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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto
    #9917884 - 03/05/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

From yesterday's Chicago Tribune.  I hadn't heard about it before, but apparently a Congressional group comprised of top members of both parties, including Russ Feingold (D-WI) in the Senate and Paul Ryan (R-WI) in the House have joined with John Mccain (R-Old) to introduce legislation that would give Barack Obama and future Presidents "Line-Item Veto" power, which allows them to strike individual lines, words, or even letters from *passed* legislation.  Such veto power gives the executive vast latitude to make sweeping changes in bills with little oversight from Congress.

I am firmly against this, not because I am worried about what Barack would do with it, but that I fear greatly what a Republican President would do.  This was law in Wisconsin for awhile when I first moved there, and it was a hard-fought battle to take it away from the Governor. Why two Wisconsin representatives would be behind a push to institute it nationally is beyond me.  I don't for a second buy their excuse that it would allow fiscal responsibility.  This is simply a move to consolidate power with an already overly powerful executive.

Quote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-feingoldryanveto1,0,2204339.story

Feingold, Ryan back presidential line item veto

By HENRY C. JACKSON | Associated Press Writer
   
12:21 PM CST, March 4, 2009

WASHINGTON - Democratic Sen. Russ Feingold and Republican Rep. Paul Ryan formed an unlikely partnership on Wednesday, coming together to push Congress to pass line item veto legislation.

The legislation would give President Barack Obama the power to strike individual items from budget bills.

The Wisconsin lawmakers joined Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona at a press conference on Wednesday to introduce the legislation.

"This bill is about the need to stop wasteful earmarks especially in this time of economic crisis," Feingold said. "... If Congress won't restrain itself the president should be able to try."

McCain was a key backer of previous line item veto legislation. The Supreme Court struck it down in 1998, and previous efforts to pass it did not gain traction.

Feingold, Ryan and McCain said Tuesday their bill was tweaked to make it constitutional. Under the legislation, Congress would be able to overrule line item vetoes with a simple majority vote in either chamber.

The 1998 legislation did not require congressional approval for the president's line item vetoes to be enacted. McCain said the alterations would ensure the bill passed legal muster but still served as a useful tool in curbing spending.

"If the bill were the law of the land, our president, President Obama, wouldn't have to choose between signing or vetoing this omnibus bill. He could clean it up," McCain said.

McCain was referring to an Omnibus Appropriations bill that is headed to Obama's desk. It contains more than 8,500 earmarks with an estimated price tag of $7.7 billion. The lawmakers said they want to get their legislation passed before Obama is presented with the spending bill.

Ryan said spending issues transcended party lines because earmarks and pork barrel projects have proved tempting to lawmakers in both parties.

"Look, neither party has cornered the market on virtue when it comes to spending," said Ryan, who is the ranking member of the House Budget Committee. "... We've got 9,000 earmarks that the House passed last week, $7.7 billion. 4,000 of those earmarks are from Republicans. So it's not as if one party is doing this well and one is not. both parties have contributed to the mess we have."





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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Edited by Madtowntripper (03/05/09 04:10 PM)

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9917981 - 03/05/09 04:09 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

Remarkable to me how soft Congress has become.  'Here Mr. President take some more power from us, go on we want you to'

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9918022 - 03/05/09 04:15 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

Why two Wisconsin representatives would be behind a push to institute it nationally is beyond me.

I heard this conspiracy theory that there is really only one party and they are trying to take over the country.

But don't worry, it's not true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Icelander]
    #9919183 - 03/05/09 07:41 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

Crap.  Russ Feingold usually comes down on the side of the constitution.


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What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: TGRR]
    #9919258 - 03/05/09 07:51 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

That's what's so strange.

And Paul Ryan is a gunslinging conservative.

I can't believe he'd give this power to Obama.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: TGRR]
    #9919269 - 03/05/09 07:53 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Crap.  Russ Feingold usually comes down on the side of the constitution.





yeah, but I'm wondering if this article is wrong about the actual law.  The article said he can veto the particular "line" or whatever of the legislation and let congress overide it with a majority.  I would still think that unconstitutional and bad policy.


If the legislation actually allows him to veto the particular line with the effect of vetoing the entire bill unless congress accepts the line item veto by a majority, then I would think it constitutional.




The problem is allowing a carefully compormised bill to be destroyed by a veto that removes the compromise.  This will then pass without the compromised section without any action needed by congress- unconstitutional.


This will only consolidate power and give the majority more power and the minority none.  Say its a close vote and so 10 greens or libertarians decide to support the bill if an amendment to stop the drug war on pain patients is added (for example).  They pass it with their votes.  Then the president vetos that and the bill passes without the compromise.  They just voted for the bill and it changed before their eyes- and they can't do anything about it!


