refer to the "correct facts". So in an idealistic case of marijuana legalization, if it becomes legal in say 20 years, the facts are for the most part going to revert to pretty old science even though we really could have known this for a very long time. The facts for legalization are already there, but does anyone really say that the government is propagating pseudoscience?

I think we need to get away from the fact/science vs myth/ideology model of reality, because it only encourages political manipulations, and is basically ineffective. In my opinion, we need to first awaken to these conditions of our existence; then we can pump up the facts:

Quote:


"Whether the earth or the sun revolves around the other is a matter of profound indifference...Solely the balance between evidence and lyricism can allow us to achieve simultaneously emotion and lucidity. In a subject at once so humble and so heavy with emotion, the learned and classical dialectic must yield, one can see, to a more modest attitude of mind deriving at one and the same time from common sense and understanding."
- Albert Camus



Edited by daytripper23 (03/09/09 03:43 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMufungo
Coming at ya
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
Re: Why do people have such a hard time dropping pre-concieved notions based on nothing? *DELETED* [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9940842 - 03/09/09 04:31 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Post deleted by Mufungo

Reason for deletion: ...



--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! chemkid 1,649 14 08/08/02 05:00 PM
by Anonymous
* No, really, "DEATH"
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Frog 5,087 93 02/16/04 02:15 AM
by Shroomerious
* Aliens
( 1 2 3 all )
Droz 3,364 45 07/08/04 11:39 AM
by Swami
* Expectations or Clear Mind? LOPHO.MP 1,101 11 10/08/02 01:37 PM
by ChubbSubb
* I believe in everything
( 1 2 all )
ShroomismM 1,531 27 05/01/03 02:45 PM
by Zero7a1
* Does altruism exist?
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 2,334 23 09/16/03 01:19 AM
by TaoinShrrom
* concieving a child while both mother and father...
( 1 2 all )
uriahchase 2,352 22 03/10/05 09:24 PM
by Scarfmeister
* The Ten Commandments -- based on Deception....?
( 1 2 all )
PhanTomCat 1,588 24 02/12/05 12:50 PM
by MarkostheGnostic

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,828 topic views. 1 members, 7 guests and 47 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.