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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible!
    #9934894 - 03/08/09 06:10 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Yahoo News

MARYVILLE, Ill. – A pastor shot and killed during his Sunday sermon deflected the first of the gunman's four rounds with a Bible, sending a confetti-like spray of paper into the air in a horrifying scene that congregants initially thought was a skit, police said.

The gunman strode down the aisle of the sprawling First Baptist Church shortly after 8 a.m. and briefly spoke with The Rev. Fred Winters, then pulled out a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol and began firing until it jammed, Illinois State Police Director Larry Trent said. Churchgoers wrestled the gunman to the ground as he waved a knife, slashing himself and two other people, Trent said.

None of the about 150 congregants seemed to recognize the gunman and investigators do not know details of Winters' conversation with him, but they planned to review an audio recording of the service, Trent said. The service was not videotaped.

"We thought it was part of a drama skit ... when he shot, what you saw was confetti," said congregant Linda Cunningham, whose husband is a minister of adult education at the church. "We just sat there waiting for what comes next, not realizing that he had wounded the pastor."

Winters had stood on an elevated platform to deliver his sermon about finding happiness in the workplace and managed to run halfway down the sanctuary's side aisle before collapsing, Cunningham said.

Two congregants tackled the gunman as he pulled the 4-inch knife, and all three were stabbed, police said. The gunman suffered "a pretty serious wound to the neck" while one congregant had lower back wounds, Trent said.

Congregants knocked the gunman between sets of pews, then held him down until police arrived, said church member Don Bohley, who was just outside the sanctuary when the shooting began.

"People came running out and told us to call 911," said Bohley, 72.

Winters was pronounced dead at Anderson Hospital, hospital spokeswoman Natalie Head said.

Authorities didn't know whether Winters, a married father of two who had led the church for nearly 22 years, knew the gunman. Police described the gunman as a 27-year-old from nearby Troy but would not release his name pending possible charges.

Trent said investigators had not immediately uncovered evidence of a criminal background or mental illness.

"We don't know the relationship (between the gunman and pastor), why he's here or what the circumstances came about that caused him in the first place to be here," said Illinois State Police Master Trooper Ralph Timmins.

The Rev. Mark Jones, another pastor at First Baptist, said he briefly saw the gunman but not the shooting, though he heard a sound like miniature firecrackers.

"We have no idea what this guy's motives were," Jones said outside the church.

The gunman and 39-year-old congregant Terry Bullard underwent surgery at St. Louis University Hospital and were in serious condition Sunday evening, spokeswoman Laura Keller said. The other victim, Keith Melton, was treated and released from Gateway Regional Medical Center.

"I would call it heroic," Trent said. "While many understandably were stuck to their seats, they took to action."

First Baptist had an average attendance of 32 people when Winters became senior pastor in 1987; it now has about 1,200 members, according to the church's Web site. Winters also was former president of the Illinois Baptist State Association and an adjunct professor for Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, according to the site.

"Our great God is not surprised by this, or anything," Nate Adams, executive director of the Illinois Baptist State Association, said in a statement. "Tcolor:#red]That He allows evil and free will to have their way in tragedies like this is a mystery in many ways."


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9934980 - 03/08/09 06:22 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

"Our great God is not surprised by this, or anything," Nate Adams, executive director of the Illinois Baptist State Association, said in a statement. "That He allows evil and free will to have their way in tragedies like this is a mystery in many ways."

lol....i like how God, allows us to have free will, instead of just giving it to us out of the goodness of his heart.

or that he allows evil to happen like he could magically intervene at anytime.

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9935099 - 03/08/09 06:39 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

A man was murdered in cold blood? What a perfect time to mock religion. Great thread, OC! :laugh:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: Cameron]
    #9935108 - 03/08/09 06:42 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Only you would see the posting of a news article verbatim as mocking.


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OfflineKing Koopa
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9935118 - 03/08/09 06:43 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

It's mocking it when you said it was a miracle


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9935249 - 03/08/09 07:05 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Asking for four miracles in quick succession would be too much


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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OfflineDayzeoftheNu
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9935271 - 03/08/09 07:09 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Maybe god should have blessed him with the ability to juggle a slew of bullet proof bibles? :shrug:


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Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9936370 - 03/08/09 09:48 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Asking for four miracles in quick succession would be too much




Exactly. The first deflection was certainly a miracle, but then the pastor's faith weakened with each successive shot and finally, God could no longer protect him.


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: King Koopa]
    #9936716 - 03/08/09 10:26 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

why don't you respond to....

Quote:

King Koopa said:
It's mocking it when you said it was a miracle


?

why do you like to beat around the bush so much?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: King Koopa]
    #9936777 - 03/08/09 10:34 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

King Koopa said:
It's mocking it when you said it was a miracle




What's wrong with a little mocking every now and then?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinefigmentfragment
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: King Koopa]
    #9936905 - 03/08/09 10:55 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Mockery and sarcastic humour can be adopted and practiced as a coping mechanism. Then habit takes hold, and it just rolls off the tongue.