If the bill changes it must be resubmited to congress to allow another vote.  This bill will allow a president to assure congress secretly that he'll veto whatever and allow them to make whatever compromise they want.  Then when they get support the president will unilaterally alter the bill and the compromise becomes null and void.  The only thing the majority needs to know is that the group they compromised isn't more than 50% and can't get the veto overriddent (as would be the case with a compromise with a small portion of a house) and they can offer whatever false promises they wnat.


What do you think?

Is this a good idea as reported?  Why or why not?  And does anyone know if hte reporting is accurate?

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9919748 - 03/05/09 09:03 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
That's what's so strange.

And Paul Ryan is a gunslinging conservative.

I can't believe he'd give this power to Obama.




Like the man said, "Something's rotten in Denmark".



--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

Edited by TGRR (03/05/09 09:03 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: johnm214]
    #9921191 - 03/06/09 03:14 AM (15 years, 16 days ago)

> This will only consolidate power and give the majority more power and the minority none.

It also gives the president 'blackmail' power over congress, or over members of congress.  He can start to line veto individuals, or positions, if congress doesn't give him what he wants.  As you pointed out, it also kills compromise.

The appropriate way to get rid of excess spending is not with line item veto, but by removing, through elections, the politicians that spend in excess.  With only 1 in 3 people in the US able to name the three branches of government, and fewer than that able to tell what those branches do, voting out the bad apples will never happen.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Seuss]
    #9921324 - 03/06/09 05:18 AM (15 years, 16 days ago)

Do you think that's what this is?

An admission by the Congress that it is completely unable to control the budget?

Not saying I disagree with you by any means, just an interesting take...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9921351 - 03/06/09 05:45 AM (15 years, 16 days ago)

> An admission by the Congress that it is completely unable to control the budget?

No; I think it is a way for the majority in congress to kill compromises made with the minority.  I actually supported the line item veto at one time.  Once I realized how badly it could be abused, allowing the president to hold congress hostage, I changed my position.  There needs to be clear separation of powers.  The line item veto reduces, rather than strengthens, that separation.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Seuss]
    #9921354 - 03/06/09 05:47 AM (15 years, 16 days ago)

Almost every time it's instituted it is later realized to be a terrible idea.

Both of this bills sponsors just went through this with the Governor in WI.

I don't get it.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Seuss]
    #9922114 - 03/06/09 10:43 AM (15 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

I actually supported the line item veto at one time.  Once I realized how badly it could be abused, allowing the president to hold congress hostage, I changed my position. 




Me too. At first it seemed like such a reasonable way of letting the Prez exercise his Constitutional veto power over, say, one particularly egregious earmark in an otherwise sensible bill, or to strip out some stealth "rider" clause implementing a contentious policy change which had been craftily inserted into a regular spending re-authorization bill or whatever. My take on it was that it would save a whole bunch of time, and - in the case of a spending bill - allow the day-to-day functioning of the various departments to continue rather than being put on hold till the whole lengthy rigamarole of re-debating, amending, voting, passing to the other chamber of Congress, voting again, yadda yadda yadda had taken place. At the time I was too unimaginative (or intellectually lazy, take your pick) to bother thinking it through all the way. It is a classic case of "unintended consequences".

I forget exactly which writer it was whose comments I read who pointed out the pitfalls. They were essentially the same pitfalls Seuss detailed. But the instant I read it through, I felt like a dunce for not having thought it through on my own. It was all so obvious once it was laid out.




Phred


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Phred]
    #9923878 - 03/06/09 04:01 PM (15 years, 16 days ago)

The one thing in the world that engenders bipartisan Congressional support, and the Shroomery is unanimously against it.

:lol:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisiblewhattheheck
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9924491 - 03/06/09 05:55 PM (15 years, 16 days ago)

Thank God! We all agree on at least one thing!! :rockon:


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A society whose whole idea is to eliminate suffering and bring it's members the greatest amount of comfort and pleasure is doomed to be destroyed -Thomas Merton

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Bipartisan Congressional Group Behind Push to Give Obama Line-Item Veto [Re: Seuss]
    #9925794 - 03/06/09 10:00 PM (15 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
The appropriate way to get rid of excess spending is not with line item veto, but by removing, through elections, the politicians that spend in excess.  With only 1 in 3 people in the US able to name the three branches of government, and fewer than that able to tell what those branches do, voting out the bad apples will never happen.




I swear to god if I ever see a politician who buys thrift store clothes I'll vote for them, but something tells me that it's not going to happen. Not even in Canada.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
If the legislation actually allows him to veto the particular line with the effect of vetoing the entire bill unless congress accepts the line item veto by a majority, then I would think it constitutional.




:thumbup: awesome idea.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Edited by ScavengerType (03/06/09 10:02 PM)

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