:shrug:


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Goodbye Shroomery.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: figmentfragment]
    #9936917 - 03/08/09 10:58 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

I cannot yet type with my tongue, but I will practice. :naughty:


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: deCypher]
    #9937190 - 03/08/09 11:31 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

King Koopa said:
It's mocking it when you said it was a miracle




What's wrong with a little mocking every now and then?




i'm not sure that he ever expressed there was anything wrong with it. he was merely responding to the fact that OC denied said mockery.

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OfflineKing Koopa
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: TameMe]
    #9937262 - 03/08/09 11:41 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Yeah. And I think it's because there was no fucking miracle. The preacher died. If there was a "miracle", then God is an idiot.


--------------------
Best Post on the Shroomery
Don't criticize my mess unless you'd like to become part of it.

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OfflineDayzeoftheNu
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: King Koopa]
    #9937269 - 03/08/09 11:42 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

King Koopa said:
Yeah. And I think it's because there was no fucking miracle. The preacher died. If there was a "miracle", then God is an idiot.




:rofl2::shrug:


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Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9937278 - 03/08/09 11:43 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Only you would see the posting of a news article verbatim as mocking.



And your somber thread title is so respectful of the dead.


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: Silversoul]
    #9937301 - 03/08/09 11:47 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

why should i respect a man that is dead? especially one that, to me, only existed in a newspaper article?

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OfflineDayzeoftheNu
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: TameMe]
    #9937482 - 03/09/09 12:22 AM (15 years, 24 days ago)

I want my dead body to fertilize a bunch of shrooms and weed plants.


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Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: DayzeoftheNu]
    #9937648 - 03/09/09 12:56 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

who gives a fuck? and why are you posting that here?

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OfflineDayzeoftheNu
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: TameMe]
    #9937761 - 03/09/09 01:25 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

you are so serious. Sorry guy didnt mean to hurt your feelings. :shrug:


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Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: DayzeoftheNu]
    #9937775 - 03/09/09 01:30 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

why would you presume my feelings were hurt?

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OfflineDayzeoftheNu
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: TameMe]
    #9937783 - 03/09/09 01:34 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

cause you were acting all upset cause I wanted to share that I would like my decomposing body to fuel some plants that my friends could get stoned off of in remembrance of me. I was kinda playing of the irony for respect for the dead. A bit off topic i must say but none the less perfectly harmless.


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Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: Silversoul]
    #9937805 - 03/09/09 01:44 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Here is the deal: A miracle is a judgement about an event in time.

Imagine showing the film of the shooting to a bunch of people who had never heard the story. But for this audience, the film ends with the first bullet being deflected. Ask an American audience and you would largely hear: "It's a miracle!"

Now show the clip to another similar audience and show them the whole episode. I doubt you would hear one exclamation of its a miracle.

Why do you think that is? (This is important.) Anyone feel free to answer.


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9937812 - 03/09/09 01:47 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

For security.

are you admitting to mockery now?

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OfflineDayzeoftheNu
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9937815 - 03/09/09 01:49 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Because after seeing the whole thing they realize that first defelction was pure luck, but the people only seeing the first delflection would say its a miracle because they know that its a preacher being shot at and they associate this with the Christian version of God. and that since he was a holy man this is a rational explanation for the said "luck"


--------------------
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: TameMe]
    #9937912 - 03/09/09 02:28 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Mod Edit: You've been warned and warned, now you're being banned. Keep this up and the ban will become permanent.

Edited by Diploid (03/11/09 08:19 PM)

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OfflineDayzeoftheNu
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9937945 - 03/09/09 02:47 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

TameMe said:
For security.

are you admitting to mockery now?




For fuck's sake, stop being a whiny bitch. :bitch:




ahh ha haa haaa. where were you earlier when that needed to be said? :shrug:


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Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9938482 - 03/09/09 08:24 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

"We thought it was part of a drama skit

True dat and no surprise to me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: Icelander]
    #9938493 - 03/09/09 08:27 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

The Day's Lecture:

Psalm 91:10 No evil will befall you, Nor will any plague come near your tent.

Psalm 121:7 The LORD will protect you from all evil.

Proverbs 1:33 "But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

Peter 3:13 Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?


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OfflineRoosterCogburn
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9938511 - 03/09/09 08:34 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
The Day's Lecture:

Psalm 91:10 No evil will befall you, Nor will any plague come near your tent.

Psalm 121:7 The LORD will protect you from all evil.

Proverbs 1:33 "But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

Peter 3:13 Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?





Fred Winters 8:8:09 Bibles shall not be used to deflect bullets

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: It's a miracle: Pastor deflects gunshot with Bible! [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9940796 - 03/09/09 04:24 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

TameMe said:
For security.

are you admitting to mockery now?




For fuck's sake, stop being a whiny bitch. :bitch:




i could give a fuck less if he was actually mocking it....

i just find it to be kind of silly to say shit like this...

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Only you would see the posting of a news article verbatim as mocking.




and what the fuck are you talking about anyway? what part of what i said was whining?

Quote:

ahh ha haa haaa. where were you earlier when that needed to be said? 




lol. because I called you out on going way off topic?

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Why do you think that is? (This is important.) Anyone feel free to answer.




So are you going to tell us why?

Edited by TameMe (03/09/09 04:47 PM)

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